Non-Catholic Christians...

[JRKH]

(Cont)

PS - Another question, and one that seems serious to me, is: "Do most Catholics understand the difference? And, if they don’t, does that mean that Mary is actually being worshipped (although such worship would be outside of accepted Catholic teaching) ?

I think that most do understand in their heart the difference though most might not ever be able to verbalize it very well. But when you consider that the core of our faith revolves around Christ in the Mass; that the most precious and holy sacrament we have is the Actual receiving of Christ Himself in the Eucharist; that not one of the 7 sacraments of the Church is a “Marion” sacrament, it should be pretty clear that Marion devotion - or devotion to any saint, is secondary to our worship of God, in the Trinity.

Thanks for reading the whole post.

And, I do enjoy reading the discussions. It is a different side to the Church than I saw as a child.

~ Minny

You are welcome. I’m glad that the forums are being helpful to you.

Peace
James

 

[kimmielittle]

Hiyas

That would be difficult, since as far as I know there is no organized church called “Disciples of Jesus”. Consequently, no church doctrine. And everyone in it is “in communion” with God since we are all His creation, and He is in us and we are in Him. This “church” is open to anyone with faith in God and who follows the teachings and example of Jesus. Which SHOULD include Catholics, Protestants, and even others who are not considered Christian by some. It is a “church” that is very inclusive, as Jesus was, rather than exclusive. We could also call it “Living The Gospel”.

Actually, I didn’t mention "Disciples of Jesus’

From my post

I’ll ask the same of you…I’m almost positive that there are “practicing” Disciples in Christ…who aren’t in communion with Church doctrine…Just as there are "practicing Catholics’ who aren’t in Communion with the Church… I was merely pointing this out.
How is that judgemental?

I did get their name wrong it’s not “in” …But Disciples ‘of’" Christ I apologize to them ]

A quick Google search provides these links

newadvent.org/cathen/05029b.htm

disciples.org/

They are very active.
Maybe, not as difficult as you think?
What we see, or read, can at times… be interpreted wrong …huh?

Peace be with you on your own journey with (and to) God.

And to you

 

[twinkletwinkle]

This is what the Word of God says on the matter:

The Bible tells us that “he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:6) Notice that this scripture says we are to ‘approach God.’ As the true and living God, Jehovah wants us to pray to him, not to someone else. Prayer is part of our worship and for this reason should be directed only to the Creator, Jehovah. (Matthew 4:10) Jesus Christ taught his followers to pray to his “Father in the heavens.” (Matthew 6:9) Jesus did not teach them to pray to himself, nor to his human mother Mary, nor to any other person. Jehovah is all-powerful, all-wise, perfect in justice and in love. So, why should we go to any lesser person? Further, the inspired apostle Paul assures us that God “is not far off from each one of us,” if we seek him in the right way.—Acts 17:27.

Jehovah requires us to recognize the position of his Son in His purpose and to offer all our prayers in his name. That is why **Jesus told his followers: “No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) **Jesus also said: “If you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name.” (John 16:23) For our prayers to be acceptable to God, then, we must pray to Jehovah God through his Son, that is, in the name of Jesus.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This is what the Word of God says on the matter:

The Bible tells us that “he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:6) Notice that this scripture says we are to ‘approach God.’ As the true and living God, Jehovah wants us to pray to him, not to someone else. Prayer is part of our worship and for this reason should be directed only to the Creator, Jehovah. (Matthew 4:10) Jesus Christ taught his followers to pray to his “Father in the heavens.” (Matthew 6:9) Jesus did not teach them to pray to himself, nor to his human mother Mary, nor to any other person. Jehovah is all-powerful, all-wise, perfect in justice and in love. So, why should we go to any lesser person? Further, the inspired apostle Paul assures us that God “is not far off from each one of us,” if we seek him in the right way.—Acts 17:27.

Jehovah requires us to recognize the position of his Son in His purpose and to offer all our prayers in his name. That is why **Jesus told his followers: “No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) **Jesus also said: “If you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name.” (John 16:23) For our prayers to be acceptable to God, then, we must pray to Jehovah God through his Son, that is, in the name of Jesus.

Then, by your logic and interpretation, we shouldn’t ask anyone to pray for us?

 

[LestWeForget]

Then, by your logic and interpretation, we shouldn’t ask anyone to pray for us?

