Non Catholic view of Mariology II

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nmgauss said:
Are you saying that Catholics, Mormons, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, constitute a unified voting block in regard to politics? This de-emphasis of politics among Christians is the main reason we turn to religion mainly on the Sabbath and not the rest of the week.

This is in contrast with Muslims, in which politics is a major cause and pervades their devotion every waking moment. Muhammad wanted politics to prevail over piety. That is the main thrust of the spread of Islam from its origins in Arabia.
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Very sobering!
 
SteveVH said:
PR, next time why don’t you get prepared? 😃 Seriously, I’m saving the whole thing. Thanks for putting this together. You’re amazing.
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Oh! I can’t take credit for putting the verses together, Steve! They are from John Salza’s website (which I did cite at the end of my post).

Wish I were indeed truly that prepared!
 
Thinkingaloud said:
Most of these verses assume the Ark is a type of Mary.,
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Well, yes. That is why the Scriptures reflect the Faith, given once for all, to the Apostles.

We do not do what Protestants do, which is use the Scriptures to extract doctrine. That is exactly backwards.
however I made a post before with objections to why I am not convinced. I was interested to see in a list of the early church fathers here., the oldest quote from Hippolytus interpreted the ark as a type of Christ.
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What about all the others?

And please note that if you object to a 300 year gap, then you ought to also object to a 400 year gap regarding the canon of the NT, as well as a 400 year gap regarding the Trinity.
 
KathleenGee said:
PR, on another post regarding the IC, I commented on the use of the oil bottled emptied, and would the Heavenly Father allow His Son to be conceived and carried in such a soiled womb.
I wish I had better computer skills to transfer it to that thread.

Catholics understand Scripture through the heart of the Church through Tradition that is the understanding of Christ through the actual witness of the Apostles preserved by the Holy Spirit.

Just because the Catholic Church is very big does not mean the people who profess it are some big institutional blob. Every Catholic believer has a sensitive soul to Christ and His Word, be it the pope and bishops, down to believers in the pew.

Our understanding is communal, not fragmented and individual. The true reflections of Sacred Scripture always lead us to Christ more fully and to our fellow believer and neighbor in communion, not disunity and dissension. That is ego and defiance in refusing the authority Christ gave to the Apostles from the very beginning.

Likewise because we follow the apostolic teachings doesn’t mean we have a monopoly on holiness. The world is very quick to point out scandals and failings in the Church. But nevertheless, as I always state, Christ did not pass out Bibles to the Apostles. Instead He taught, healed, corrected, and died for us.

Our faith is more centered on Jesus Christ Himself Who is the only Holy One. We have nothing of ourselves.

The self-will and its lack of faith has done the greatest damage to Christian fraternity.

If you reduce Christ down to book form, then you have lost out on His authority, His understanding of the Word, and the sacraments, the Word Made Flesh. Written text is most susceptible to error. Reading something and then facing someone who is teaching you the same material is different, this Oral Tradition. if you have a question, the teacher can immediately correct and guide you into the true form.
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The Catholic faith as the tradition of faith is passed down through the apostles through their bishops and believers through the transmission of faith through the Holy Spirit.

This transmission of faith through the Holy Spirit is the teaching magesterium of faith.

You go back to ancient liturgies. Observers of Christian worship saw them pass bread and at the end make vows never to lie, steal, or commit adultery. Today we witness in our liturgies the remembrance of those who were meek, not public rabble rousers, who were martyred for their faith in the first 300 years of Christianity. We have saints who are recalled at Mass, we receiving a teaching about how they lived Christianity in the context of their times.

Catholicism is all about context, context, context, as one local writer wrote in our Catholic paper.

In the witness of their lives, there were saints who wanted to totally offer and consecrate their lives to Christ, and some of them were martyred rather than be married.

They did not divorce, they upheld the sanctity of human life, they did not contracept.

The Apostles Creed was recited.

Actually, by 100 AD, Christianity – through the work of many, not individuals – discerned through the Holy Spirit as Church, which books of the Bible were deemed worthy for public revelation. There was hesitation later cleared, that the Book of St. John was truly authored by the Apostle Evangelist, and the Book of Hebrews was not approved until 200 years later.

The liturgy, the Creed, the episcopacy with the books of Scriptures were in place by 100 AD.

Wouldn’t you prefer a source that seeks the fullness of truth in Jesus Christ and not anything less and takes all the time it needs to verify truth?

