Non-Catholic religions and abortion

[kellie]

all.org/abac/dni003.htm

"To begin with, scientifically something very dramatic occurs between the processes of gametogenesis and fertilization - the change from two simple PARTS of a human being, i.e., a sperm and an oocyte (usually referred to as an “ovum” or “egg”), which simply possess “human life” into a new, genetically unique, newly existing, individual, live human BEING, an embryonic single-cell human zygote. That is, parts of a human being have actually been transformed into something very different from what they were before; they have been changed into a single, whole human being. During this process, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist, and a new human being is produced. "

I’m sorry for your loss.

Your blastocyst was much more than an egg. It was human life capable of interacting with it’s environment and modifying it. The fact that the implanted into the uterine wall and produce chemical messengers to stimulate the uterus to produce the placenta proves that it was alive. Since every cell in the blastocyst contained human DNA, the blastocyst is by definition a living human. This human had a very short life.

And there was no foetal blood in my discharge, the doctors told me.
How so if I created a human life?

 

[AgnosTheist]

So? Do you have any idea the enormity of your ‘question’? I’ll let you in on something. Most of the people you see walking around everyday, they are broken. They have suffered betrayal, rape, abuse, incest, lack of love to name just a few. Be careful what you ask.

This portion of your post just proves out my response above. Does it matter why? We went through a very difficult time. Would it make a difference if it was rape, wife’s medical decision or birth defects?

my dear, I was referring to the rare conditions wherein a pregnant woman suffers from such a mortal injury that any attempts to save her life would surely kill the embryo she is carrying. yet if she dies, the embryo would surely die too. the question is which of you would rather choose to let her die than kill the embryo ahead of time.

 

[estesbob]

my dear, I was referring to the rare conditions wherein a pregnant woman suffers from such a mortal injury that any attempts to save her life would surely kill the embryo she is carrying. yet if she dies, the embryo would surely die too. the question is which of you would rather choose to let her die than kill the embryo ahead of time.

I suggest you do a little research on the Principle of the Double effect. No abortion takes place in the situation you describe.

You have changed the question significanly , BTW, the question I resonded to was “yes but not the tough choice of deciding who should live or die.” which in my mind covers a lot more gorund than abortion.

 

[estesbob]

And there was no foetal blood in my discharge, the doctors told me.
How so if I created a human life?

Having “blood” is not a requirement of human life
.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I suggest you do a little research on the Principle of the Double effect. No abortion takes place in the situation you describe.

well then, how would you deal with the situation?

You have changed the question significanly

the wordings may be a little changed but the core message is exactly the same.

, BTW, the question I resonded to was “yes but not the tough choice of deciding who should live or die.” which in my mind covers a lot more gorund than abortion.

yes to what? yes to go ahead with saving the woman’s life even if it means that the baby would be killed in the process?

 

[estesbob]

well then, how would you deal with the situation?

the wordings may be a little changed but the core message is exactly the same.

yes to what? yes to go ahead with saving the woman’s life even if it means that the baby would be killed in the process?

Read up on the principle of the double effect-there is no abortion in the situation you describe-in fact there is no ethical delima at all.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Read up on the principle of the double effect-there is no abortion in the situation you describe-in fact there is no ethical delima at all.

just answer the question.

i answer your questions no matter how ridiculous they are.

 

[estesbob]

just answer the question.

i answer your questions no matter how ridiculous they are.

I did. I said there is no moral moral dilemma here. You treat them Mother. If that inadvertently causes the child’s death it is a side effect of the treatment of the mother and is not an abortion.

Again you need to research the principle of double effect.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I did. I said there is no moral moral dilemma here.

i did not ask you whether or not there is a moral dilemma. i asked (all of) you whether or not you would save the woman’s life even if it kills the embryo. Are you saying ‘yes’ to this question?

 

[estesbob]

i did not ask you whether or not there is a moral dilemma. i asked (all of) you whether or not you would save the woman’s life even if it kills the embryo. Are you saying ‘yes’ to this question?

If the death of the child is not as a result of direct act to kill it but instead is a side effect of treating the mother Catholic teaching says it is totally acceptable. Why is this is so hard for you to grasp?

