Non Catholic Interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19

[Richard_Kastner]

First of all - Jesus didn’t "cover" our sins as Luther was so fond of saying. He PAID for us* (redeemed us)* so that we can be forgiven of those sins when we come to God with humble and contrite hearts. In short - he wipes out our sins - he doesn’t just “cover” them.

NOWHERE does the Bible tell us that mere human beings are perfect. When Jesus told us to be perfect - he meant that we must STRIVE to be perfect.

Jesus was the ONLY perfect man because he was also GOD. Phillipians 2:5-8 states VERY clear that nobody except for him can be perfect:
"Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. (ONLY God is perfect)
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross."

NOTHING unclean can enter heaven - NOTHING imperfect - not even Luther’s “snow-covered dunghills” . . .

---

**Saying that ANY **mere human is perfect is preposterous.

So, is Jesus setting an impossible task for us in
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jesus tells us exactly how to be perfect in
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Are you saying He was wrong? And again in
Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Is He wrong here? When Jesus prays for our perfection in
John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Was that a futile prayer Eman?
Was Paul’s admonition and prayer for the Corinthians futile?
2 Corinthians 13:9
For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Was his prayer for the Ephesians futile?
Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Was paul’s wanting to present the Colossians perfect nonsense?
Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Was Paul’s and Epaphras’ prayer ludicrous?
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
You think Paul’s advice to Timothy is ludicrous?
2Tim.3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
The author of Hebrews seems to think that we can become perfect.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

As far as our sins being covered.
Romans 4:7
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
In Job and Ephesians we see that righteousness is put on.
Job 29:14
I put on righteousness as my clothing; justice was my robe and my turban
Ephesians 4:24
and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

When we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior the filthy rags of our righteousness are covered by the pure, perfection of His righteousness.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

 

[nickybr38]

Actually - “The Way” IS the Catholic Church. It never faded away, it just became known by a more universal name (no pun intended) as it spread further and further west.

I know. But most Protestants I argue with say differently. In fact there is a new denomination (I believe) that call themselves the WAY, and claim to be the TRUE church, as God intended.

 

[BTTG]

Reading all of this was like reading a transcript of conversations I’ve had with my mother.

And just like it happens with my mother this whole thread has resulted in me doing this :banghead:

Haha.

Lots of interesting information in this thread. Thanks to everyone for posting.

I’d just like to throw in that when I was Protestant I always had issues with the idea that anyone who believes is granted wisdom to interpret. This flies in the face of other verses where Paul speaks of every believer being given a different gift. Some are given wisdom, some speaking in tongues … etc. etc. etc. We are not ALL given the same things.

I just wonder why it took 1500 years before people realized Jesus wasn’t building His church on Peter? Hm, seems like Christians are pretty slow to interpret scripture properly doesn’t it?

Further, isn’t believing we are perfect akin to wallowing in pride?

If believing in Christ makes us perfect why did the Apostles, who personally walked with Christ, make mistakes? Really, think about this a little bit before stating it.

PS: As an aside. If the ‘WAY’ is the proper Church Christ established why did it fade out of existance while the Catholic Church rose to be a super power of Christianity??? Ever wonder about that one? Why would God allow that?

In regards to your statement… "PS: As an aside. If the ‘WAY’ is the proper Church Christ established why did it fade out of existance while the Catholic Church rose to be a super power of Christianity??? Ever wonder about that one? Why would God allow that?

Two paragraphs prior you stated an excellent point on pride, with the above statement your pride was revealed.

Furthermore, to your PS statement. Ever wonder why God allowed Satan to increase his super power throughout earth?

 

[elvisman]

So, is Jesus setting an impossible task for us in
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jesus tells us exactly how to be perfect in
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Are you saying He was wrong? And again in
Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Is He wrong here? When Jesus prays for our perfection in
John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Was that a futile prayer Eman?
Was Paul’s admonition and prayer for the Corinthians futile?
2 Corinthians 13:9
For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Was his prayer for the Ephesians futile?
Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Was paul’s wanting to present the Colossians perfect nonsense?
Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Was Paul’s and Epaphras’ prayer ludicrous?
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
You think Paul’s advice to Timothy is ludicrous?
2Tim.3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
The author of Hebrews seems to think that we can become perfect.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

As far as our sins being covered.
Romans 4:7
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
In Job and Ephesians we see that righteousness is put on.
Job 29:14
I put on righteousness as my clothing; justice was my robe and my turban
Ephesians 4:24
and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

When we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior the filthy rags of our righteousness are covered by the pure, perfection of His righteousness.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Impossible? With man, YES. With God - No, because with God ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26).
Will anybody even be perfect? NO, because only that which is in heaven is perfect.

