Non-Catholic religions and abortion

[ncgolf]

wow what a stretch. And you see no difference between the absence of a mind (my point) and racial features?

Absolutely not a stretch. Your limited, minimum standard of personhood begins the process of allowing the destruction of human being, we then begin the quibbling over the standard. The Nazis only had a more obivious and heinous method of differentiation but by my reasoning yours and theirs accomplish the same thing. I see no difference … it is an arbitrary standard used to remove a segment of the population from the face of the earth.

the presence of a mind defines a person. does fertilized eggs have a mind? does very young embryos have a mind? I am 100% sure that the answer to those are NO & NO.

Where does your definition of personhood come from … it is still arbitrary. How does anyone show they have a mind, in utero. We can see they have a heart, limbs, suck their thumb but where does this mind thing come into play? Is there a test for mindhood in utero or does the fact that arm, legs, heart, brain automatically give them mindhood. Embryologist can remove certain cells from the blastocyst and prevent certain organs from growing. So, if you remove just one cell you can prevent arms, legs, eyes etc from development. I do not believe there is a cell for the mind … brain maybe … but not mind, so you base your personhood not on something genetically present but by some other test which then becomes based on a set of standards. Give those standards of mindhood? What is this test? How does anyone pass it?

that only sounds good on paper. its entirely different when it actually happens to you. the unwanted child of a brutal serial rapist, no way.

I am not disagreeing with the horribleness of the crime but only the response. Personhood applies to all regardless of circumstance. You called the unwanted thing … a child. Child does not depend on where it came from whether a loving, conjugal union or a rape. The qualities of a child are exactly the same and present in both to the fullest.

 

[AgnosTheist]

How does anyone show they have a mind.

lets work our way up, beginning at the moment of conception.

fertilized eggs doesnt have a single brain cell. so tell me, do fertilized eggs have a mind? are fertilized eggs a person?

 

[iamrefreshed]

Life begins at the testicles. The question is, what kinds of life? Sperm life, Egg life, and Embryo life is not human life. Human life begins with a human mind.

That is not a provable point.(Human life begins with a human mind).

Since it is not provable we must use another base to form a discussion.

We catholics use the base of what the embryo will become. Since it will become a human, and killing humans is wrong, we state you cannot kill the embryo.

Since this base does not fit your opinion on abortion what other base would you suggest?

 

[estesbob]

lets work our way up, beginning at the moment of conception.

fertilized eggs doesnt have a single brain cell.

So?

so tell me, do fertilized eggs have a mind? are fertilized eggs a person?

The question is are they Human?

 

[Abraxsis]

IMO, a baby is only a baby if it is a person (one that has a personality, or a self-aware sentient mind). I dont think a very young embryo is already a person.

And in that case why should a rape victim & her spouse endure the pains & punishment of bearing & raising the child of her violator? Me, I love having a second child. But I can hardly afford it. If my wife gets raped and she wants to abort the result, i would be more than happy to agree with her. I would rather that we bear & raise the product of our own love.

If having a self-aware sentient mind is the deciding factor of being a person or not then even new born babies dont fit that category and neither do mental retarded people and vegetated people. I dont think that is good criteria for whether or not its a person yet.

 

[elvisman]

lets work our way up, beginning at the moment of conception.

fertilized eggs doesnt have a single brain cell. so tell me, do fertilized eggs have a mind? are fertilized eggs a person?

Agnos - are you going to address my post - or is it that you CAN’T?
Here it is again for your review (please refrain from using offensive epithets like you have in other threads):

If your child wasn’t always a person - what was he/she?
You’re not a baby anymore. I presume you’re an adult - who grew and changed.
The Church doesn’t look the same as it did when it started - it grew.
The United States doesn’t look like it did before because it matured and grew.
You can’t have it both ways, Agnos. Either a person is a person from conception or it will never be a person. Just as a chicken’s egg that has not gone to full term contains a chicken - not a goat.
*This is plight of those trapped in the flawed and convoluted ideas of moral relativism.
*Like the bumper sticker says, "If it’s not a baby - you’re not pregnant!"

 

[ncgolf]

lets work our way up, beginning at the moment of conception.

fertilized eggs doesnt have a single brain cell. so tell me, do fertilized eggs have a mind? are fertilized eggs a person?

So … they don’t have arms, legs, teeth either. In a sense that egg has a mind of its own because it somehow knows what it must do to survive. The egg travels and begins its quest for implantation into the uterus. No implanatation, no survival. Surviving those first few days becomes imperitive so there is some sort of survival behavior built in, intrinsically into that fertilized egg. It is attempting to live.

Now a mind is quality that we can say we have over the animals, as far as we can tell. We are rational, can think and respond differently than what a wild animal has the capibility to. So a mind is only a quality of what a person may posess but not the sole criteria of personhood. It is a differentiator between us and animals but not between life and death.

 

[AgnosTheist]

That is not a provable point.(Human life begins with a human mind).

oh yes it is. what makes us human? is it our arms, our legs, our heart? our head? no its our mind that makes us human. a living human body without a human mind is just a zombie. its brain dead. its not a person anymore.

much less a mindless embryo.