He said how to pray, which is through Jesus. He is the only one we ask through for the Father to accept our prayers, not saying if you don’t mention that through Christ He won’t accept them. Other Christians can pray for you, that you may recover from sickness etc. He never said no one can pray for you.

Respectfully.

 

[JonNC]

He said how to pray, which is through Jesus. He is the only one we ask through for the Father to accept our prayers, not saying if you don’t mention that through Christ He won’t accept them. Other Christians can pray for you, that you may recover from sickness etc. He never said no one can pray for you.
Respectfully.

And as I understand it, that is exactly what Catholics do when they ask the Blessed Virgin and the saints in Heaven to intercede for them.

Jon

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

He said how to pray, which is through Jesus. He is the only one we ask through for the Father to accept our prayers, not saying if you don’t mention that through Christ He won’t accept them. Other Christians can pray for you, that you may recover from sickness etc. He never said no one can pray for you.

Respectfully.

Then there’s nothing wrong with asking those eternally alive in heaven to pray for us?

 

[LestWeForget]

Why would you? Does God hear you better? More meaningful? Then ask for all the people in Heaven to pray for you.

“This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him” (1 John 5:14-15)

Makes you wonder if God will hear one’s prayers if you don’t ask according to His will, and what is His will?

“Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6-7).

…which is only presenting requests to God, and I know Catholics don’t request to Mary, John, Paul, Peter, etc., but where in the Bible does it say that asking for prayers from these individuals will encourage God to listen to prayers?

Respectfully.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why would you? Does God hear you better? More meaningful? Then ask for all the people in Heaven to pray for you.

“This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him” (1 John 5:14-15)

Makes you wonder if God will hear one’s prayers if you don’t ask according to His will, and what is His will?

“Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6-7).

…which is only presenting requests to God, and I know Catholics don’t request to Mary, John, Paul, Peter, etc., but where in the Bible does it say that asking for prayers from these individuals will encourage God to listen to prayers?

Respectfully.

What is the difference of asking others to pray for you? Does God hear you better because you asked other Christians to pray for you? Is it more meaningful?

There is no difference.

**Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.**

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I quoted this particular part of your post as I think it is the crux of the issue: Where is the line between honoring and loving Mary for her role vs. stepping outside of Church teaching and worshipping her? That is the question that may be very difficult to answer, but one that each person should consider.

Thanks for your comments.

I’m going to attempt to answer that question from a Catholic Encyclopedia source:

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
There are several degrees of this worship:

• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the link which unites it with the person who is adored or venerated; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has a right to our homage — as being a symbol which reminds us of that person (see Vacant, Diet de théol. cath., s.v. Adoration, and authors cited in bibliography; also ADORATION; IDOLATRY; IMAGES; DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY).

Source

Continued…

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Continued from above…

It stands to reason that if Mary were divine or had God-like qualities (as some Protestants have judged by prayers or other reasons), she would be given the same honor as God according our terminology. Instead, Mary is given hyperdulia honor “subordinate” or “dependent” to God Himself. And if one did give Mary latria, he/she would be idolatrous and find no support within the Church. Simply, the Church doesn’t promote the very thing she condemns.

Protestants don’t have our terminology, only using latria, which probably causes the confusion. Given the explanations given by Catholics posters and legit sources, I can understand their frustrations. I hope this helps.

 

[LestWeForget]

You answered my question with the same question, I will disregard the rhetorical questioning. Who are the saints? Fellow Christians, who can hear you desire the prayers of the saints in a public or private manner, rather than passed away saints; only God hears your prayers(Unless it is a public prayer, then the congregation will obviously hear it as well). Resulting, in them praying for you in a manner pleasing to God, so He may be known of our requests. Asking for prayers from passed away saints that can’t hear you, nor have the authority to mediate your prayers between the Father and you? Hm.

By the way:

And as I understand it, that is exactly what Catholics do when they ask the Blessed Virgin and the saints in Heaven to intercede for them.

I could have sworn a man by the name of Jesus intercedes for us, not Mary or any saints.

 

[shondrea]

I do think it’s mostly a matter of a practicing Catholic being aware of HOW they’re honoring, so they don’t accidently cross the line.

When I think of Mary, I see her as my mother, the Queen. When i talk to her, I call her Mom XD If I had a mother on earth, I would love her and respect her and look forward to spending tie with her; which is how I see Mary.

