Non Catholic view of Mariology II

[Monergistic]

What regard others give him is irrelevant to this discussion, Monergistic. It is the analogy which is apropros.

Do you find the question addressed in an insightful way through the analogy?

That is, do you understand how Mary needed a savior yet never sinned better now that you can visualize a woman being saved before falling into a pit, while the rest of the world fell in?

I see the idea, as far as it goes, but I’m not willing to concede that salvation prior to falling into the pit is a real, viable possibility, even for God. (Emphasis on the word “real”).

Furthermore, if preventative salvation were a real thing, why would God prefer to let anyone fall? And why would God prefer to die, rather than prevent everyone from falling in the first place?

Isn’t this one of the reasons why Jesus came to die- because preventative salvation is not a real, actual thing?

And isn’t this one of the reasons why Duns Scotus is not held in particularly high esteem outside Catholicism- because his arguments are not exceptionally good, convincing, or noteworthy?

 

[joe371]

You make a great point. Good thing St. Athanasius has already answered that question (amazing really how one piece of work that isn’t even that long has answers to almost everything about soteriology). Acknowledging that the issue of soteriology is one of corruption of nature, and not merely sin as an offense, means that even if one was not to commit any sin, such as the Theotokos, would still need to be saved.

The fact that Mary never sinned (forget about original sin) certainly separates her from the every other human, all which have sinned, past, present and future - right?

 

[joe371]

Do Protestants even believe in Original Sin, which is what the above post implies?

Yes they do. OS is rejected by the Orthodox Churches…

 

[joe371]

Original sin DID leave us with the tendancy to sin.

As for did Mary ever sin… The Church’s answer is “no”.

Of course God would want a stainless ark for the New Covenant (Jesus, of course, being the New Covenant!), and that is why Mary was born by way of a sinless immaculate conception. After the birth of Jesus, the Church teaches that Mary REMAINED sinless. A priest once explained that Mary remained sinless so Satan could never say to Jesus, “I had your mother!” Even if it was for a short period of time…

 

[PRmerger]

Suppose I come at you with something that Hans Kung said. No matter how brilliant the argument is, the fact that it’s Hans Kung always means something, and someone will let me know every time I bring him up (which is something that I know better than to do).

Perhaps this is what your pastor teaches in your church, but this is not the Catholic model.

We accept what anyone says, as long as it is true.

Thus, even while the Church may depart from the philosophy espoused by, say, radical feminists, to the degree that what Rosemary Radford Ruether says is in conformity with that which the Apostles taught, is the degree that we give it a

Thus, we will give a to this, coming from RRR: “Wisdom is described as a emanation of God”

True, dat.

Even if it’s coming from a radical feminist who has divorced herself from her Catholic faith.

 

[PRmerger]

Isn’t this one of the reasons why Jesus came to die- because preventative salvation is not a real, actual thing?

If you could proffer a verse from Scripture that supports this view, that would be helpful.

Otherwise, what you are saying is a man-made tradition–something you heard a man say, who heard another man say, who heard another man say it…but no one ever read the above in a single page of the Bible.

Or, you just thought of it yourself, and no one has ever taught it in the history of Christendom.

 

[joe371]

That was indeed addressed. The Greek word used for Stephen is different than that which is used as a title for Mary. Both are translated “full of grace” but mean different things.

Regarding Acts 6:8, is part in red correct? Or is it pleres charitos which is “a temporary filling with grace at that point in time,” and does not equate to kechariomene,” which means “has been filled with grace.”?

scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act6.pdf
stefanos
stephanos
G4736
n_ Nom Sg m
Stephen
de
de
G1161
Conj
YET
plhrhs
plErEs
G4134
a_ Nom Sg m
FULL
pistews
pisteOs
G4102
n_ Gen Sg f
OF-BELIEF
of-faith
kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND
dunamews
dunameOs
G1411
n_ Gen Sg f
OF-ABILITY
power
epoiei
epoiei
G4160
vi Impf Act 3 Sg
DID
terata
terata
G5059
n_ Acc Pl n
MIRACLES
kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND
. And Stephen, full of faith
and power, did great wonders
and miracles among the
people.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The fact that Mary never sinned (forget about original sin) certainly separates her from the every other human, all which have sinned, past, present and future - right?

No. Committing a sin (or not committing it) has nothing to do with human nature. Sure, once is exceptional if they did not sin at all, but that doesn’t change their nature.

St. John the Baptist was also sanctified in the womb, he is also believed to not have committed any sin in his life.

St. Nicholas of Myra was said to have started a life of fasting and prayer from infancy.

 

[joe371]

No. Committing a sin (or not committing it) has nothing to do with human nature. Sure, once is exceptional if they did not sin at all, but that doesn’t change their nature.

St. John the Baptist was also sanctified in the womb, he is also believed to not have committed any sin in his life.

St. Nicholas of Myra was said to have started a life of fasting and prayer from infancy.

You admit that Mary, a human, never sinned - right? In other words, an orthodox teaching…Does the Orthodox church make the same claim about John the baptist?

St. Nicholas of Myra was a sinner like me…

 

[Monergistic]

If you could proffer a verse from Scripture that supports this view, that would be helpful.

Otherwise, what you are saying is a man-made tradition–something you heard a man say, who heard another man say, who heard another man say it…but no one ever read the above in a single page of the Bible.

Or, you just thought of it yourself, and no one has ever taught it in the history of Christendom.

There are men who say things, there are women who say things. It happens, people saying things is part of the human condition. Don’t scoff if it’s only on account of somebody saying something. All that means is you are a woman who’s saying something, and that something is indiscriminate scoffing of no value for no reason.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You admit that Mary, a human, never sinned - right? In other words, an orthodox teaching…Does the Orthodox church make the same claim about John the baptist?

