Non-catholic Salvation

[MementoMori3283]

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Romans 10:13

So, the self proclaimed Apostle Paul, accepted into the fold of the universal Church by Peter and the Apostles after a personal revelation by Christ Himself, our dear brother in Christ and venerable saint, who Catholics pray to for intercession, says in one verse of thousands upon thousands.
Jesus Christ:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Hmmmmm:shrug:

Thank you God for providing us with a great depth of knowledge in all your Scripture and the teachings provided by the Holy Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit of Truth:thumbsup:

 

[ChristianRoots]

The Roman Catholic Church is not mentioned in the Bible; it is not necessary for salvation.

The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, either. By your logic then, belief in the Trinity should not be necessary for salvation, right?

What?..Oh…Oh, I see… the word Trinity is not in Scripture but its meaning is clearly taught in Scripture.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you

Same goes for the Catholic Church.

 

[Jesuspaiditall]

The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, either. By your logic then, belief in the Trinity should not be necessary for salvation, right?

What?..Oh…Oh, I see… the word Trinity is not in Scripture but its meaning is clearly taught in Scripture.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you

Same goes for the Catholic Church.

There is no proof that Peter even went to Rome. Does the Bible say you must be a part of any church?

 

[ChristianRoots]

There is no proof that Peter even went to Rome. Does the Bible say you must be a part of any church?

Sacred Tradition asserts that Peter was in Rome.

I see everything must be explicitly spelled out for you in the Bible for you to believe it.

What word do you then use to describe the Trinity? The word Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Bible. In other words, the Holy Spirit never inspired any of the New Testament authors to use that word when describing the nature of God, so why do you use a non-biblical word to describe Him?

Using your logic, you should assume that God wanted His nature described **only **as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now that would be biblical. So do you always refer to God’s nature as such? Or do you in fact use a word that is unbiblical?

All sola scripturists eventually become…hyprocrites.

 

[Jesuspaiditall]

Sacred Tradition asserts that Peter was in Rome.

I see everything must be explicitly spelled out for you in the Bible for you to believe it.

What word do you then use to describe the Trinity? The word Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Bible. In other words, the Holy Spirit never inspired any of the New Testament authors to use that word when describing the nature of God, so why do you use a non-biblical word to describe Him?

Using your logic, you should assume that God wanted His nature described **only **as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now that would be biblical. So do you always refer to God’s nature as such? Or do you in fact use a word that is unbiblical?

All sola scripturists eventually become…hyprocrites.

We use HUNDREDS of verses to know that the trinity is. What verses do you have as evidence of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[ChristianRoots]

We use HUNDREDS of verses to know that the trinity is. What verses do you have as evidence of the Roman Catholic Church?

Is the word Trinity part of your vocabulary? Yes or no?

If it’s yes, how do you reconcile the fact that the word is unbiblical, as in not found in Scripture?

(If the Holy Spirit didn’t inspired anyone to use it, why do you think it is OK to go against the Holy Spirit and use that word to describe God’s nature?)

If no, what **biblical **word do you use to describe the nature of God?

 

[Fisher]

“There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”
ST LOUIS MARIE DE MONTFORT

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the **abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh **

that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the** salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
2Cr 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation**.
2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)
2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Phl 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Phl 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to** salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. **2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Tts 2:11 **For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, **

Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great ; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]; salvation
Hbr 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their **salvation **perfect through sufferings.
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal **salvation **unto all them that obey him;
Hbr 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church<—where did it say that in the bible.

 

[Fisher]

I see everything must be explicitly spelled out for you in the Bible for you to believe it.

What word do you then use to** describe the Trinity**? The word Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Bible. In other words, the Holy Spirit never inspired any of the New Testament authors to use that word when describing the nature of God, so why do you use a non-biblical word to describe Him?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the **Godhead bodily. **

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the** name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:**

1Jo 5:7 **For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. **

 

[Crepusculum]

Let me ask you a question: If you met a person who professed Jesus Christ to be their personal Lord and saviour, but who only consider the gospel of Judas and the gospel of Mary Magdalene to be sacred New Testament scripture, would you consider that person to be on a particularly stable path to salvation?

1. 
   *]If your answer was “yes”, then where do you draw the line between “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life” (Jn 3:15) and idolatry if people are permitted to pick and choose what they accept the meaning of the person of Jesus to be? Could he not be Bob from the construction site down the road as long as there is an ancient document that can be interpreted to suggests he is?
   
