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jane_doe
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So therefore you consider it defiling when other faiths believe otherwise? (I think this is your answer, but wanted to confirm for sure).
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JMM1957
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Just in case you don’t know, the dogma was defined specifically in 1854, but the belief existed since the early centuries. The idea wasn’t invented in 1854.
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Michael68
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Mary’s future role is predicted in Luke 2:34-35.
This proves to me Mary has and still has a very important role.
This proves to me Mary has and still has a very important role.
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Padres1969
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True, it wasn’t necessarily a new belief. But it wasn’t a required belief either. Hence no other church requires belief in it outside the RCC.
Mind you that’s not to say the idea is wrong or anything like that. Many in my own Church’s Anglo-Catholic tradition believe in the immaculate conception. It’s just not a required part of the overall faith because, and no disrespect intended toward the Holy Mother, it’s not particularly central to the faith.
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wmscott
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Cant get away from history and the facts.
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Tommy999
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Thanks the for reply and insights, Lenten_ashes. I appreciate your respectful tone and non-judgmental manner.Thanks for the clarification. This was a issue for me prior to conversion so interested in other’s opinions. If the Church is doings to cause people to stumble(even inadvertently) then she needs to correct herself on that. But when i went through RCIA the focus was 90% Jesus so I know that’s not the case now, but I do wonder if the Church has always done a good enough job in proper catechises in years past. I just had a long discussion with a older, dear protestant family member and he insists that the Church has been forced to reform from within. If you are catecized and you hear a guy on EWTN say to Jesus through Mary you don’t think anything of it - but if you are not you could easily misunderstand what he means by that and start exalting her to goddess like status. So while I do not disagree with the priest who said it, I wouldn’t say it myself because i would not want to be responsible for anyone else stumbling.
I think you are correct that in certain areas, there is a cultural aspect to it. I live in the southwest and some of the apparitions that have been approved by the Church as worthy of belief are placed in very high regard by many. And I do not know how beneficial that is, though I must admit that Mexico, in particular, was totally pagan prior to the Virgin of Guadalupe, and now it’s almost totally Catholic Christian. So much good did come out of them.
Overall, you have a healthy view of her, imo. I think she pointed us to her Son then, and will still do it now if we somehow get derailed. But we should not get derailed, or even come close to it over a Church practice, so it’s something to make note of and observe.
Pax
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Hatikvah
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Same here.
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susanlo
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I don’t know why Ambrose made that statement or why Augustine quoted him with the statement I first presented. I can see that this quote is from his commentary on Psalm 118, but I can’t find the full context. Do you have a link to the full writing?
I am wondering if in your above quote he is talking about actual sin and not Original or Hereditary sin. Ambrose was a few decades ahead of Augustine and the concept of Original Sin wasn’t fully created until Augustine’s time so that may be part of the reason. I know Ambrose spoke of hereditary sin in his writing On the Mysteries that was removed by foot washing. This was obviously written before Augustine’s writing on Original Sin. I am not an expert on the subject, but it looks to me like the statements were taken at different times in regards to the creation of the idea of Original Sin and the terminology may be different from what we would use today.
It is also possible that Ambrose spoke incorrectly or that Augustine misquoted the statement. I don’t really know. I do think I have read that Ambrose is known for stating that Mary was free of personal sin. Augustine elsewhere implies that Mary had inherited sinful flesh in his Exposition of Psalm 35 Chapter 14: “So then the sin of the Lord is that which was caused by sin; because He assumed flesh, of the same lump which had deserved death by sin. For to speak more briefly, Mary who was of Adam died for sin, Adam died for sin, and the Flesh of the Lord which was of Mary died to put away sin.” He was the one who officially created the understanding of Original Sin. I think the concept that Mary was born without this taint of Original Sin came a few centuries later as ideas continued to develop. newadvent.org/fathers/1801035.htm
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JMM1957
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I will go and find where the quote came from, it surely was embedded in a more lengthy letter somewhere.
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steve_b
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the angel Gabriel addresses Mary as full of grace. I would say she is a role model in “all” instances, in that she always did the will of God.
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***In Rev 12 ***John writes,
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman,c and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.
- c] = Mary
- the “woman” is also the woman of prophesy in Genesis 3:15
- her “offspring” = all those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to her son Jesus
H:
He also said one can’t find Christ outside the Catholic Church.
- news.va/en/news/pope-mass-on-feast-of-st-george-full-text
- romereports.com/pg155610-pope-s-mass-it-s-absurd-to-say-you-follow-christ-but-reject-the-church-en
- zenit.org/en/articles/pope-s-homily-at-mass-on-the-feast-of-the-baptism-of-the-lord
Remember when Jesus prayed John 17:20-23 ?
unity must be “perfect” NO divisions, No schisms etc etc
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It’s way more than that.
Jesus is saying His mother Mary, is NOW also John’s mother as well.
Jesus said from the cross, “Woman, behold your son; son, behold your mother.”
Is Mary John’s biological mother? No. Is John the son of Jesus? No. Why does Jesus make those statements?
John’s biological mother was named Salome, and Salome is the mother of Zebedee’s sons, of which John was one. Since Salome was there at the cross, why would Jesus from the Cross tell John that Mary was his mother? Salome was standing right there. yes Jesus WAS providing for His Mother’s care after His departure from this earth, HOWEVER, much more is going on. Mary, to whom He calls “Woman,” by being mother to Jesus she is also the mother of the Church, of which John is a member, and John is NOW Mary’s spiritual child, the offspring that God the Father had foretold in the Garden, the offspring of “the Woman”, who would have enmity placed between (her offspring) and the offspring of the serpent. Look again at ***Re: Rev 12 :17… ***above, ***and ***Gen 3:15.