I came into this national insurance company later in life for work. All my leads dried up in March of 2008 with the various financiers failing. My manager and I agreed it was unusual, but also it was a sign for me the Lord was calling me elsewhere. I do continue to have policies with this company.

The following year I got my policy holder annual report. It stated that the company was inundated with all sorts of investments out there. But what the company did was thoroughly investigate every investment, and in the end, declined to invest our money in any of them. The company was upgraded to AAAplus! It is so good to hear of human beings who are born with brains, to use them for the right purpose.

So we have this ongoing, unifying, communion-forming Church whose Books of Scripture, the form of worship desired by Christ, the episcopacy, the Creed all affirming our faith in the loving God Who wants to come to live not only among us – but through the Word and Eucharist – to come to be at home and dwell in our hearts!!

And we have this long lived out truth that human life is sacred, the family is sacred, marriage is a sacrament, abortion and contraception are evil and destroy innocent human life.

With the sacrament of marriage thrown out after the Reformation, marriage was no longer binding and permanent. This led in part to the gradual breakdown of families to then be vulnerable to the coming power of the secular world, which is most evident today.

Contraception was condemned by Christianity but was allowed by the Anglican Church as late as 1930 or so. Now the Anglican Church is seeking its reunion with Rome, and if I am correct, now has its own Anglican rite…its particular customs in saying the Mass, but still in the same content, form, spirit, and tone that we also enjoy.

Likewise, there are many Catholics now who are Catholic in name only. So you have to look at those Catholics who uphold the true faith of the Church, and then judge for yourselves.

What follows the Book of Revelations is the testimony of the Church itself, in the documented lives of the saints, the monasteries, the great humanitarian work that is still going on here today.

You can say that it is Christ’s Church now that is the response to Sacred Scripture, its believers and their witness. The Church itself is as a sacrament.
 
KathleenGee said:
The Catholic faith as the tradition of faith is passed down through the apostles through their bishops and believers through the transmission of faith through the Holy Spirit.

This transmission of faith through the Holy Spirit is the teaching magesterium of faith.

You go back to ancient liturgies. Observers of Christian worship saw them pass bread and at the end make vows never to lie, steal, or commit adultery. Today we witness in our liturgies the remembrance of those who were meek, not public rabble rousers, who were martyred for their faith in the first 300 years of Christianity. We have saints who are recalled at Mass, we receiving a teaching about how they lived Christianity in the context of their times.

Catholicism is all about context, context, context, as one local writer wrote in our Catholic paper.

In the witness of their lives, there were saints who wanted to totally offer and consecrate their lives to Christ, and some of them were martyred rather than be married.

They did not divorce, they upheld the sanctity of human life, they did not contracept.

The Apostles Creed was recited.

Actually, by 100 AD, Christianity – through the work of many, not individuals – discerned through the Holy Spirit as Church, which books of the Bible were deemed worthy for public revelation. There was hesitation later cleared, that the Book of St. John was truly authored by the Apostle Evangelist, and the Book of Hebrews was not approved until 200 years later.

The liturgy, the Creed, the episcopacy with the books of Scriptures were in place by 100 AD.

Wouldn’t you prefer a source that seeks the fullness of truth in Jesus Christ and not anything less and takes all the time it needs to verify truth?

I came into this national insurance company later in life for work. All my leads dried up in March of 2008 with the various financiers failing. My manager and I agreed it was unusual, but also it was a sign for me the Lord was calling me elsewhere. I do continue to have policies with this company.

The following year I got my policy holder annual report. It stated that the company was inundated with all sorts of investments out there. But what the company did was thoroughly investigate every investment, and in the end, declined to invest our money in any of them. The company was upgraded to AAAplus! It is so good to hear of human beings who are born with brains, to use them for the right purpose.

So we have this ongoing, unifying, communion-forming Church whose Books of Scripture, the form of worship desired by Christ, the episcopacy, the Creed all affirming our faith in the loving God Who wants to come to live not only among us – but through the Word and Eucharist – to come to be at home and dwell in our hearts!!

And we have this long lived out truth that human life is sacred, the family is sacred, marriage is a sacrament, abortion and contraception are evil and destroy innocent human life.

With the sacrament of marriage thrown out after the Reformation, marriage was no longer binding and permanent. This led in part to the gradual breakdown of families to then be vulnerable to the coming power of the secular world, which is most evident today.