   *]If your answer was “no”, then since it was the councils which decided whether you think of those gospels as inspired, you recognise “The Church” mentioned in 1 Tim 3:15 as the “pillar and foundation of truth” as being the Catholic (Greek “Universal”) Church, which is also called the “mystical body of Christ” (Col 1:24), with Christ as the head of the body (Col 1:18, Eph 1:22). The Church which is founded on the Petrine ministry and will never be destroyed (Mat 16:18). The Church which revealed itself on pentecost and consequently grew (Acts 2:41-42). The Church which Saul persecuted (Acts 8:1-3). The Church which baptises by water and the holy spirit in the name of the trinity (Jn 3:5, Mat 28:19, Acts 10:44-47, Titus 3:5, 1 Cor 12:12-13, 1 Pet 3:20-21). The Church which appoints deacons, priests/presbyters and bishops/elders by the power of Christ the high priest in the order of Melchizedek (Phi 1:1, 1 Tim 3:1-12, Romans 15:15-17, 1 Pet 2:5-9, Rev 1:6, Titus 1:5-11, Heb 7:11-17). The Church who, by its Head, granted the power to forgive sins to men (Jam 5:16, Mat 9:6-8, Jn 20:21). The Church which maintains the eucharist, warns against taking it unworthily and holds that those who do not take it have no life in them (1 Cor 11:23-29, Mk 14:22-24, Mt 26:26-28, Jn 6:1-66, 1 Cor 10:16, Lk 22:19)
   
   That said, a lot is being made of the list of draconian quotes near the start of this topic, but skipping entirely the post right after it which places those quotes into the context of what (most - should be all) Catholics actually believe.
   
   Hope that helps,

 

[ChristianRoots]

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[mozart-250]

God decided what is in the Bible.

That answer sidesteps the issue.

Of course God before the foundation of the earth decided what would be in the Bible. And of course God made sure that (only) what He preordained would be in the Bible would actually be included in the Bible.

The issue here is did God use humans in the process of determining what would be included and what would be excluded from the Bible. Of course God did. There is no document written signed by God that lists the books of the Bible.

Of course Catholics have some creative conclusions from this observation that do not necessarily logically follow. However Protestants do themselves no credit with smart-aleck statements like the above.

 

[notself]

The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV

“…It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

“The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman: unique, the Chair founded on Peter. Outside her fold is to be found neither the true fold nor eternal salvation, for it is impossible to have God for a Father if one does not have the Church for a Mother.”
VEN POPE PIUS IX

“There is only one universal church of the faithful, outside which there is absolutely no salvation.”
IV Lateran Council

“It is a sin to believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church!”
VEN POPE PIUS IX

“There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”
ST LOUIS MARIE DE MONTFORT

“It must be held as a matter of faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only
Ark of Salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood.”
VEN POPE PIUS IX

“There is no entering into salvation outside of the Church, just as in the time of the Deluge there was none outside the Ark which denotes the Church.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II

“I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved.”
POPE SYLVESTER II

“It is impossible to be joined to God except through Jesus Christ; it is impossilbe to be united to Christ except in and through the Church; finally, it is impossible to belong to the Church except through the bishops who are united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter.”
POPE JOHN XXIII

“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI

First point: Authority.

Internet posters have no authority, which is why I like to quote popes, saints, and councils. Therein, lies Catholic authority. If it’s just opinions you are looking for, there will be many. But, are they authoritative and true?

Second point: Context.

There will be many people here posing as Catholics, who will try and ecumenize these quotes to make them less offensive to you. They will say that I have pulled these quotes out of context. Eternal truth, such as is represented by these quotes, like mathematical truth, has no context. What is the context of 2+2=4? Of course, there is no context. It is true on its very face.

Thank you for the quotes directly from the teachings of the Church. Many on this board either don’t know this teaching or are hesitant to explain it. I seem to get my post deleted or threads closed whenever I ask the question. Your answer is greatly appreciated.

With your permission, I will copy this for future reference.

Metta
notself

 

[brkn1]

The Church which appoints deacons, priests/presbyters and bishops/elders by the power of Christ the high priest in the order of Melchizedek (Phi 1:1, 1 Tim 3:1-12, Romans 15:15-17, 1 Pet 2:5-9, Rev 1:6, Titus 1:5-11, Heb 7:11-17).

I see you correctly pointing to Jesus Christ as our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec, which the Bible also clearly does.

You mention the biblical appointment of deacons, bishops/elders.