Mary forever remains the Mother of Christ and mother of the Church , and she is forever in the plan of salvation.
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HelenRose
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As a former Protestant who is now a Catholic, I do not care if someone objects to my love for Mary. I only feel a certain sorrow knowing that they are missing out on the beauty of being aware of the love she has to offer.
I can only speak from my heart. I believe that Christ knows that we need a our spiritual Mother. When Jesus said behold thy Mother, I believe that Christ understood our need and I believe that Mary understood as well. We look to Mary in order to see Christ through Her eyes. No one understands Christ as well as His Loving Mother. She looked upon Him when he was a baby. She suffered with Him as only a mother could. I can turn to Her because as a woman, she is my friend, She understands my love for my children, She knows what it means to watch and see her child suffer and struggle. She, as a woman, understands my heart. I am grateful to my Lord and Savior, that He loves us and loves His Mother enough to have Her as our Mother as well.
As a Catholic, I know that Mary has no power of Her own. Her gift to us is the love that she felt toward Her Son. Just as the bride and groom in Cana turned to her, we can know that this gift is given to us as well.
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Hatikvah
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Lenten_ashes was asking for our opinions on this thread and, as someone else pointed out, was respectful about it. Protestants interpret the Church differently so it has no bearing. Maybe the Eastern Orthodox Church is what is being spoken of, or the Oriental Orthodox Church of Alexandria, or the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church?
It is against the rules to proselytize on NCR, too (not accusative, just a reminder):
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HelenRose
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It is my understanding that there is no word in Greek or Aramaic languages that mean brother in the sense that we understand the word. Kinsman is a more accurate translation. The “brothers” could very have been Joseph’s sons from a previous marriage or they could have been cousins.
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JMM1957
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IMO, the word “behold” is an interesting word for Jesus to use here at the foot of the cross. Behold means: See or observe or gaze upon (someone or something, especially of remarkable or impressive nature). I think Jesus was saying something very important here, not just telling John to take care of his mother.
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steve_b
Guest
Exactly. That was my point as well
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susanlo
Guest
- What I have learned is that this seems to be true with OT Hebrew. For example Genesis 14:14 uses the word: ’ā·ḥîw which is translated for different meanings of relationship.
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Which when Abram had heard, to wit, that his brother Lot was taken, he numbered of the servants born in his house, three hundred and eighteen well appointed: and pursued them to Dan.
International Standard Version
When Abram heard that his nephew had been taken prisoner, he gathered together 318 of his trained men, who had been born in his household, and they went out in pursuit as far as Dan.
biblehub.com/hebrew/achiv_251.htm
- In the NT Greek there are words for kinsman/cousin/relative. For example Luke 1:36 uses the term syngenis to mean cousin or relative
Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:
International Standard Version
And listen! Elizabeth, your relative, has herself conceived a son in her old age, this woman who was rumored to be barren is in her sixth month.
biblehub.com/greek/sungenis_4773.htm
- However in Mark 6:3 the words adelphos and adelphai are used to mean brother and sisters and always mean brother and sisters.
Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.
International Standard Version
This is the builder, the son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, isn’t it? His sisters are here with us, aren’t they?" And they were offended by him.
biblehub.com/greek/adelphos_80.htm
biblehub.com/greek/adelphai_79.htm
What I see from looking at the verses on BibleHub.com is that every time Jesus “brothers” are mentioned, the Greek word is similar to the word adelphos. A word like sungeneis or syngenis which means kinsmen is never used.
I do think that there is evidence in the early centuries that it was believed that Mary was a perpetual virgin despite evidence in the Bible such as:
Matthew 1:25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Luke 2:7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.
And in Psalm 69 it is written
8 I am a foreigner to my own family,
a stranger to my own mother’s children;
9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.
In John 2, the Apostles attribute Psalm 69:9 to Jesus when He overturned the money changers tables.
John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me."
I don’t feel that there is conclusive evidence to determine whether Mary had other children. It has never been a concern for me and something I rarely thought about until recent studies. What confuses me the most is why this makes a difference for Christianity at all.
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steve_b
Guest
That was not my intent, anymore than I though that was your intent…
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JMM1957
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This topic should probably be brought up in another thread, but since we are talking about Mary, mother of the Church, I thought I might bring it up here. I think I have a pretty good feel for how the responses will be from non-Catholics, specifically Protestants, but how do you view the Marian apparitions and how they relate to the Catholic belief in Mary’s important role in being Mother of the Church? Could it be that God is allowing these visions to occur so that it clarifies Mary’s motherhood of us from Scripture? I realize that its not only non-Catholics that have a difficult time with honoring Mary properly, but there are even Catholics that question some of the dogma’s of the Church.
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JMM1957
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As I read the whole Psalm 69 I don’t see it as a prophecy about the Messiah, it doesn’t seem to fit in many respects. I realize that in many cases prophecy has a dual meaning, for the immediate time and sometime in the future, but in many instances, a verse of OT Scripture is quoted and applied to someone in the NT, like Jesus or some other person, but the whole OT passage may not apply, as in this case.
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Lenten_ashes
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