Contraception was condemned by Christianity but was allowed by the Anglican Church as late as 1930 or so. Now the Anglican Church is seeking its reunion with Rome, and if I am correct, now has its own Anglican rite…its particular customs in saying the Mass, but still in the same content, form, spirit, and tone that we also enjoy.

Likewise, there are many Catholics now who are Catholic in name only. So you have to look at those Catholics who uphold the true faith of the Church, and then judge for yourselves.

What follows the Book of Revelations is the testimony of the Church itself, in the documented lives of the saints, the monasteries, the great humanitarian work that is still going on here today.

You can say that it is Christ’s Church now that is the response to Sacred Scripture, its believers and their witness. The Church itself is as a sacrament.
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Does this message have a theme? Can you abridge it so that word-challenged people like me can get the gist of what you are trying to say. Right now, I finish reading your words and come away with a jumble.
 
Yes it was too much. Was trying to get too much in before preparing my Florentine pork roast dinner.

Well, now son is home. That was too much. yes.

Well, the reaction you had was to my comment of the fragmentation of Sola Scriptura.

To put it all in a nutshell, my verbose and meandering prior post, the Church has consistently taught the same belief in Christ, the same practices, the same teachings on the sanctity of human life, the sanctity of marriage and its permanency.

Our references of Sacred Scripture, the form of worship through the liturgy, the episcopacy and priesthood, the Creed, all were set by 100 AD, and to be sustained this long and be able to incorporate so many people is the work of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Trinity is the maker and sustainer of this sacred unity.

So we can say that the Church is 1) One. 2) Holy. 3) Universal/Catholic 4) Apostolic. These are the four marks of the Church. Or another way, our Four Square Church founded on Christ Who is the life of the Church through His Word, and HIs Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

All this, including the compiling of the books of Sacred Scripture into the Bible was the work of many people…many contentious people at that.

We are all on different levels…even in a single parish. You have all sorts of people of different backgrounds, different spiritual levels and perspectives, but the Catholic faith is transcendent, reaching us no matter what.

We do not see the Holy Father or bishops or priests as independent entities of their own. Instead, they are human sacraments that bring us the Word of God and the Sacraments. St. Catherine of Siena called them the Ministers of the Blood.

Hope this clears things up.

Sorry for the confusion. You missed a great dinner. Wish you were here.
 
Thinkingaloud said:
The references are not accurate. The Acts of Andrew is a rejected apocryphal work arising later, the oldest copy of the Liturgy of St Mark comes from the 4th century and is full of anachronisms such as the Nicene creed. The liturgy of St James is no longer believed to have been written by him,. but most sources date it to the 4th century. None of these can count as 1st century sources
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The Liturgy of Saint James is considered to be the oldest surviving liturgy developed for general use in the Church. Its date of composition is still disputed with some authorities proposing an early date, perhaps ca. AD 60 ,

The Divine Liturgy of St. James of Jerusalem (1st century A.D.), celebrated once a year in Jerusalem (and a few other churches) on the feast day of St. James, brother of the Lord and first bishop of Jerusalem, to whom this Liturgy is traditionally attributed. [Wiki Pedia]

The Acts of Andrew (Acta Andreae), is the earliest testimony of the acts and miracles of the Apostle Andrew. The surviving version is alluded to in a 3rd-century work, the Coptic Manichaean Psalter, providing a terminus ante quem, according to its editors, M.R. James (1924)[1] and Jean-Marc Prieur in The Anchor Bible Dictionary (vol. 1, p. 246), but it shows several signs of a mid-2nd century origin. [Wiki Pedia]

Liturgy of St Mark-the Strasbourg papyrus, written in the 4th or 5th century, includes the first part of the preface, with the paraphrase of Malachi 1:11 followed by some short intercessions and it ends with a doxology.

Scholars disagree on whether this prayer in the 3rd century was in itself a complete anaphora.

The writings and liturgies pre-date your suggest period. Which is consistent with a state of mind which indeed existed. Such as some authorities proposing an early date, perhaps ca. AD 60 for James.

My point being that as you attempt to suggest everything appeared post 300-AD, there’s absolutely no reason to believe this. There was an increase in writing post 300, and for good reason.

Prayer Sub tuum

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum

Gospel of James, aspects are still used in Tradition… St Irenaeus and Ignatius of Antioch both wrote prior to 200, 189 and 107 respectfully.

amsterdamapparitions.com/mary-co-redemptrix-in-the-light-of-patristics/

The term the new Eve was coined by Irenaeus

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_James

However, you are entitled to believe everything started when-ever you wish, such as 300-400-AD. But it won’t change the state of mind which always existed, sorry.
 
