Non Catholic Interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19

[PRmerger]

Oh, and Richard?

If we’re going to start demanding that people answer questions, post #427 proferred a question to you that’s still unanswered, too.

It seems a little, um…imperfect, to be making mistakes like this.

(And, yes, I am playing with ya a bit here, Richard. Levity makes things a little more entertaining. Still, the questions are serious, of course! Deadly serious.)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

So what happens if we die after CHOOSING to sin, but before repenting? Like, let’s say we choose to steal a pack of gum. Then we die. In your paradigm do we go to hell or heaven?

Ok, you win. If we die seperated from God in sin. The punishment is eternal destruction. Now in your example of stealing a pack of gum. I as a sinner myself cannot say and it is not my place to say for the simple fact that I do not know the heart of the one who stole the gum nor can or should I judge him/her. That is solely God’s job. Ok, now you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Oh, and Richard?

If we’re going to start demanding that people answer questions, post #427 proferred a question to you that’s still unanswered, too.

It seems a little, um…imperfect, to be making mistakes like this.

(And, yes, I am playing with ya a bit here, Richard. Levity makes things a little more entertaining. Still, the questions are serious, of course! Deadly serious.)

I didn’t demand that you answer it. I thought that I was very polite. As for Jim Dandy’s question I didn’t make a mistake I’m ignoring it.

 

[PRmerger]

Ok, you win.

Well, thank you for that!

If we die seperated from God in sin. The punishment is eternal destruction. Now in your example of stealing a pack of gum. I as a sinner myself cannot say and it is not my place to say for the simple fact that I do not know the heart of the one who stole the gum nor can or should I judge him/her. That is solely God’s job.

Everything you say above is very Catholic.

Now, you have to provide an explanation for how someone who steals a pack of gum dies without repenting can enter heaven. *( Nothing unclean can enter heaven.) *

Catholics have the answer: purgatory. Your answer is “I don’t know.”

 

[PRmerger]

I guess the question for you PR is do you BELIEVE THIS.

I give a hearty “Amen!” to 2 Tim:3.

 

[Cinette]

Gasping at straws? These are verses copied and pasted directly from the bible that not only tell us that it is possible to attain perfection, but that we MUST attain perfection. This of coarse is achieved by the faith and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus. But you seem to think that the bible is ridiculous, that we should throw it out and follow the gospel according to Elvisman. I think that is a very dangerous thing to do.

*Richard - why do you avoid answering my question?

Are you perfect?
Are you holy?
Are you Christ-like?

P L E A S E answer these questions!

Cinette*

 

[elvisman]

Gasping at straws? These are verses copied and pasted directly from the bible that not only tell us that it is possible to attain perfection, but that we MUST attain perfection. This of coarse is achieved by the faith and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus. But you seem to think that the bible is ridiculous, that we should throw it out and follow the gospel according to Elvisman. I think that is a very dangerous thing to do.

Sorry, pal - you cannot attain perfection on earth - only Jesus did that. That is the WHOLE point of Purgatory.**

**C.S. Lewis - the great Protestant author said, "The mercy of God demands Purgatory."

 

[PRmerger]

Faith is a gift from God
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Faith, like love, and like many other concepts, has multiple meanings. In this case, there’s intellectual faith (belief), emotional faith (hope), volitional faith (an act of the will), etc etc etc.

Faith without love, without an act of the will, without belief, without hope will not save.

 

[elvisman]

Yep These verses are not about deciding right or wrong. Context tells us what the person did was wrong. If the person won’t repent going to the person alone or with one or two others, then, if the person is in the church, take it to the church. The church was not deciding anything; the church was marking the sinner publically.

These verses are about the CHURCH being the Authority - not the written word.
You can twist it all you want but it’ll always mean that the Church has the authority to decide in matters of faith and morals.

Seeing as Paul was speaking to the local church he founded, I would take it to the local church I attend if we both go to the same church.

Jesus spoke of the Universal Church - period. He wasn’t speaking of local Churches - never even mentioned a “local” Church. Sorry pal - there is only ONE (Matt. 16:16-19, 18:15-18, John 17:20-23).
authority to decide in matters of faith and morals.

Context tells us that it is Jesus that reconciles. Paul was encouraging all to be reconciled. We should be about encouraging reconciliation to God.

Yep. We all are to encourage those far from God to be reconciled to God by faith in Jesus and obedience to God’s Word.

Paul encourage forgiveness. Paul said he’d back their forgiveness for their sake. We are to encourage Christians to forgive. Don’t we pray the importance of forgiveness when we pray the Lord’s Prayer?

What you fail to understand is that God ALWAYS uses men to spread his word, build his nation establish his Church and dispense his Sacraments. All throughout the OT and the NT - this is the case. Read your Bible, my anti-Catholic friend.**

God forgives and he does it through men so as to diminish any scrupulosity. In other words, humans need to know that their sins are forgiven. That’s why God set it up that way. You don’t get it because of the hardness of your heart.
As Phillipians reminds us - lean NOTon your own understanding but on God’s.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Well, thank you for that!

Everything you say above is very Catholic.