 

[LestWeForget]

What is the difference of asking others to pray for you? Does God hear you better because you asked other Christians to pray for you? Is it more meaningful?

There is no difference.

You answered my question with the same question, I will disregard the rhetorical questioning. Who are the saints? Fellow Christians, who can hear you desire the prayers of the saints in a public or private manner, rather than passed away saints; only God hears your prayers(Unless it is a public prayer, then the congregation will obviously hear it as well). Resulting, in them praying for you in a manner pleasing to God, so He may be known of our requests. Asking for prayers from passed away saints that can’t hear you, nor have the authority to mediate your prayers between the Father and you? Hm.

By the way:

And as I understand it, that is exactly what Catholics do when they ask the Blessed Virgin and the saints in Heaven to intercede for them.

I could have sworn a man by the name of Jesus intercedes for us, not Mary or any saints.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

You answered my question with the same question, I will disregard the rhetorical questioning. Who are the saints? Fellow Christians, who can hear you desire the prayers of the saints in a public or private manner, rather than passed away saints; only God hears your prayers(Unless it is a public prayer, then the congregation will obviously hear it as well). Resulting, in them praying for you in a manner pleasing to God, so He may be known of our requests. Asking for prayers from passed away saints that can’t hear you, nor have the authority to mediate your prayers between the Father and you? Hm.

I worship a God of the living, not the dead. The saints are in Heaven where there’s no time, space, etc. limitations of the sort. The saints aren’t replacing Jesus as the Mediator between God and man–their mediating is subordinate and dependent on His Mediator-ship just as it is here on earth.

By the way:

I could have sworn a man by the name of Jesus intercedes for us, not Mary or any saints.

I could’ve sworn that no Catholic or Lutheran (like JonNC here) is making the claim that the communion saints has replaced Jesus i.e. what you are making a straw man argument. If you want to address what Catholics actually believe, see my posts (#50-51)in this thread.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You answered my question with the same question, I will disregard the rhetorical questioning. Who are the saints? Fellow Christians, who can hear you desire the prayers of the saints in a public or private manner, rather than passed away saints; only God hears your prayers(Unless it is a public prayer, then the congregation will obviously hear it as well). Resulting, in them praying for you in a manner pleasing to God, so He may be known of our requests. Asking for prayers from passed away saints that can’t hear you, nor have the authority to mediate your prayers between the Father and you? Hm.

By the way:

I could have sworn a man by the name of Jesus intercedes for us, not Mary or any saints.

**Mar 12:26 And as concerning the dead that they rise again have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Mar 9:4 (9:3) And there appeared to them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.**

He is the God of the living, ‘saints’ in heaven are not dead. When Elias and Moses appeared to Christ, before the Apostles, they knew the sacrafice He was to make. In other words, they knew what was happening on earth and they were not dead. They were a part of the cloud of witnesses who lay aside every weight and sin which surrounds us.

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Who were the four LIVING creatures and twenty four ancients who fell down before the Lamb with the golden vials of odours, which are the prayers of the saints?

Now, for your last statement, you really should provide the scriptures showing your interpretation is correct. Specifically show me the scriptures telling each and every individual they have the authority to interpret scriptures. Then show me the assurance, written in scriptures, that a single individual has the authority to proclaim their interpretation as correct over any other, making that interpretation infallible. We are to beware of those unlearned, unstable and unwise that wrest scriptures, even to their own destruction.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Catholics interpret scriptures in the traditions, which we are to hold too, whether by word or epistle, of the living Church, which is the pillar and ground of truth and the place where the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known to us.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

**1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he made in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
**

I found it ironic you chose to say you could’ve ‘sworn’ something on these forums. That in itself seems to be against scriptures.

**Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Jas 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.**

 

[chaunceygardner]

Continued from above…

It stands to reason that if Mary were divine or had God-like qualities (as some Protestants have judged by prayers or other reasons), she would be given the same honor as God according our terminology. Instead, Mary is given hyperdulia honor “subordinate” or “dependent” to God Himself. And if one did give Mary latria, he/she would be idolatrous and find no support within the Church. Simply, the Church doesn’t promote the very thing she condemns.

