Non-Catholic Christians...

[chaunceygardner]

These are legitimate concerns and they are the very reason why the Church’s teachings are so specific. Such clearly documented teachings provide a touchstone for both catholics and non-catholics in trying to understand catholic doctrine and practice.
As to how many “don’t understand” church teaching, I suspect most do (at least those I know). They probably couldn’t or wouldn’t use these precise terms but they know it in their hearts.
And here is one reason why non-catholics get teh wrong impression. They see somethihng that looks queer and possibly sinful to them and when they ask a catholic about it the answer is not precise enough to clear up the matter. If the non-catholic pursues the matter enough to seek out actual church teaching they can get clear and precise answers to thier question. If they do not, and just rely on what they “see and hear”, possibly from poorly catechized catholics or from non-catholic sources, they will continue to have the wrong idea about Catholic Teachings.

I’m glad that CAF is available to answer these questions for you and to help us (catholics) to learn our faith better as well as to be able to express it better.

As for people who “venerate” movie stars etc, I doubt if any of these people look to these movie stars to judge them at death so such veneration would hardly rise to the level of “Worship”.

Peace
James

I highlighted in your quote what may be another big part of the misconception. I would say (and I think there is data to support this) that Catholics are generally more poorly catechized than many Protestants (and certainly than our Jewish friends are). You make an excellent point that when a non-Catholic questions their Catholic friend about their perceptions and what certain practices mean, the Catholic is often unable to give a coherent, well stated response. The Church as an institution can explain its beliefs, but individual members have a difficult time. This also applies to discussing anything from the Bible. We see evidence of that in a lot questions on CAF. Many Protestants are raised to be able to defend their faith, Catholics generally not.

Why this happened and how it can be corrected is a whole other thread. But it certainly impacts the main question on this one.

 

[Teneas]

You answered my question with the same question, I will disregard the rhetorical questioning. Who are the saints? Fellow Christians, who can hear you desire the prayers of the saints in a public or private manner, rather than passed away saints; only God hears your prayers(Unless it is a public prayer, then the congregation will obviously hear it as well). Resulting, in them praying for you in a manner pleasing to God, so He may be known of our requests. Asking for prayers from passed away saints that can’t hear you, nor have the authority to mediate your prayers between the Father and you? Hm.

By the way:

I could have sworn a man by the name of Jesus intercedes for us, not Mary or any saints.

I pray you never ask another person on earth to pray for you, or you will not be honoring that which you believe.

 

[JRKH]

I highlighted in your quote what may be another big part of the misconception. I would say (and I think there is data to support this) that Catholics are generally more poorly catechized than many Protestants (and certainly than our Jewish friends are). You make an excellent point that when a non-Catholic questions their Catholic friend about their perceptions and what certain practices mean, the Catholic is often unable to give a coherent, well stated response. The Church as an institution can explain its beliefs, but individual members have a difficult time. This also applies to discussing anything from the Bible. We see evidence of that in a lot questions on CAF. Many Protestants are raised to be able to defend their faith, Catholics generally not.

Why this happened and how it can be corrected is a whole other thread. But it certainly impacts the main question on this one.

I suppose the first and simplest thing is to try and teach catholics that “I Don’t Know” is a perfectly acceptable answer to questions they cannot explain. This at least would prevent the non-catholic from getting bad information.
Then they could, and should follow up, “I Don’t Know”, with, “But I’ll Find Out”.
A talk with their priest, and or a quick check on the web will give them a good response to the questioner very possibly along with “tracts”, that is documentation that explains the belief, the practice or devotion.

The worst thing we can do is - “shoot from the hip” and give poor answers.

Peace
James

 

[schaick]

This thread has got me thinking about the difference between mediator and intercesser as put forth in Scripture.

intercessor represents a lowly person to a high authority-us and who ever wants to speak in our brhalf

mediator represents the high authority to the lowly person-us, Jesus, GOD

Intercesser:
Hebrews 7
24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Romans 8
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

Romans 11
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Mediator:
1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

Hebrews 8
6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

Hebrews 9
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

[kimmielittle]

Hiyas

It amazes me that many who would criticize about Catholics and prayer, don’t understand the Sign of The Cross Prayer

We open our prayers with: Direction ]

In the Name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit.

our prayers ]

and we seal our prayers.

In the Name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit…Amen.

I hope this helps

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This thread has got me thinking about the difference between mediator and intercesser as put forth in Scripture.

intercessor represents a lowly person to a high authority-us and who ever wants to speak in our brhalf

mediator represents the high authority to the lowly person-us, Jesus, GOD

The problem with the Protestant distinction it makes it unecessary, if not forbidden, to even ask another person to pray for us. There is ONLY one divinity. Saints, in heaven or on earth, are not divine as God is.