Now, you have to provide an explanation for how someone who steals a pack of gum dies without repenting can enter heaven. *( Nothing unclean can enter heaven.) *

Catholics have the answer: purgatory. Your answer is “I don’t know.”

Catholics have their answer. Which in my opinion is the wrong answer and since we cannot know the heart of this sinner or any sinner, the correct answer is my answer “I don’t know.” I don’t accept the idea of purgatory, because IMHO it negates the sacrifice of Christ and says that we can work our way into heaven through some kind of unnamed punishment or purging process. I’m not quite clear on what exactly that is supposed to be.
Ok, ive answered two of your posts and you have not answered my question. I don’t want to be accused of demanding, but ANSWER THE QUESTION. Just kidding and you really don’t have to answer it on this thread. But I urge you to answer it for yourself.

 

[elvisman]

The Greek word for church means ‘called out ones’. It’s all of us called out from the world and it’s sinful system.

The church is an organism not an organization; it’s built of us as living stones, as Peter said.

1 Peter 2:
4 ¶ To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Peter calls all true believers living stones.

You’re dancing around the issue again.

ANSWER the question:
Can you show me where it says that all believers are part of Christ’s ONE Church? Can you?

If you don’t have an answer - just admit it and go on.

 

[Cinette]

It’s all true believers in Jesus the Christ the Son of the Living God; God in the flesh.

:whacky::whacky:*But all “true believers” in Jesus the Christ believe different things! Are you saying there is more than one truth? That it doesn’t matter your truth, my truth, his truth, their truth etc etc are all the same??

Come on!

Cinette:shrug:*

 

[elvisman]

My guess is that telling you he’d give you some latitude is NOT changing his position.

Huh?

**Don’t really understand your statement the way you structured your sentence. Please clarify.

 

[PRmerger]

Catholics have their answer. Which in my opinion is the wrong answer and since we cannot know the heart of this sinner or any sinner, the correct answer is my answer “I don’t know.”

Fair enough. You don’t know how a Christian who dies without repenting of a sin enters heaven when he’s unclean and imperfect.

I don’t accept the idea of purgatory, because IMHO it negates the sacrifice of Christ and says that we can work our way into heaven through some kind of unnamed punishment or purging process.

The irony of this, Richard, is that you believe in this purging, too. You get that it’s impossible for an imperfect, sinful soul to be in the Divine Presence. You just don’t know how it’s done or give it a name.

Catholics do.

you have not answered my question.

Please see below.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7001164&postcount=440

 

[Cinette]

Those you speak about weren’t convicted of drunkedness but the crimes they did while drunk. I’m guessing the point of Beleevr was that drunkeness alone is not a crime. However God calls it sin, IMO.

*I am not sure that drunkedness is not a crime but it certainly can lead to big sins. So yes, drunkedness is a sin. *

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Faith, like love, and like many other concepts, has multiple meanings. In this case, there’s intellectual faith (belief), emotional faith (hope), volitional faith (an act of the will), etc etc etc.

Faith without love, without an act of the will, without belief, without hope will not save.

There is only one faith talked about in the bible and that is the faith in God (Jesus). It is the faith of

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And what other meaning does love have other than the one found right here?

 

[PRmerger]

There is only one faith talked about in the bible and that is the faith in God (Jesus). It is the faith of

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[SIGN1]That is absolutely not true.[/SIGN1] For even the demons believe and shudder.

And what other meaning does love have other than the one found right here?

There’s eros, agape, filial love.

There’s love of chocolate, love of doggies, love of soccer.

There’s selfish love and egotistical love and undying love.

There’s poetic love and scientific love and biological love.

There’s…

 

[Cinette]

Doen’t Paul tell us in Romans 7 that true believers have two natures unlike non-believers. One nature (the old one which is of the flesh) sins. The other nature is the new nature given to us by Jesus and this nature does not sin. Paul said in his flesh dwelled not good thing; he also said it was no longer him that sinned but sin that dwells within him.

14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

*As long as we are human and have original sin we will sin but we must strive not to sin.

I am a revert to the Catholic Church and I found that when I come close to committing sin I remember that I will have to confess it in Confession and often I avoid the sin. We are given grace through Confession. Absolution is a cleansing. But we do sin because we are weak.

We have to keep trying…to STRIVE. Hard work in a world full of temptations.
Cinette*

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Fair enough. You don’t know how a Christian who dies without repenting of a sin enters heaven when he’s unclean and imperfect.

It’s really interesting how you twist what I say and make it something that I never said at all. Sinners who don’t repent will not be in the kingdom of God, period.

The irony of this, Richard, is that you believe in this purging, too. You get that it’s impossible for an imperfect, sinful soul to be in the Divine Presence. You just don’t know how it’s done or give it a name.

Catholics do.

All purging of our sins was done on the cross. We avail ourselves of that purging sacrifice through FAITH in what He did.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

[SIGN1]That is absolutely not true.[/SIGN1] For even the demons believe and shudder.

How is this faith any different than that of Jn. 3:16

There’s eros, agape, filial love.

There’s love of chocolate, love of doggies, love of soccer.

There’s selfish love and egotistical love and undying love.

There’s poetic love and scientific love and biological love.

There’s…

Ok, you got me here, but only the first three. The rest aren’t love at all