Non Catholic looking for a discussion on your beliefs

[Inquiry]

3 - This would be easier with a point of reference. Have you read C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce? Skip what he says about Purgatory for a moment. I actually think a different moment in the book is more relevant.

Do you recall the encounter between the Man with the lizard (his lusts) and how he lets the lizard be killed and it is agony, but in the process the man (and lizard) are transformed into something glorious?

That is the process of purgatory.

4 - To follow up on something you said, why would Heaven be so limited that the only thing we can do is directly praise God. Instead, should it not be that everything we do there glorifies Him. Is not praying to him to lift up others as He has lifted up you a way of glorifying Him?

6.2 - Let’s say I’m a programmer who programmed my own game full of characters interacting. I made them with likes and drives and the ability to grow and find more likes and drives. Now, being a programmer I have the capability of going into the code and overrideing the likes and drives of the characters in my game. If I choose not to, and instead try to convince them to want to do things my way, it in no way diminishes my ability to change them if I so chose.

7 - Why would the gifts of the Holy Spirit not include the ability to transmit them to others?

10 - Why should I love my parents when Luke 14:26 says that I should hate them?

but I believe Catholic take most of scripture literally.

This is probably the biggest misunderstanding between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics do not take most of scripture literally. They consider most of scripture true. There is a difference.

Also (and only because you said you were going to look him up) don’t take Jack Chick seriously.

 

[Vico]

…
6) What are your beliefs on free-will.
6.2) How does free-will not limit the sovereign authority of God over his creation.
…

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.” 26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts. 27

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,
in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will. 38

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.” 307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’” 308

26 Gaudium et spes 17; Sir 15:14.
27 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 4,4,3G 7/1,983.+
38 Roman Missal , 32nd Sunday, Opening Prayer: Omnipotens et misericors Deus, universa nobis adversantia propitiatus exclude, ut, mente et corpore pariter expediti, quæ tua sunt liberis mentibus exsequamur .
307 St. Leo the Great, Sermo 73,4: PL 54,396.
308 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III,1,3, ad 3; cf. Rom 5:20.

 

[Lysander]

Catholics don’t take everything in scripture literally. For example there is no official Catholic position on God creating the world in seven days. Some take it literal some take it figurative (being more about a covernant between God and man).

 

[1ke]

Forum etiquette would be one topic per discussion thread.

You’ve listed 10.

How about pick one for this thread and start additional threads for the others.

Any topic worth discussing is worth staying on point and not jumping around all over the place.

 

[HopkinsReb]

1. How is praying to patron saints and Mary not idolatry.

Latria, Dulia, Hyperdulia. Look them up.

1. How do you justify the baptism of infants(since they do not comprehend their own existence much less an unseen God).

Where in scripture does it say that comprehension is necessary for Baptism? If it is, who among us can say we truly understand God and Baptism? Who could be Baptized under a standard requiring comprehension?

6.2) How does free-will not limit the sovereign authority of God over his creation.

How does a father’s letting his child pick his new Lego set instead of picking it for him not limit the authority of the father over his child? We don’t claim that God can’t control our every move; we claim he doesn’t.

1. How is the Catholic Church the first church if in the letters of the Apostle Paul he writes about how the church should be established there is not supposed to be a singular church leader and all the churches are addressed as separate churches but one in Christ.

There are several Catholic churches, which are part of the single Catholic Church. Where do you get the idea that there isn’t supposed to be a leader over all of them?

1. How can the Pope claim to be infallible, if so then his sermons(I don’t know if that’s the word you use) should be biblical Canon.

Read more on papal infallibility. It’s a narrowly-tailored doctrine.

1. Why do you call your priest father when in Matthew 23:9 that is forbidden.

Why do you call your dad “father,” since by a literal reading that is also forbidden?

 

[Dougbro1]

So I believe in Heaven you glorify God, like that’s it. So why would another believer that’s busy fulfilling man’s purpose stop to talk to God for you.

In Hebrews 12:1, we’re reminded by St. Paul that we’re surrounded by a “great cloud of witnesses,” so if they’re too busy glorifying God, how can this be? Furthermore, what’s to say the saints’ intercession isn’t glorifying God? If intercession among members of the body of Christ on earth is “good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior” (1 Tim. 2:1–4), how would such behavior not also be pleasing to God in heaven?

Also how far does that extend could I pray to my Great grandpa in the same way?

Because Catholics believe in Purgatory, we wouldn’t know whether the person in question is in Heaven, or still being purified in Purgatory. We usually stick with canonized saints just to be safe, but my family also asks the children who died before their birth to pray for us as well, seeing as they had never sinned, and in effect, Purgatory would not end up doing much for them, and they would go to Heaven.

 

[Gorgias]

I think you’re going to get a variety of answers; not sure whether all of them will be according to the teachings of the Church, or more of the tenor of ‘personal opinion’. This is gonna be interesting!

1)So how do you justify the Pope in scripture.