(1 Peter 2:9) does call all believers a “royal priesthood”, but I have a real problem finding any scripture that proves the Catholic appointment of actual “priests” as the RCC claims.

My understanding of the RCC appointed priesthood is very different than the “royal priesthood” that Peter spoke of in reference to all believers.
The RCC believes that they can appoint priests after the order of Melchisedec, which violates the biblical qualifications of such an appointment, since it was only by God’s oath that such a priest was appointed. (Hebrews 7:20-21)
Another necessary qualification is that such a priest must have the “power of an endless life.” (Hebrews 7:16)

The RCC priests can not truly qualify for such a priesthood after the order of Melchisedec, except that the clearly explained biblical qualifications be dismissed.

 

[ChristianRoots]

That answer sidesteps the issue.

Of course God before the foundation of the earth decided what would be in the Bible. And of course God made sure that (only) what He preordained would be in the Bible would actually be included in the Bible.

The issue here is did God use humans in the process of determining what would be included and what would be excluded from the Bible. Of course God did. There is no document written signed by God that lists the books of the Bible.

**Of course Catholics have some creative conclusions from this observation that do not necessarily logically follow. ** However Protestants do themselves no credit with smart-aleck statements like the above.

What is illogical about the Catholic position?

Protestants say it was the Holy Spirit working through men that led them to decide the 27 books of the New Testament. That determination itself was an extrabiblical event, i.e. found only outside of Scripture. Why do Protestants refer to the almighty power of the Holy Spirit as the reason for knowning the canon but then, once the canon was decided, regulate the Holy Spirit’s power to only helping people “fully comprehend” the meaning of Scripture?

Such a **“creative” **conclusion contradicts Scripture and the practices of the early Chrisitans, and puts a limit on the power of the Holy Spirit.

If you disagree, or if I have misrepresented the Protestant position, then tell me **your creative **conclusions on how the canon was compiled.

 

[FCEGM]

:clapping:

Thanks Crep, those like Rogue who seem to want to forget that all those old quotes from Popes and Synods need to be understood in proper context, and that context is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Not all “Cafetria Catholics” are liberals, some are traditionalists. Further, quotes from Saints like Montfort have no bearing on the proper interpretation of Catholic Teaching…a Saint is not Infallible.

Too true. Yes, it is still a vital part of official Catholic doctrine, but as you and Crep have pointed out: context, context, context.

In the papal (and/or patristic) statements of earlier centuries what was the context and the truth of those statements? What, if not that the visible Church is necessary for salvation? And this is still true today and will not change.

The difference between the papal statements of earlier ages and our time is in applying this revealed Truth on the necessity of the Church for salvation regarding those not in the visible Church. Rogue quoted St. Louis de Montfort, but he neglected to quote St. Augustine: “there are some in the visible body of the Church who are not of its soul, and some have its soul who are not in the visible body."

PATTHEPOET, the quotes from the CCC give the proper understanding of Catholic Teaching.

Yes. And I think, too, that The Catholic Catechism, written by John Hardon, S.J., 1975, is helpful on the issue:

“The Catholic Church makes claims about herself that are easily misunderstood, especially in the modern atmosphere of pluralism and ecumenism. Among these claims, the most fundamental is the doctrine of the Church’s necessity for salvation. Not unlike other dogmas of the faith, this one has seen some remarkable development, and the dogmatic progress has been especially marked since the definition of papal infallibility. It seems that as the Church further clarified her own identity as regards the papacy and collegiality, she also deepened (without changing) her self-understanding as the mediator of salvation to mankind. . .

“. . .Actual incorporation into the Church takes place by baptism of water. Those who are not actually baptized may, nevertheless, be saved through the Church according to their faith in whatever historical revelation they come to know and in their adequate cooperation with the internal graces of the Spirit they receive.

“On both counts, however, whoever is saved owes his salvation to the one Catholic Church founded by Christ. It is to this Church alone that Christ entrusted the truths of revelation which have by now, though often dimly, penetrated all cultures of mankind. It is this Church alone that communicates the merits won for the whole world on the cross.

“Those who are privileged to share in the fullness of the Church’s riches of revealed wisdom, sacramental power, divinely assured guidance, and blessings of community life cannot pride themselves on having deserved what they possess. Rather they should humbly recognize their chosen position and gratefully live up to the covenant to which they have been called. Otherwise what began as a sign of God’s special favor on earth may end as a witness to his justice in the life to come.” (pp. 234-6).