Non Catholic Interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Bottom line is:1Cor 3:13-15, is the catholic interpretation of purgatory; no one else’s! Does this make it right if the Bible does not speak of purging? And who the Rock is(not Dwayne Johnson) is still up for debate! And He changed Peter’s name early on, didn’t He, or did He do it twice? And it ws actually before the crucifixion!

Bottom line, who are you to tell Catholics that they can’t interpret the Bible as they feel the Spirit guiding them? At best you can only agree to disagree. To tell us we’re wrong is a violation of your own doctrine.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Now, for ANY Protestant, if your interpretation is correct it must be historical because the Church is historical.

Please show me the extra-Biblical evidence-sermons or lectures or councils- from the first 300 years of Christianity that demonstrate your “infallible” interpretation of the text?

If the Church did and believed as you say, it should be no problem for you to find, in fact the evidence should be manifest.

 

[Nicea325]

Bottom line is:1Cor 3:13-15, is the catholic interpretation of purgatory; no one else’s! Does this make it right if the Bible does not speak of purging? And who the Rock is(not Dwayne Johnson) is still up for debate! And He changed Peter’s name early on, didn’t He, or did He do it twice? And it ws actually before the crucifixion!

Bottomline is that you are hoping we accept your poor understanding of the origins Purgatrory and its relation to the Jews before Christianity

I’ll ask again:

If at some point the doctrine of Purgatory was pulled out of a clerical hat, where are the records of protests?

 

[Nicea325]

For once, I would like sombody to explain this to me.
Many Protestants say the it is Peter’s confession - not Peter himself.

Please break this down for me and show me how this is possible. After all - the onus is on the non-Catholic to prove this - not the Catholic. We take the text at face value.

I have asked the same in the past. Is it possible to separate his confession from his own human identity? Does that make sense?

So his confession is separate from himself only in that passage and no where else?

 

[Javl]

So, any man, called and ordained by God, can hold the keys?

No. The Keys were given directly to Peter, and his successors, alone.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Truth be told, we should ALL(all of us who are in Christ) feed His sheep!

In a way, yes. But when Jesus told this to Peter alone He was telling Peter that he was in charge.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[elvisman]

I have asked the same in the past. Is it possible to separate his confession from his own human identity? Does that make sense?

So his confession is separate from himself only in that passage and no where else?

Exactly.
And, Jesus never says, "You are Kepha and on your confession I will build my church."
The Greek word for confession is Homologeo (εξομολόγηση, ομολογία) - and that word is not found anywhere in Matt. 16.

**There are *other *Protestants who say that the rock was Jesus. So, which Protestant group is correct? The ones who claim it was Peter’s confession or the one’s who claim it is Jesus?

 

[Javl]

TO ALL:

The subject of Purgatory has been the subject of various threads that have been on CAF. It has been reviewed many times. For those who know nothing of the origins of the Church’s doctrine, I will repeat it here.

The idea of a place for the dead to be cleansed before entering Heaven originated with the Israelites. They considered it a “Holding Place” where souls are purified before entering Heaven ( Early Jewish historians, such as Philo and Josephus, have written about it ). To speed up the process of purification, the Jews say a prayer for the dead, the Kaddish. In the 2d book of Maccabees ( which Protestants reject but Catholics and Jews accept as scripture ), Judas Maccabbee states “it’s a Holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead”.

Since Christianity is a fulfillment and continuation of Judaism, the Catholic Church has continued, defined, and expanded on this “Holding Place”. Souls destined for Heaven are purged ( purified ) in this place, therefore the term “Purgatory” is used. This term means “to purge, clean, purify”.

Almost all Jews of today, including Orthodox Jews, believe in this holding place and say prayers for their departed loved ones. So now you can see that Purgatory is not something that was made up by the Catholic Church, but a continuation of the Jewish thought of a holding place.

There is documentation of events that have occured to prove the actual existence of Purgatory. Some of these events have been attested to by non-Catholics.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zdon011]

Zdon011 seems to tell us this,“Christ and the Apostles talked in Aramaic, not Greek. In Aramaic, Christ would have used the word ‘kepha’ to refer to both St Peter and ‘the rock’. So that argument is moot.”

That is something a Protestant would say.

Ignatias, I’m supporting the Catholic interpretation, just in case you’re unclear about where I’m coming from That ‘Aramaic kepha’ argument straight from a Catholic tract at a local Catholic church, so I don’t know why you call it ‘something a Protestant would say’. It supports the Catholic interpretation, because it destroys the Protestant argument that Christ used separate words to refer to ‘Petros’ and the ‘petra’.