We catholics use the base of what the embryo will become. Since it will become a human, and killing humans is wrong, we state you cannot kill the embryo.

if you put religion into the mix, then I cannot argue with that. catholics believe that God grants the soul at the moment of conception.

Since this base does not fit your opinion on abortion what other base would you suggest?

as always, the presence of a mind. i agree with abortion only under limited conditions. the older the embryo becomes the more limits I see. if its too young (3 months or less), it doesnt have a mind and it should be ok to abort at will. After that its only ok if it threatens the life of the host.

 

[AgnosTheist]

So … they don’t have arms, legs, teeth either. In a sense that egg has a mind of its own because it somehow knows what it must do to survive. The egg travels and begins its quest for implantation into the uterus. No implanatation, no survival. Surviving those first few days becomes imperitive so there is some sort of survival behavior built in, intrinsically into that fertilized egg. It is attempting to live.

wait a minute, how do you define a ‘human mind’? and you did not answer the question ‘is a fertilized egg a person?’. and for that matter please share how you define ‘person’.

 

[iamrefreshed]

oh yes it is. what makes us human? is it our arms, our legs, our heart? our head? no its our mind that makes us human. a living human body without a human mind is just a zombie. its brain dead. its not a person anymore.

An animal has a mind so, with your argument, is human?

I believe you need to distinctly define what you believe constitues a human mind.

 

[AgnosTheist]

If your child wasn’t always a person - what was he/she?

an it. a mindless lump of flesh.
elvisman;2804428:

You’re

not a baby anymore. I presume you’re an adult - who grew and changed.
The Church doesn’t look the same as it did when it started - it grew.
The United States doesn’t look like it did before because it matured and grew.

thats an improper analogy.

You can’t have it both ways, Agnos.

Either a person is a person from conception or it will never be a person.

how do you define ‘person’?

Just as a chicken’s egg

that has not gone to full term contains a chicken -

i am not discussing ‘full term’ here. see above for my conditions on abortion.

 

[AgnosTheist]

An animal has a mind so, with your argument, is human?

read my post previous to yours.

I believe you need to distinctly define what you believe constitues a human mind.

I asked first, so after you guys.

 

[Abraxsis]

We know human life begins at conception because we understand the science of the embryo. You need a diploid cell that can multiply. One sperm and one egg provide that, one without the other is not human life. The state of the mind in the individual does not matter all that does is the genetic make up.

 

[iamrefreshed]

read my post previous to yours.



I asked first, so after you guys.

Actually I answered when I stated that what the child in the womb is…a human being, from conception.

Are you sidestepping my question?

 

[snowfly]

Life begins at the testicles. The question is, what kinds of life? Sperm life, Egg life, and Embryo life is not human life. Human life begins with a human mind.

Absolute rubbish, a sperm will die without the egg, it takes two to tango, and two to create a human being.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Actually I answered when I stated that what the child in the womb is…a human being, from conception.

Are you sidestepping my question?

you asked me how i define the human mind, i wanted to hear yours first, but oh well:

The Human Mind collectively refers to the aspects of intellect and consciousness manifested as combinations of thought, perception, memory, emotion, will and imagination. It is the stream of consciousness.

Now how do YOU define ‘human mind’?

 

[estesbob]

wait a minute, how do you define a ‘human mind’? and you did not answer the question ‘is a fertilized egg a person?’. and for that matter please share how you define ‘person’.

And therein lies the problem. The definition of “person” is totally subjective and allows one to use any definition they want to back up their argument. Throughout the history of mankind we have seen the abuse of this ability to come up with any definition one want-blacks being considewred only 3/5 a person comes to mind.

The only relevant definition we need to consider is whether or not a fertilized egg is human. It most certainly is . It is not reasonable to make the protection of human life based upon any subjective analysis.

 

[ncgolf]

wait a minute, how do you define a ‘human mind’? and you did not answer the question ‘is a fertilized egg a person?’. and for that matter please share how you define ‘person’.

To me the definition of what the human mind is not really that important. It is no more important than the human leg, or human eye but if I was to give a quick definition it is a quality of personhood most likely acquired through experience with the environment.

A person is the object created by the union of sperm and egg. As soon as that event occurs the object receives the intrinsic and extrinsic qualites of what created it. It is not dependent on anything the object does, or doesnt do, where the object resides, thinks, eats etc. Persons beget persons while I think you suggest persons beget non-persons until such time that some quality(mind) is attained then personhood is given or earned. You suggest that is why they can be destroyed because they are non-persons otherwise it would be murder.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The only relevant definition we need to consider is whether or not a fertilized egg is human.

DEAL! now show me a scientific definition of “Human Being” and show me how it fully applies to a fertilized egg.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Absolute rubbish, a sperm will die without the egg, it takes two to tango, and two to create a human being.

pure rubbish. we all die. fetuses die. babies die. the question is, when does life begin? sperms have a life of their own. dead sperms dont fertilize eggs.