You made a ridiculous statement and now y****ou’re really grasping at straws here, pal . . .

 

[elvisman]

I know. But most Protestants I argue with say differently. In fact there is a new denomination (I believe) that call themselves the WAY, and claim to be the TRUE church, as God intended.

**They aren’t because they have no Apostolic succession. They only call themselves “The Way” because that is what the Church was referred to in the very beginning in Acts.

As for the Protestants who say differently, ask them to prove it. YOU can prove your Church goes all the way back to Christ - THEY can’t. **

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvisman
Actually - “The Way” IS the Catholic Church. It never faded away, it just became known by a more universal name (no pun intended) as it spread further and further west.

I know. But most Protestants I argue with say differently. In fact there is a new denomination (I believe) that call themselves the WAY, and claim to be the TRUE church, as God intended.

Will they can say all they want,but the facts do not change, Christ founded His Church 2,000 years ago and the Holy Spirit did not allow it to split into thousands of different churches. Indeed,many new churches claim to the be the TRUE church,but unfortunately history does not support their belief.

 

[nickybr38]

In regards to your statement… "PS: As an aside. If the ‘WAY’ is the proper Church Christ established why did it fade out of existance while the Catholic Church rose to be a super power of Christianity??? Ever wonder about that one? Why would God allow that?

Two paragraphs prior you stated an excellent point on pride, with the above statement your pride was revealed.

Furthermore, to your PS statement. Ever wonder why God allowed Satan to increase his super power throughout earth?

I really think there’s a difference between saying; This is truly the Church of God, and saying: The Holy Spirit reveals all truth to ME and if He reveals a different truth to you then you’re wrong.

Don’t you agree?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Impossible? With man, YES. With God - No, because with God ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26).
Will anybody even be perfect? NO, because only that which is in heaven is perfect.

You made a ridiculous statement and now y****ou’re really grasping at straws here, pal . . .

:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
So, is Jesus setting an impossible task for us in
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jesus tells us exactly how to be perfect in
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Are you saying He was wrong? And again in
Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Is He wrong here? When Jesus prays for our perfection in
John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Was that a futile prayer Eman?
Was Paul’s admonition and prayer for the Corinthians futile?
2 Corinthians 13:9
For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Was his prayer for the Ephesians futile?
Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Was paul’s wanting to present the Colossians perfect nonsense?
Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Was Paul’s and Epaphras’ prayer ludicrous?
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
You think Paul’s advice to Timothy is ludicrous?
2Tim.3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
The author of Hebrews seems to think that we can become perfect.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Gasping at straws? These are verses copied and pasted directly from the bible that not only tell us that it is possible to attain perfection, but that we MUST attain perfection. This of coarse is achieved by the faith and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus. But you seem to think that the bible is ridiculous, that we should throw it out and follow the gospel according to Elvisman. I think that is a very dangerous thing to do.

 

[nickybr38]

So, is Jesus setting an impossible task for us in
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jesus tells us exactly how to be perfect in
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Are you saying He was wrong? And again in
Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Is He wrong here? When Jesus prays for our perfection in
John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Was that a futile prayer Eman?
Was Paul’s admonition and prayer for the Corinthians futile?
2 Corinthians 13:9
For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Was his prayer for the Ephesians futile?
Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Was paul’s wanting to present the Colossians perfect nonsense?
Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Was Paul’s and Epaphras’ prayer ludicrous?
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
You think Paul’s advice to Timothy is ludicrous?
2Tim.3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
The author of Hebrews seems to think that we can become perfect.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

As far as our sins being covered.
Romans 4:7
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
In Job and Ephesians we see that righteousness is put on.
Job 29:14
I put on righteousness as my clothing; justice was my robe and my turban
Ephesians 4:24
and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

When we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior the filthy rags of our righteousness are covered by the pure, perfection of His righteousness.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Even those clothed in the righteousness of God retain their free will. He does not make us mindless puppets when we choose to follow Him and serve Him. David, the anointed king, chosen BY God, sinned against God in his later life. God does not make us perfect and incapable of sin. Instead when we submit ourselves to Him He attempts to guide us into a more righteous life. But even when under the protection and guard of His righteousness we can still stumble and fall as can be seen again and again in scripture.