Two answers:

• where do you see in Scripture that everything must be justified in Scripture?
• Jesus gives Peter the proxy of authority in Mt 16:19. Later, Peter uses that authority (extra-Scripturally, but again, see my first question) to begin the succession of Petrine authority. (We already see Peter initiating apostolic succession in the book of Acts.)

1. What is your belief on Total Depravity( I would be interested in a discussion on TULIP in general with a Catholic).

It’s a novel theology, which – aside from Augustine’s notion of the ‘massa damnata’ (which itself was rejected by the Church) – wasn’t part of Church teaching.

3)How does purgatory work.

Are you perfect now? Will you be perfect at the time of your death? Will you be perfect in heaven?

I’m gonna guess that those answers should be “no”, “no”, and “yes.” This means that something has to happen between death and entrance into heaven, which purifies and perfects you. That’s all that ‘purgatory’ is. What it is not is some sort of “second chance”. The only people who are purified are the ones who have already been judged as attaining to heaven.

1. How is praying to patron saints and Mary not idolatry.

Because we see prayer to saints in the Bible! (Look at Revelation, where the saints in heaven offer the prayers of the faithful to God.) We don’t pray that they do something (like perform a miracle); we just pray that they offer their prayers for our needs. That’s completely in keeping with Christian theology!

1. How do you justify the baptism of infants(since they do not comprehend their own existence much less an unseen God).

Peter says that baptism is for “you and your children”. We see that baptisms in Scripture were for entire households. How do you justify changing what you read as having taken place in Scripture?

1. What are your beliefs on free-will.

It exists. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good place to read up on it!

6.2) How does free-will not limit the sovereign authority of God over his creation.

God is the one who gives us free will. Therefore, if I engage the gifts He has given me, I’m actually cooperating with his authority!

 

[Gorgias]

1. How is the Catholic Church the first church if in the letters of the Apostle Paul he writes about how the church should be established there is not supposed to be a singular church leader and all the churches are addressed as separate churches but one in Christ.

The Catholic Church is defined, to a certain extent, by leadership that traces itself to the apostles. If Paul is talking about local Churches which are apostolic, then they’re part of the universal Church. If a denomination separated itself from the apostolic Church, then they’ve severed that relationship to a certain extent.

1. How can the Pope claim to be infallible, if so then his sermons(I don’t know if that’s the word you use) should be biblical Canon.

Read up on infallibility. It only covers statements in the area of faith and morals that are made with the intent of establishing doctrine. If a statement does not meet that standard, then ‘infallibility’ does not attach (although authority might). So, no… ‘sermons’ are neither ‘biblical’ nor ‘canonical’, although there’s a certain authority to them.

1. Why do you call your priest father when in Matthew 23:9 that is forbidden.

Why did Paul refer to himself as the spiritual father of those to whom he writes as ‘children’? Why does Jesus himself call Abraham by the name “Father Abraham”? The answer is that Jesus is speaking hyperbolically.

Thanks for the questions! Got any questions about my answers?

 

[Gorgias]

Catholics don’t take everything in scripture literally.

To be fair, neither do Protestants. If they did, then they’d believe that the Eucharist really is the Body and Blood of Christ, and that authority in the Church proceeds from Peter and the apostles.

You conflate children and infants which isn’t what I said.

Are children younger than the age of reason any different than infants, in this regard? And besides… how do you know that infants weren’t baptized in the early Church? Where does the Bible say they weren’t?

So I believe in Heaven you glorify God, like that’s it. So why would another believer that’s busy fulfilling man’s purpose stop to talk to God for you.

Two thoughts:

• where do you get that "all you do in heaven is glorify God’? Is that a tradition of men, perhaps?
• who says that intercession of the saints mean that they “stop” what they’re doing in order to “talk to God”? Isn’t the whole point of heaven that you’re in eternal communion with God? So why is it a problem? What if one of the prayers that the saints are constantly praying is “God, please hear the prayers of those who are asking me to raise my voice to you on their behalf”…?

 

[OddBird]

Hi, and welcome to the forums !

1. How do you justify the baptism of infants(since they do not comprehend their own existence much less an unseen God).

I suspect your perspective on baptism is that it primarily is a confession of faith and an engagement of the baptized toward God.

This is only one part, and probably the less important part, of what happens at baptism (and yes, also at infant baptism, since it involves a promise from the parents on behalf of their child).

More importantly, baptism, as a sacrament, is a mean through which God imparts grace. At baptism, God frees us from original sin, concludes an alliance with us, affirms us as His children, unites us to Christ’s death and resurrection, and gives us the grace we need to grow in wisdom. There is no need to understand any of this to receive it; if you forgive the clumsy comparison, a tree does not need to understand how rain works for it to make it live and grow. The tree simply needs rain.

As a side note, infant baptism is not exclusively a Catholic thing. My Reformed church does it. I think Calvin wrote somewhere (I could look it up if you would like) that at baptism, infants are carried by the faith of their parents.