Blessings,
zdon

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Nicea325
I have asked the same in the past. Is it possible to separate his confession from his own human identity? Does that make sense?

So his confession is separate from himself only in that passage and no where else?

Exactly.
And, Jesus never says, "You are Kepha and on your confession I will build my church."
The Greek word for confession is Homologeo (εξομολόγηση, ομολογία) - and that word is not found anywhere in Matt. 16.

**There are *other ***Protestants who say that the rock was Jesus. So, *which *Protestant group is correct? The ones who claim it was Peter’s confession or the one’s who claim it is Jesus?

elvisman,

One of the many errors of private interpretation and due time another odd interpretation will arise.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

And yet, the catholics put forth the idea that John 20:20-23, justifies going to a mortal man for confession; and 1Corinthians 3:13-15 justifies purgatory!

*Y’got that wrong. The Church *did not read the New Testament and then decide what to teach. The New Testament is based upon the beliefs of the living, teaching Catholic Church.
The Church’s doctrines are contained in the NT, either expressed or implied, because the NT was written by the Church in the course of her life during the first Christian century. She eventually selected 27 of her own writings, canonized them, and named them the New Testament. She joined them to the 46 ‘books’ of the Greek Septuagint inherited from Jesus and the Apostles that she also canonized and named the Old Testament. Her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named ta Biblia, The Church was already nearly 400 years old at the time. The Church wrote what she believed, and believed what she wrote.

You (and others) twist the Scriptures to give them meanings the sacred authors never intended.

Peace to all, Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Ignatias, I’m supporting the Catholic interpretation, just in case you’re unclear about where I’m coming from That ‘Aramaic kepha’ argument straight from a Catholic tract at a local Catholic church, so I don’t know why you call it ‘something a Protestant would say’. It supports the Catholic interpretation, because it destroys the Protestant argument that Christ used separate words to refer to ‘Petros’ and the ‘petra’.

Blessings,
zdon

Are you assuming that every statement in every “tract” left in a Catholic Church is the authentic teaching of the Church? Look to authentic sources to find the authentic teachings.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Documents of Vatican II, the Decrees of the Council of Trent – and others – there you will find the authentic teaching of the Church. Unless the “Tract” quotes a source of authentic Catholic teaching, it’s questionable.

Bear in mind always when reading the New Testament that the Catholic Church wrote it.
Any interpretation that is not in agreement with what the Church teaches is in error.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Nicea325]

*Y’got that wrong. The Church *did not read the New Testament and then decide what to teach. The New Testament is based upon the beliefs of the living, teaching Catholic Church.
The Church’s doctrines are contained in the NT, either expressed or implied, because the NT was written by the Church in the course of her life during the first Christian century. She eventually selected 27 of her own writings, canonized them, and named them the New Testament. She joined them to the 46 ‘books’ of the Greek Septuagint inherited from Jesus and the Apostles that she also canonized and named the Old Testament. Her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named ta Biblia, The Church was already nearly 400 years old at the time. The Church wrote what she believed, and believed what she wrote.

You (and others) twist the Scriptures to give them meanings the sacred authors never intended.

Peace to all, Jim Dandy

Precisely why there exists thousands upon thousands of sects,denominations,non-denominations,etc due to everyone believing he or she is an expert theologian. Pure madness and insanity.

 

[1beleevr]

**Actually - Nicea325 **already pointed out to you in Post 223 that prayers for the purification of the dead go all the way back to the OT and this is still practiced by Orthodox Jews today.

**For you to keep insisting that we onlly get this belief from 1 Cor 3:13-15 **is totally bogus and is a blatant misrepresentation of our beliefs.

Actually, if you read my post, I did not mention praying for the dead, in conjunction with 1 Cor 3:13-15, I was saying that this is the verse you guys use to justify purgatory! Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

 

[1beleevr]

In a way, yes. But when Jesus told this to Peter alone He was telling Peter that he was in charge.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

With all due respect to your reigion, and the magisterium, I know that at the time Jesus was speaking to Peter. But in today’s world, new Christians and even non believers need to be fed! I am acting as a mentor for two young Christian men right now, and so I feel like I am “feeding” them!