 

[1beleevr]

Exactly.

Do you know how many of those in prison were impaired by alcohol when they committed a crime?

I’m not sure about other states, but in California, approximately 75% of crimes committed involved the perpetrator being under the influence of either alcohol or drugs! At one time, in our prison, about 15% of the inmates were catholic(5800 inmates). Well, it’s getting around harvest time(Matthew 9:37-38) and we have outreaches and street ministry going, so I may be off the forum for awhile! Mentoring 2 co-workers, one new to the faith, and one searching for explanations, and wanting to find God!

 

[1beleevr]

Isn’t it amazing how so many change their position, once it has been exposed? He says one thing and then later say another?

I have encountered people from every religion, who fit this description!(yes, even catholics)

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not sure about other states, but in California, approximately 75% of crimes committed involved the perpetrator being under the influence of either alcohol or drugs!

Exactly. And I bet most of those cursin’, drinkin’, carousin’ perpetrators were professed Christians. :sad_yes:

At one time, in our prison, about 15% of the inmates were catholic(5800 inmates).

Wow. 85% were not Catholic then!

I think there’s something to be said to about being able to be ONE FLESH with Jesus in the Eucharist that keeps Catholics out of prison.

 

[nickybr38]

Originally Posted by Nicea325
Isn’t it amazing how so many change their position, once it has been exposed? He says one thing and then later say another?

I see this as a reflection of people who just have an axe to grind and who aren’t willing to learn. They seem to ‘change their position’ because they realize they’re losing the fight and have to redirect the conversation. I have been known to change my position if I’m proved wrong. … but sometimes I just have a hard time explaining myself properly so have to reword what I’m saying to try and explain what I’m thinking. So maybe that’s what’s happening when people seem to ‘change their position’ once it’s been shown to them?

I don’t know. We’re all human though. And for better or worse everything we share in such public forums will be used by all reading.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Even those clothed in the righteousness of God retain their free will. He does not make us mindless puppets when we choose to follow Him and serve Him. David, the anointed king, chosen BY God, sinned against God in his later life. God does not make us perfect and incapable of sin. Instead when we submit ourselves to Him He attempts to guide us into a more righteous life. But even when under the protection and guard of His righteousness we can still stumble and fall as can be seen again and again in scripture.

I never said that our free will is taken away or that we become puppets, but when we truely accept what Jesus has done FOR us. We see that sin is exceedingly sinful.
Romans 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
And we will through submission to the Spirit of God attempt to live up to the perfection that Christ through His perfect sacrifice has instilled in us.

 

[Dokimas]

Matt. 8:17

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Yep

The CHURCH

 

[Dokimas]

Well, Christ did establish His church in Matthew 16, but the debate is whether or not it is the catholic church or not!

Agreed.

 

[Dokimas]

And let us say for the sake argument, it is not the CC, then which church was he referring to? The Baptist? Methodist? New Song Church? Hope Fellowship church,etc,etc,etc?

It’s all true believers in Jesus the Christ the Son of the Living God; God in the flesh.

 

[Dokimas]

**Can you show me *where ***it says this in the Bible??
Can you show me where it says that all believers are part of Christ’s ONE Church? Can you?

The Greek word for church means ‘called out ones’. It’s all of us called out from the world and it’s sinful system.

The church is an organism not an organization; it’s built of us as living stones, as Peter said.

1 Peter 2:
4 ¶ To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Peter calls all true believers living stones.

 

[Dokimas]

I just get real tired of hearing the same old line,like people can’t think for themselves! I live by every Word that floweth from the mouth of God!

You were accused of being angry. You don’t appear angry to me. If you’re not angry, the accuser was bearing false witness.

 

[Dokimas]

Do you know how many of those in prison were impaired by alcohol when they committed a crime?

Those you speak about weren’t convicted of drunkedness but the crimes they did while drunk. I’m guessing the point of Beleevr was that drunkeness alone is not a crime. However God calls it sin, IMO.