 

[Limoncello4021]

Have you done a search on these questions? Many have been answered many times over. Also, please watch the series, The Journey Home, on Youtube for discussion by many converts to the Catholic faith on these questions. Here’s one with a former Baptist:

And another:

 

[BartholomewB]

As @Tis_Bearself noted, people here are more likely to answer a single question than a whole questionnaire. I’ll pick your #2. “Total depravity” is not a term in Catholic use, but I believe it corresponds to what we call original sin. This link will take you to the relevant section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (paragraphs 385 to 421). Please take a look to make sure that this is, in fact, what you are asking about.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

How is praying to patron saints and Mary not idolatry.

How is asking your friends and family to pray for you idolatry?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

What is your belief on Total Depravity(

We don’t believe in it.
We believe mankind is fallen but still capable of doing good in the world.
At the same time, Salvation is from Jesus

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

How do you justify the baptism of infants

Because in Acts we see the baptism of entire households.

 

[John10]

1)So how do you justify the Pope in scripture.

We justify it because Christ gave Peter the “keys” of His Kingdom, and only to Peter. Properly understood, it means he will be in charge of the Catholic Church until Christ returns.

1. Purgatory

It is a state rather than a place (spirits do not care about places, as they are immaterial). If someone dies while remaining in a state of Grace, but still has venial sins, those must be cleanse off before entering Heaven. As nothing impure will enter Heaven, the soul would suffer a “purifying” process to help it detach completely from those sins. It is a very difficult and painful experience, and I am sure it is way better to do penance here than purgatory later on. Besides you could be stuck in purgatory for a very long time, depending on your circumstances. It is also a clear sign of the unfathomable mercy from our Lord, who does not want any to “perish”.

1. How do you justify the baptism of infants(since they do not comprehend their own existence much less an unseen God).

Easy, parents must always look out for their children, making the best choices for them, until they grow and become old enough to be able to make their own decisions. That is why parents go to the doctor when their child is sick, they do not delay it until later, since they must always act in the best interest of their child. There is nothing better for a child than be baptized and become as soon as possible an adopted children of God.

1. What are your beliefs on free-will

It is true we have free will, only free will creatures can ever truly love, which is something God asks us to do. Of course it also means, we can do evil, but that is a risk worth taking, since true authentic love is so precious and the world is in such great need of it. There is indeed no greater poverty that people who feel lonely and unloved (regardless of how much wealth and material abundance they might have).

 

[Gorgias]

“Total depravity” is not a term in Catholic use, but I believe it corresponds to what we call original sin.

Total depravity goes much further than “original sin”, and isn’t compatible with Catholic teaching…

 

[po18guy]

Total depravity is a belief traceable only to Jean Cauvin. It is nowhere in the bible - being a distortion of scripture. Rather, look up “concupiscence” which is our less-than-totally-depraved nature as a result of original sin. Jesus said “If you, evil as you are know how to do good things for your children…”

That is not total depravity.

Methinks you misunderstand the “Word” The Word is Jesus Christ, the Word made Flesh. It is not the printed page, and that is not what Saint John wrote or meant. The Word was made Flesh and Dwelt among us. Living, breathing Son of God. The bible, good and inspired as it is, remains only a partial, fragmentary record of the living, breathing Christ. John tells us in at least two places that the bible is incomplete.

Christ never intended any writing to be used in the faith. That we have the Catholic book known as the bible is a great blessing but - and this is crucial - used by itself, the bible is far better at dividing than uniting. The disintegrating bible Christian world is proof of this a thousand times over. Christ did not leave us orphans, to fend for ourselves. He left a CEO in charge and Apostles guided by the Holy Spirit.

Baptism. Each and every scriptural reference to it reveals the channel of God’s grace that it is. “Baptism now saves you” Children? Entire households were baptized. “The promise is for you and for your children”

Read Luke 5, where the friends bring the paralytic and lower him through the roof. Our Lord saw the faith of the friends and His grace of forgiveness flowed to the paralytic! No evidence at all that the paralytic man believed anything. Those who loved him sought healing and God in Christ rewarded that faith.

Parents who love their children, seek healing from original sin. Their faith calls God’s grace upon their children exactly as with the paralytic. The “Believer’s Baptism” was thought up in 1607 by John Smyth in England. He was partially right, but not completely - otherwise he would be Pope, no?

Jack Chick, may be rest in peace, was a Catholic hating man. I asked because some of your arguments echoed him. Rather, read G.K. Chesterton! Read Saint John Henry Newman. - he gave up everything to leave the Anglican Church, losing life-long friends. He famously wrote: “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant” and he was convicted in his conscience, after tracing the Church back to its origins. A brilliant scholar.

Enough to digest.

 

[Dan_Defender]

6.2) How does free-will not limit the sovereign authority of God over his creation.

Because God loves us, we are created with free will. Otherwise we would be robots.
God is all knowing and knows what I will do with my free will. But I don’t, so from my perspective I am free to choose or reject faith, grace, etc. God’s omniscience and human free will are concepts not in opposition.

 

[Gorgias]

God’s omniscience and human free will are concepts not in opposition.

More to the point of @Reformedbaptist’s question, God’s omnipotence and human free will are realities which are not in opposition!