There also seems to be some confusion in the Protestant understanding of praying and asking the saints in heaven to intercede for us. With the exception of the confiteor, said during the Mass, there is no requirement for Catholics to pray to any particular saint.

Confiteor:

I confess to almighty God, and you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned of my own faults, in my thoughts and words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do, and I ask Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels, and saints and you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

 

[Roblox84]

I think a lot of these arguments about Catholicism are basically because a lot of protestant preachers probably see the Catholics as a threat to their religion and taking away attendance due to the greater numbers of Catholics in this world. The truth is, and everyone will definately agree with me is that you don’t attack non value targets. If Catholicism was so unimportant and so wrong then people would simply ignore it and never bring it up. So anytime someone attacks the Catholic church it just shows that they feel that we are right, but they just choose not to believe it due to so much indoctrination.

 

[Roblox84]

This is what the Word of God says on the matter:

The Bible tells us that “he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:6) Notice that this scripture says we are to ‘approach God.’ As the true and living God, Jehovah wants us to pray to him, not to someone else. Prayer is part of our worship and for this reason should be directed only to the Creator, Jehovah. (Matthew 4:10) Jesus Christ taught his followers to pray to his “Father in the heavens.” (Matthew 6:9) Jesus did not teach them to pray to himself, nor to his human mother Mary, nor to any other person. Jehovah is all-powerful, all-wise, perfect in justice and in love. So, why should we go to any lesser person? Further, the inspired apostle Paul assures us that God “is not far off from each one of us,” if we seek him in the right way.—Acts 17:27.

Jehovah requires us to recognize the position of his Son in His purpose and to offer all our prayers in his name. That is why **Jesus told his followers: “No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) **Jesus also said: “If you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name.” (John 16:23) For our prayers to be acceptable to God, then, we must pray to Jehovah God through his Son, that is, in the name of Jesus.

It would be for the same reason that you would ask your mom or dad pray for you in a time of need. And why would this be so bad? Please tell me.

 

[JonNC]

I could have sworn a man by the name of Jesus intercedes for us, not Mary or any saints.

By that understanding of “intercessory prayer”, you must then reject any request for others to pray for you, or that of a sick friend or relative, or for any reason. If I pray for you, do you believe that I am I am trying to take on the role of Christ? Surely not.
Why would you then think that if I ask you to pray for me I am assuming you can takeon the role of Christ.
Look, Catholics believe that the saints in Heaven can hear request for prayer, just like those alive and around us can. I find scant scriptural support for that, but I certainly don’t think they are confused as to the role of Christ, and the role of fellow Christians here, or in the Church Triumphant.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Look, Catholics believe that the saints in Heaven can hear request for prayer, just like those alive and around us can. I find scant scriptural support for that, but I certainly don’t think they are confused as to the role of Christ, and the role of fellow Christians here, or in the Church Triumphant.

Jon

Hey Jon!

I have a question on this point. What do you make of Heb. 12:1?

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”

The Apostle has just finished an extensive accounting of saints who acted by faith. Then he inserts that word “therefore”, which my separated brethren taught me “look and see what it is there for”. It appears that, based upon the examples of their lives, we should run as they did.

Would you agree that all these in Ch. 11 are in heaven?

If not, how are the “witnesses”?

I have had many on CAF tell me that the dead are “asleep”. This certainly seems consistent with Scripture. However, how is a sleeping person a witness?

Might the saints in heaven be in a different state than others, who are “asleep” and cannot “witness”?

 

[JonNC]

Hey Jon!

I have a question on this point. What do you make of Heb. 12:1?

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”

The Apostle has just finished an extensive accounting of saints who acted by faith. Then he inserts that word “therefore”, which my separated brethren taught me “look and see what it is there for”. It appears that, based upon the examples of their lives, we should run as they did.

Would you agree that all these in Ch. 11 are in heaven?

If not, how are the “witnesses”?

I have had many on CAF tell me that the dead are “asleep”. This certainly seems consistent with Scripture. However, how is a sleeping person a witness?

Might the saints in heaven be in a different state than others, who are “asleep” and cannot “witness”?

The Lutheran Confessions agree that the saints in heaven do pray for the Church Militant, and I agree with that assessment.
I think, at least from what I would perceive a Catholic POV to be, that Luke 15:7, “I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.” would be an even more convincing argument that the saints in heaven are aware of specific events in the lives of the those of us in the Church Militant.

Jon