St. Nicholas of Myra was a sinner like me…

You are missing the point here. The point of Original Sin is that it is the effect of the Fall. To exempt one from the effect of the fall would have affected the entire soteriology of the Christian faith. Again, for the Nth time, if God can exempt Mary from the Fall, why not the rest of us? Why does He have to become man in the first place?

Also, Mary not being subjected to the fall makes her unique. Even if Adam and Eve were created perfect, they fell. There would be something inherently different in Mary’s nature that is different from every one of us. And if Mary does not have Original Sin, what did Christ’s incarnation actually redeem if he took pre-fall flesh?

 

[joe371]

You are missing the point here. The point of Original Sin is that it is the effect of the Fall. To exempt one from the effect of the fall would have affected the entire soteriology of the Christian faith. Again, for the Nth time, if God can exempt Mary from the Fall, why not the rest of us? Why does He have to become man in the first place?

Also, Mary not being subjected to the fall makes her unique. Even if Adam and Eve were created perfect, they fell. There would be something inherently different in Mary’s nature that is different from every one of us. And if Mary does not have Original Sin, what did Christ’s incarnation actually redeem if he took pre-fall flesh?

Remember, I asked yo to leave original sin out of ; that is a catholic doctrine. Because Mary, again, was to play a critical part in Jesus’ life. Pure ark of Jesus. No other human became the ark of the New Covenant e.g. Jesus. The purity of the old Ark of the Old Covenant sets the precedence for the “immaculate” purity of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant. (Rev 11:19)

The difference between Mary, me, you and everyone else is: Mary never sinned from the moment she was born to the moment when she died, as per your church; the rest of us did. That separate us from her, and from John the Baptist.

 

[Monergistic]

You are missing the point here. The point of Original Sin is that it is the effect of the Fall. To exempt one from the effect of the fall would have affected the entire soteriology of the Christian faith. Again, for the Nth time, if God can exempt Mary from the Fall, why not the rest of us? Why does He have to become man in the first place?

I think they’re confused. They think this is a rhetorical question.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Remember, I asked yo to leave original sin out of ; that is a catholic doctrine. Because Mary, again, was to play a critical part in Jesus’ life. Pure ark of Jesus. No other human became the ark of the New Covenant e.g. Jesus. The purity of the old Ark of the Old Covenant sets the precedence for the “immaculate” purity of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant. (Rev 11:19)

The difference between Mary, me, you and everyone else is: Mary never sinned from the moment she was born to the moment when she died, as per your church; the rest of us did. That separate us from her, and from John the Baptist.

There is no contention here. But you are arguing Mary’s uniqueness with the role she has played in salvation. A lot of other people had unique roles. St. John the Baptist had a unique role. Judas has a unique role. That doesn’t make them different that the rest of us. The difference that Orthodox object to about Mary is about her human nature. Trying to find any other kind of difference is arguing besides the point. I mean, c’mon, Mary’s DNA is different from everyone of us. But what does that have to do with God’s salvation for man? The fact that Mary is saved in a different way from everyone else is a big deal.

 

[joe371]

There is no contention here. But you are arguing Mary’s uniqueness with the role she has played in salvation. A lot of other people had unique roles. St. John the Baptist had a unique role. Judas has a unique role. That doesn’t make them different that the rest of us. The difference that Orthodox object to about Mary is about her human nature. Trying to find any other kind of difference is arguing besides the point. I mean, c’mon, Mary’s DNA is different from everyone of us. But what does that have to do with God’s salvation for man? The fact that Mary is saved in a different way from everyone else is a big deal.

In my humble opinion being the mother of God is as unique as it can get. Giving birth to God. Wow.

Every human is a sinner. Mary was a human who never sinned. Big difference between Mary, the human, and the rest of us humans, wouldn’t you say, in terms of the issue of sin? If you say no, I will drop it but won’t understand.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I want to hear the evangelical exegesis from creation to incarnation. We’ve heard the rest, I get that. We all get that. “That” makes sense. this other story doesn’t. I think in your story God is reduced to “other” than God. And Mary, she is just kicked to the curb like an old can. You have God using a virtual condom so as not to contaminate Himself from this vial woman of sin, “no different than you and I” I believe this is the standard line?

I mean what is the difference if She is a Virgin or not? And how does tis coincide with Christs Nature per the 4th Council? The point of Her Virginity is what???

 

[aidanbradypop]

No. Committing a sin (or not committing it) has nothing to do with human nature. Sure, once is exceptional if they did not sin at all, but that doesn’t change their nature.

St. John the Baptist was also sanctified in the womb, he is also believed to not have committed any sin in his life.

St. Nicholas of Myra was said to have started a life of fasting and prayer from infancy.

How did he get the stomach like a bowl full of jelly then? Sorry lol

 

[PRmerger]

How did he get the stomach like a bowl full of jelly then? Sorry lol

spitting out my coffee in laughter

 

[PRmerger]

A priest once explained that Mary remained sinless so Satan could never say to Jesus, “I had your mother!” Even if it was for a short period of time…

Love, love, love this!

Love it when apologetics questions get answered with a pithy response!

 

[PRmerger]

There are men who say things, there are women who say things. It happens, people saying things is part of the human condition. Don’t scoff if it’s only on account of somebody saying something. All that means is you are a woman who’s saying something, and that something is indiscriminate scoffing of no value for no reason.

Fair enough.

I hope, then, that you allow Catholics this same paradigm and don’t ever ask us to support our theology with a Scripture verse.

For it appears now that you are saying that what you believe does not need to be found in the Word of God–either in Scripture or Tradition.

Kind of a weird transition you’re making, but I will go with it.