Protestants don’t have our terminology, only using latria, which probably causes the confusion. Given the explanations given by Catholics posters and legit sources, I can understand their frustrations. I hope this helps.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut on this topic in your two posts, of which I quoted from the second. It does clearly explain the official position on the veneration of saints, relics, etc. But I think the danger is not in the Church’s teaching but in how people truly perceive these things. One line from the Catholic Encyclopedia stood out for me:

There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent.

Does everyone really understand that? We can see people who adore and venerate movie stars and sports heroes (I know a woman who taught Religious Ed. who literally had a shrine to Elvis in her home and made regular “pilgrimages” to Graceland; and several people who have spaces or even rooms in their homes that look like shrines to their favorite team or player). It is not unreasonable to think that some Catholics may go “overboard” in their perceptions and actions regarding Mary, Saints and relics as well.

How many Catholics actually have read or know what Church teaching is about this? Do people really understand the “subordination” aspect? In my experience, it seems that line is blurred for many people and the distinction lost. This may be where the ideas are coming from that some observers have; not from teaching or doctrine, but from the behavior and language of some Catholics.

Thanks again for your excellent review of Church teaching on this question.

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut on this in your two posts, of which I quoted from the second. It does clearly explain the official position on the veneration of saints, relics, etc. But I think the danger is not in the Church’s teaching but in how people truly perceive these things. One line from the Catholic Encyclopedia stood out for me:

Does everyone really understand that? We can see people who adore and venerate movie stars and sports heroes (I know a woman who taught Religious Ed. who literally had a shrine to Elvis in her home and made regular “pilgrimages” to Graceland; and several people who have spaces or even rooms in their homes that look like shrines to their favorite team or player). It is not unreasonable to think that some Catholics may go “overboard” in their perceptions and actions regarding Mary, Saints and relics as well.

How many Catholics actually have read or know what Church teaching is about this? Do people really understand the “subordination” aspect? In my experience, it seems that line is blurred for many people and the distinction lost. This may be where the ideas that some observers have are coming from; not from teaching or doctrine, but from the behavior and language of some Catholics.

Thanks again for your excellent review of Church teaching on this topic.

These are legitimate concerns and they are the very reason why the Church’s teachings are so specific. Such clearly documented teachings provide a touchstone for both catholics and non-catholics in trying to understand catholic doctrine and practice.
As to how many “don’t understand” church teaching, I suspect most do (at least those I know). They probably couldn’t or wouldn’t use these precise terms but they know it in their hearts.
And here is one reason why non-catholics get teh wrong impression. They see somethihng that looks queer and possibly sinful to them and when they ask a catholic about it the answer is not precise enough to clear up the matter. If the non-catholic pursues the matter enough to seek out actual church teaching they can get clear and precise answers to thier question. If they do not, and just rely on what they “see and hear”, possibly from poorly catechized catholics or from non-catholic sources, they will continue to have the wrong idea about Catholic Teachings.

I’m glad that CAF is available to answer these questions for you and to help us (catholics) to learn our faith better as well as to be able to express it better.

As for people who “venerate” movie stars etc, I doubt if any of these people look to these movie stars to judge them at death so such veneration would hardly rise to the level of “Worship”.

Peace
James

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Where do they get the idea that Catholics: pray to and/or worship Mary and/or Saints and/or the Pope and/or statues? How long has this “theory” been around and who started it?

They get the idea from two sources:

1. Misinformed and misinforming Protestants
2. Misinformed and misinforming Catholics.

 

[schaick]

Just as they mix up “pray for us” with “pray to” they also mix up “honor and remembrance” with “worship”.

Hey to all my detractors who say I don’t agree with anything and say I always post dissent, look at that!

LOL!! No it is pray for the Saints!

Ephesians 1
15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way

Martin Luther, “Letter to Erfurt evangelists July 10, 1522,” What Luther Says, Vol. 1, 1253.

“I beseech in Christ that your preachers forbear entering upon questions concerning the saints in heaven and the deceased, and I ask you to turn the attention of people away from these matters in view of the fact…that they are neither profitable nor necessary for salvation. This is also reason why God decided not to let us know anything about His dealings with the deceased. Surely he is not committing a sin who does not call upon any saint but only clings firmly to the one mediator, Jesus Christ.”

Surely he is not committing a sin who does not call upon any saint but only clings firmly to the one mediator, Jesus Christ