 

[1beleevr]

*Y’got that wrong. The Church *did not read the New Testament and then decide what to teach. The New Testament is based upon the beliefs of the living, teaching Catholic Church.
The Church’s doctrines are contained in the NT, either expressed or implied, because the NT was written by the Church in the course of her life during the first Christian century. She eventually selected 27 of her own writings, canonized them, and named them the New Testament. She joined them to the 46 ‘books’ of the Greek Septuagint inherited from Jesus and the Apostles that she also canonized and named the Old Testament. Her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named ta Biblia, The Church was already nearly 400 years old at the time. The Church wrote what she believed, and believed what she wrote.

You (and others) twist the Scriptures to give them meanings the sacred authors never intended.

Peace to all, Jim Dandy

If John 20:20-23 does not specifically state that we are to visit a mortal man for confession, then how could I twist it to make it not say that? Do you also believe that 1John 1:9 speaks to going to a priest for forgiveness? “If we confess our sins to Him, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us of all unrighteousness!” Can a priest cleanse us of all unrighteousness? In 1Cor 3:13-15, what are the “works” that will be tested by fire? I think that to some degree, everybody “twists” scripture to fit their own interpretation!

 

[elvisman]

Actually, if you read my post, I did not mention praying for the dead, in conjunction with 1 Cor 3:13-15, I was saying that this is the verse you guys use to justify purgatory! Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

And if you had read my thread, you would have seen that this ALL connects to the Purgatory doctrine.

---

You keep insisting that we only get the doctrine of Purgatory from *****1 Cor 3:13-15. Do your homework, my friend.

*******In ***2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, *“… *for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.” Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be *“handed over to the prison guard and will not be released *until we have paid the last penny.”
There is NO release from Hell and it isn’t Heaven – so tell me, what is Jesus talking about?

Matt. 12:32** states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come**”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.**

---

ALL of these verses allude to Purgatory in addition to 1 Cor 3:13-15 . . .

 

[1beleevr]

TO ALL:

The subject of Purgatory has been the subject of various threads that have been on CAF. It has been reviewed many times. For those who know nothing of the origins of the Church’s doctrine, I will repeat it here.

The idea of a place for the dead to be cleansed before entering Heaven originated with the Israelites. They considered it a “Holding Place” where souls are purified before entering Heaven ( Early Jewish historians, such as Philo and Josephus, have written about it ). To speed up the process of purification, the Jews say a prayer for the dead, the Kaddish. In the 2d book of Maccabees ( which Protestants reject but Catholics and Jews accept as scripture ), Judas Maccabbee states “it’s a Holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead”.

Since Christianity is a fulfillment and continuation of Judaism, the Catholic Church has continued, defined, and expanded on this “Holding Place”. Souls destined for Heaven are purged ( purified ) in this place, therefore the term “Purgatory” is used. This term means “to purge, clean, purify”.

Almost all Jews of today, including Orthodox Jews, believe in this holding place and say prayers for their departed loved ones. So now you can see that Purgatory is not something that was made up by the Catholic Church, but a continuation of the Jewish thought of a holding place.

There is documentation of events that have occured to prove the actual existence of Purgatory. Some of these events have been attested to by non-Catholics.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Okay, so I’m going to throw a big fat wrench into this argument Orthodox Jews do not believe in Jesus, or for that matter, the New Testament! So how can their souls go to a "holding place! as you call it, if John 14:6 is true(and we know it is). And if we are to be resurrected, as Christ was, and receive a glorified body, can our souls be separated from our mortal bodies, even though dead? Would the soul rejoin the corpse, after purgatory? If you believe so closely many Jewish traditions, then why don’t you observe the Sabbath on Saturday(actually from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday) ?

 

[1beleevr]

And if you had read my thread, you would have seen that this ALL connects to the Purgatory doctrine.

---

You keep insisting that we only get the doctrine of Purgatory from ***1 Cor 3:13-15. Do your homework, my friend.

*****In *****2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, *“… *for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.” Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be *“handed over to the prison guard and will not be released *until we have paid the last penny.”
There is NO release from Hell and it isn’t Heaven – so tell me, what is Jesus talking about?

Matt. 12:32** states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come**”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

---

ALL of these verses allude to Purgatory in addition to 1 Cor 3:13-15 . . .

How the heck can you use Matthew 12:32 to ustify purgatory?

 

[PRmerger]

If you believe so closely many Jewish traditions, then why don’t you observe the Sabbath on Saturday(actually from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday) ?

Because we follow what the Apostles taught and did.