Non Catholic Interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19

[elvisman]

If John 20:20-23 does not specifically state that we are to visit a mortal man for confession, then how could I twist it to make it not say that? Do you also believe that 1John 1:9 speaks to going to a priest for forgiveness? “If we confess our sins to Him, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us of all unrighteousness!” Can a priest cleanse us of all unrighteousness? In 1Cor 3:13-15, what are the “works” that will be tested by fire? I think that to some degree, everybody “twists” scripture to fit their own interpretation!

Well, you’re right about ONE thing: Everybody DOES twist scripture to fir their own interpretation. Everyone - except for the Catholic Church, who wrote it in the first place.

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The Bible doesn’t call any other Church other than the Catholic Church, “the pillar and foundation of truth.” The ecclesiastical community which you attend doesn’t have that moniker -only Christ’s Church does. The ONLY Church he established – the Catholic Church.

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In John 20:20-23, Jesus tells the Apostles that he is giving them the power to forgive sins or hold them bound. He doesn’t give that power to you or me – unless we are ordained by the successors of the Apostles (the Bishops).

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**Three times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound. This is not a something that Jesus took lightly. In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
*****(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” ***
**And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

**The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam. The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins. **

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**Many Protestants will have you believe that Jesus was merely telling them that they now had the power to recognize sins – but that is NOT what he said (Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained). The Greek word used here for the word “forgive” is aphiemi, which means: * to send away, to send forth, yield up, to expire, to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit.

The practice of confessing your sins to the Church is an ancient one that goes all the way back to the Apostles themselves. We see this in the 1st century document, the Didache (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles), where it emphatically states the necessity of confessing our sins to the Church:
“Confess your sins in Church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . , On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” ***(Didache 4:14,14:1 [A.D.70]).

 

[elvisman]

How the heck can you use Matthew 12:32 to ustify purgatory?

Matt: 12:32 states emphatically:
"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

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In heaven, we are NOT forgiven - wwe enter CLEAN - FORGIVEN. Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING unclean can enter heaven.

Let me ask you then - WHERE do we get forgiven/cleansed in the “age to come”??

 

[elvisman]

Okay, so I’m going to throw a big fat wrench into this argument Orthodox Jews do not believe in Jesus, or for that matter, the New Testament! So how can their souls go to a "holding place! as you call it, if John 14:6 is true(and we know it is). And if we are to be resurrected, as Christ was, and receive a glorified body, can our souls be separated from our mortal bodies, even though dead? Would the soul rejoin the corpse, after purgatory? If you believe so closely many Jewish traditions, then why don’t you observe the Sabbath on Saturday(actually from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday) ?

You know something – my heart really goes out to you. Your ignorance of Christianity stems from your ignorance of our Jewish roots.

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The Jews believe in Sheol – a place of darkness which is a holding place where the wicked AND the righteous go.

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As for the reunion of our body and soul – they will be united in glory in at the end of time.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Eastern Orthodox hold that position as well.

No one can make a confession of faith apart from himself. Duh. “Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father who is in heaven.” God the Father made this revelation to a person; his name was Peter. And Jesus, who was God, was speaking to Peter when he gave him the keys of the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose – not to his confession (double duh). Peter’s confession emanated from the person of Peter. They cannot be separated. “You are Rock ( Kepha) and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my church . . .”

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[1beleevr]

Because we follow what the Apostles taught and did.

Well, hello stranger; long time no hear! So the apostles observed the Sabbath on what day, Sunday? Were ther designated days of the week in Genesis, when God established the Sabbath? You know it’s the only Commandment with 'remember" in it?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Actually, if you read my post, I did not mention praying for the dead, in conjunction with 1 Cor 3:13-15, I was saying that this is the verse you guys use to justify purgatory! Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

Catholics do not use the New Testament to justify Purgatory. Purgatory is in the NT because the Church taught it. Did you read what I just posted? The New Testament is based upon the teaching Church, not the other way around!

Here’s what I said. Pay attention please.–quote–

Y’got that wrong. The Church did not read the New Testament and then decide what to teach. The New Testament is based upon the beliefs of the living, teaching Catholic Church.
The Church’s doctrines are contained in the NT, either expressed or implied, because the NT was written by the Church in the course of her life during the first Christian century. ***She eventually selected 27 of her own writings, canonized them, and named them the New Testament. ***She joined them to the 46 ‘books’ of the Greek Septuagint inherited from Jesus and the Apostles that she also canonized and named the Old Testament. Her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named ta Biblia, The Church was already nearly 400 years old at the time. The Church wrote what she believed, and believed what she wrote.

You (and others) twist the Scriptures to give them meanings the sacred authors never intended.
–end quote –

Peace to all, Jim Dandy

 

[Nicea325]

Actually, if you read my post, I did not mention praying for the dead, in conjunction with 1 Cor 3:13-15, I was saying that this is the verse you guys use to justify purgatory! Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

Sorry,but it is you alone who believes the RCC only uses 1 Cor 3:13-15 to justify the doctrine of Purgatory,not any Catholic or the church. I asked you a question in regards to Purgatory and you have yet to answer it.