 

[AgnosTheist]

If the death of the child is not as a result of direct act to kill it but instead is a side effect of treating the mother Catholic teaching says it is totally acceptable. Why is this is so hard for you to grasp?

actually i think your answer plainly simple to grasp. thank goodness you finally found the courage to answer.

anyway i congratulate you for your reasonable answer. you would save the woman even if it indirectly kills the baby. whether or not a form of abortion took place is really just a matter of opinion.

 

[Holly3278]

But does an embryo have a soul? This is a subject that is confusing for me.

Yes an embryo has a soul. It has a soul from the moment of conception. This is what we, as Catholics, believe.

 

[wanner47]

actually i think your answer plainly simple to grasp. thank goodness you finally found the courage to answer.

anyway i congratulate you for your reasonable answer. you would save the woman even if it indirectly kills the baby. whether or not a form of abortion took place is really just a matter of opinion.

There’s a distinction here that you’re not seeing.

If the death of the child is an UNINTENDED side effect of the treatment to the mother, then it’s morally acceptable by Catholic teaching.

If CAUSING the death of the child is the MEANS to save the mother, then it is NOT acceptable by Catholic moral teaching.

 

[estesbob]

because there was nothing to grasp. i dont remember any catholics answering this until now.

anyway i congratulate you for your reasonable answer. you would save the woman even if it indirectly kills the baby. whether or not a form of abortion took place is really just a matter of opinion.

Not a matter of opinion all. Abortion is the direct, purposeful killing of unborn child,. The situation you describe is no different than if the mother had a car wreck and miscarried as a result of it.

 

[estesbob]

There’s a distinction here that you’re not seeing.

If the death of the child is an UNINTENDED side effect of the treatment to the mother, then it’s morally acceptable by Catholic teaching.

If CAUSING the death of the child is the MEANS to save the mother, then it is NOT acceptable by Catholic moral teaching.

Agreed. In the scenario he gave the death of the child was anunintended side effect. The second scenario is so rare that is hardly worth discussing but it would be wrong to kill a child in an attempt to save the mother’s life.

My grandmother had this situation in the mid-20s. She was told that she should abort my mother or she would die. She declined-to the great joy of my mom, , myself ,my siblings and a multitude of grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

 

[AgnosTheist]

If the death of the child is an UNINTENDED side effect of the treatment to the mother, then it’s morally acceptable by Catholic teaching.

If CAUSING the death of the child is the MEANS to save the mother, then it is NOT acceptable by Catholic moral teaching.

that is the most crystal clear detailed answer i ever got in this discussion.

 

[Jennifer123]

And there was no foetal blood in my discharge, the doctors told me.
How so if I created a human life?

mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112
Please refer to the following link that has a good review of embryology. It is scientific fact that a sperm and egg combine to form an embryo, at which point the sperm and egg cease to exist. At the earliest stages, the embryo is called the zygote.

If your doctor told you otherwise, he/she was either gravely mistaken or in an unfortunate decision chose not to let you know the status of the humanity of the baby in maybe a misguided effort to save your feelings.

Again, I’m sorry for your loss.

 

[Jennifer123]

whether or not a form of abortion took place is really just a matter of opinion.

No abortion took place because an abortion is a deliberate act. If the effect of treatment for the mother causes the baby to die unintentionally then no direct harm was caused to the baby and said act is not immoral.

This is a principle of Natural Law theory called the Double Effect.

 

[fierysword1920]

God gave us reason to utilize properly his religion agnostheist. An embryo is a person at the begining stages of life. Because it eases your conscience to view a human life as not being real or alive at a certain stage of development does in no way shape or form make you right. I forget the name of the Saint but he was the product of a rape done to his mother and grew up and I belive he became a miraculous advocate and slave to the cause of orphans and widows.
This is a case that proves God does everything for a reason and only he can take something evil or seemingly and change it to something beautiful and great.
God Bless.

 

[Valke2]

God gave us reason to utilize properly his religion agnostheist. An embryo is a person at the begining stages of life. Because it eases your conscience to view a human life as not being real or alive at a certain stage of development does in no way shape or form make you right. I forget the name of the Saint but he was the product of a rape done to his mother and grew up and I belive he became a miraculous advocate and slave to the cause of orphans and widows.
This is a case that proves God does everything for a reason and only he can take something evil or seemingly and change it to something beautiful and great.
God Bless.

What about the case of the young girl who had an abortion and was able to complete college, got married, had two beautiful children, one of which enriched the lives of thousands as an outstanding doctor because her mother was able to send her to medical school. Is that a case proving that God does everything for a reason?