If at some point the doctrine of Purgatory was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it? Where are the records of protests?

 

[Javl]

Okay, so I’m going to throw a big fat wrench into this argument Orthodox Jews do not believe in Jesus, or for that matter, the New Testament! So how can their souls go to a "holding place! as you call it, if John 14:6 is true(and we know it is). And if we are to be resurrected, as Christ was, and receive a glorified body, can our souls be separated from our mortal bodies, even though dead? Would the soul rejoin the corpse, after purgatory? If you believe so closely many Jewish traditions, then why don’t you observe the Sabbath on Saturday(actually from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday) ?

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist with that Saturday remark? If so, this thread is NOT the place to discuss it. The thread “Info on SDA” discusses it.

Also, it seem like you have mis-read and mis-understood my post on the Subject of Purgatory. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill and are building straw men and sand castles.

Whether or not the Jews believe in Jesus is besides the point. This “holding place” has been and still is part of Jewish theology and belief which is far older than Christianity. The Jews hold nothing sacred unless it was given by God, and it is in their scripture, which you reject.

Keep in mind that Jesus was a Jew. He was neither Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. He kept and honored many Jewish traditions which have been passed on to and appear in Christianity. Our origin is Jewish.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Dokimas]

I have asked the same in the past. Is it possible to separate his confession from his own human identity? Does that make sense?

So his confession is separate from himself only in that passage and no where else?

Of course our confession is not our identity. I’m not god if I say Jesus is God. Believing Jesus is God is a foundation to salvation. My confession does nothing for anyone.

If a person’s identity was his confessions then the abusive husband really loves his wife.

 

[Dokimas]

You know something – my heart really goes out to you. Your ignorance of Christianity stems from your ignorance of our Jewish roots.

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**The Jews believe in Sheol **– a place of darkness which is a holding place where the wicked AND the righteous go.

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**As for the reunion **of our body and soul – they will be united in glory in at the end of time.

Don’t you ever get convicted that personal attack is wrong?

 

[elvisman]

Don’t you ever get convicted that personal attack is wrong?

**WHAT personal attack?? A person’s ignorance is reflected in the things they say.
Calling somebody ignorant is not the same as calling them stupid. I told him that my heart went out to him in his ignorance.

**Look, Doki - if you don’t have anything to add to the conversation then don’t. If you want to discuss the topic of this thread - then let’s discuss it. **

**If you feel that I have attacked you - then address me. If I’m talking to somebody else - mind your own business. You do this in every thread that we encounter each other - you derail the topic.

 

[Dokimas]

***WHAT ***personal attack?? A person’s ignorance is reflected in the things they say.
**Calling somebody ignorant is not **the same as calling them stupid. I told him that my heart went out to him in his ignorance.

**Look, Doki **- if you don’t have anything to add to the conversation then don’t. If you want to discuss the topic of this thread - then let’s discuss it.

If you feel that I have attacked you - then address me. If I’m talking to somebody else - mind your *own *business. You do this in every thread that we encounter each other - you derail the topic.

It is my business if you condescend to others. You do it in almost every post.

Calling someone ignorant is condescending and NOT called for. Telling anyone your heart goes out to them because they are ignorant is double condescending.

 

[Dokimas]

You know something – my heart really goes out to you. Your ignorance of Christianity stems from your ignorance of our Jewish roots.

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**The Jews believe in Sheol **– a place of darkness which is a holding place where the wicked AND the righteous go.

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**As for the reunion **of our body and soul – they will be united in glory in at the end of time.

The original post was about Matthew 16:18,19.

18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

I’m trying to find sheol in these verses and I can’t. Maybe I’m ignorant or maybe you’re OFF topic.

 

[Dokimas]

I can’t imagine Jesus building His church on a sinner. I can imagine Jesus building His church upon the fact He is the Christ, the Son of God. One is consistent with the NT; the other is not, IMO.

I am aware God’s Truth is not subject to my imagination. I’m glad!! I’m also glad God’s Truth is not subject to anyone’s imagination.

 

[elvisman]

It is my business if you condescend to others. You do it in almost every post.

Calling someone ignorant is condescending and NOT called for. Telling anyone your heart goes out to them because they are ignorant is double condescending.

Stick to the topic at hand . . .

 

[elvisman]

The original post was about Matthew 16:18,19.

18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

I’m trying to find sheol in these verses and I can’t. Maybe I’m ignorant or maybe you’re OFF topic.

1beleevr took the conversation there. If you have a problem with it - talk to him . . .

 

[elvisman]

I can’t imagine Jesus building His church on a sinner. I can imagine Jesus building His church upon the fact He is the Christ, the Son of God. One is consistent with the NT; the other is not, IMO.

I am aware God’s Truth is not subject to my imagination. I’m glad!! I’m also glad God’s Truth is not subject to anyone’s imagination.

You are absolutely right - his truth is not subject to your imagination.

As a matter of fact - only TWO entities in all of Scripture are referred to as the TRUTH:
1. God (John 14:6).
2. The Catholic Church (1 Tim. 3:15).

 

[PRmerger]

Well, hello stranger; long time no hear!

Hello, there, friend! I am heartened to see that you and Brother Dokimas are still here chatting with us Catholic folks! You are certainly getting healthy doses of the Catholic understanding by hanging around here.

(I would love to be in on a real-life conversation either of you have with some average Clueless-Catholic-in-the-Pews. I am certain that you both know more about our faith than the Clueless-Joe-Catholics. How fun it would be to hear you say to them, “No, Sir, that is actually NOT what your church teaches. Your church teaches _____ and you ought to be ashamed that I, a non-Catholic, know more about your faith than you do!”)

So the apostles observed the Sabbath on what day, Sunday?

Yep. And so did the first century Catholics, and 3rd century Catholics and 15th century Catholics and…

Were ther designated days of the week in Genesis, when God established the Sabbath?

I dunno. Maybe the answer is no?

You know it’s the only Commandment with 'remember" in it?

God has given us many commandments. Many of them include the word “remember” in it.

Mark 14:72​

Immediately a rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had made the remark to him, “Before a rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times.” And he began to weep.
Mark 14:71-72 (in Context) Mark 14 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 1:72​

To show mercy toward our fathers, And to remember His holy covenant,
Luke 1:71-73 (in Context) Luke 1 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 16:25​

"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:24-26 (in Context) Luke 16 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 17:32​

" Remember Lot’s wife.
Luke 17:31-33 (in Context) Luke 17 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 22:61​

The Lord turned and looked at Peter And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had told him, " Before a rooster crows today, you will deny Me three times."
Luke 22:60-62 (in Context) Luke 22 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 23:42​

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
Luke 23:41-43 (in Context) Luke 23 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 24:6​

"He is not here, but He has risen Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee,
Luke 24:5-7 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 24:8​

And they remembered His words,
Luke 24:7-9 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter)

John 2:17​

His disciples remembered that it was written, " ZEAL FOR YOUR HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME."
John 2:16-18 (in Context) John 2 (Whole Chapter)

John 2:22​

So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
John 2:21-23 (in Context) John 2 (Whole Chapter)

John 12:16​

These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.
John 12:15-17 (in Context) John 12 (Whole Chapter)

John 15:20​

"Remember the word that I said to you, ’ A slave is not greater than his master ’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I can’t imagine Jesus building His church on a sinner. I can imagine Jesus building His church upon the fact He is the Christ, the Son of God. One is consistent with the NT; the other is not, IMO.

I am aware God’s Truth is not subject to my imagination. I’m glad!! I’m also glad God’s Truth is not subject to anyone’s imagination.

Non sequitur.

God built the nation of Israel on a sinner(s), Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses. If the Church is the New Israel(Gal 6:16), why is it so hard to imagine? Our sinfulness does not negate God’s truth, nor does it negate God’s grace upon those through whom He uses as intruments to transmit His grace to others.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

It should be noted that in all the letters from the Church Fathers that tesified to Peter’s primacy, the language of these letters were WRITTEN IN GREEK.

If the Protestant interpretation is the true one, and the Church Fathers by and large spoke Greek and wrote Greek because Greek was the lingua franca of the Empire, then the Church Fathers interpretation should be indentical to the Protestant position and there should be no Pope.

Was the Church’s interpretation the same as Protestantism’s? Church history should show their position to be the only one. Or was the truth of Peter’s primacy already held by the Church and the translation from the Aramaic to the Greek the obvious error that all who had any sense knew it to be?

The evidence points to the latter…

St Cyprian (to Florentius, ca 254)
Peter speaks there(Rome), on whom the Church was built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear and obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor.

St Clement of Alexandria
Nor does the kingdom of heaven belong to sleepers and sluggards, ‘but the violent take it by force’(Mat 11:12). Therefore on hearing those words, the blessed Peter, the chosen, the pre-eminent, the first of the disciples, for whom alone and Himself the Savior paid tribute, quickly seized and comprehended the saying. And what does he(Peter) say? ‘Lo, we have left all and followed Thee’(Matt 19:27; Mk 10:28).

St Cyril of Jerusalem
“The Lord is loving unto man, and swift to pardon, but slow to punish. Let no man therefore despair of his own salvation. Peter,** the chiefest and foremost of the Apostles**, denied the Lord thrice before a little maid: but he repented himself, and wept bitterly. Now weeping shows repentance of heart: and therefore he not only received forgiveness for his denial, but also held his Apostolic dignity unforfeited.”