Thinkingaloud said:
There is a difference though of being holy and never having committed a sin.
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St. Hippolytus of Rome ca. 170-235

And, moreover, the ark made of imperishable wood was the Saviour Himself. For by this was signified the imperishable and incorruptible tabernacle of (the Lord) Himself, which gendered no corruption of sin. For the sinner, indeed, makes this confession: “My wounds stank, and were corrupt, because of my foolishness.” But the Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin and the Holy Ghost inwardly, and outwardly of the word of God, like an ark overlaid with purest gold. (Exegetical Fragments On Psalm 22 or 23)

While earlier you propose the Ark is Jesus, I have no issue there. However, you miss the connection to “sinless”.

You are talking the Mother of God. That alone ought to tell you Her nature stands out from “all” creatures. There is only one. A pretty significant supernatural event??

Mary was saved from sin

Mary was a human being conceived in the natural way after the fall, While She indeed is special She was not a special creature impervious to the effects of the fall. In the sequence of Divine providence which we discern, Mary was to receive the same consequence as all, Divine intervention/providence was in motion in the predestined plan of Salvation for mankind.

The Second Person Trinity, is beyond time restriction, the same Grace which applied at the Cross for us after the finished work, is applied to Mary prior, a Grace which protected Her from the transmitted iniquity of Adam. This then resulting in Her Immaculate Conception in the infinite plan of Salvation through Christ and redemption which is most fitting.

Luke 1:46 “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord"

Luke 1:47 “and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,”

Luke 1:48 " from now on will all ages call me blessed.’

Mary was saved from sin by this special act of God, which is why she is able to rejoice in God her “Savior”.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Luke 1:46 “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord"

Luke 1:47 “and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,”

Luke 1:48 " from now on will all ages call me blessed.’

Mary was saved from sin by this special act of God, which is why she is able to rejoice in God her “Savior”.
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Luke 1:47 is often a verse I hear from Protestants to try and disprove the IC. If God saved Mary from sin before her birth then Christ would still be her Savior. We all need a Savior. I am sure all will agree on that point. Whether it is before our birth, like Mary, or after we are born we still need a Savior. This verse does not dispute the IC but actually makes it stronger in my eyes.
 
Where are named saints in Protestantism??

Weren’t the apostles exhorted to ‘write it down!’.

Thanks for your references of ancient liturgies, Gary. I attended a Maronite church. That Sunday the visiting priest said we were going to use the liturgy of St. James…I was amazed!!

In the Old Testament, man did not dictate how he wanted to worship God. There was a figure, however, who attempted, and it was Cain who did not share with the Lord his first fruits of his work. Abel did and was slain by Cain.

In Exodus, the Lord dictated to Moses how He wished to be worship. The Lord dictated the Ark of the Covenant, and how only certain consecrated souls were allowed to touch it, or if anyone else did, he would drop dead at the site.

The Lord dictated the building of the temple, the inner sanctuary, the two cherubs – statues facing the Mercy Seat where God remained among His people. The Lord dictated the priesthood and what they would wear and the designs on the cloth. The Lord was most precise in defining how He wished to be worshipped. He was preparing His people, through the sacrifice of lambs and goats as atonement for sin, for His Son to be the sacrifice to replace their rituals.

There is a statement in Scripture about the Lord not wanting their sacrifices and rituals, but sincere faith in their heart. Some Protestants use that to demonstrate the Lord did not want sacrifices or rituals. IF He did, such practices would have ceased then. But they continued up to the time of Our Lord.

The Lord Jesus dictated to the Apostles the new liturgy, the new form of worship, – The Memorial, Be’Kaa. The Jews are very much in using memorials to keep their race and culture intact and passed on. Jesus said, ‘Do this in memory of Me’.

The breaking of bread is also an old Jewish custom done before meals to give God thanks for food and for His blessings of life.

Recall that Christ’s first miracle…through Mary’s request…was at the wedding banquet.

And the family meal where father, mother, sons and daughters came together, broke bread.

Jesus the Son of God became the Lamb of God to be offered as sacrifice for the atonement of sin through the Daily Sacrifice of the Mass. Ours is now a banquet. Every hour of the day all over the world, Mass is being said for sins committed in those hours. The Mass is offered up not only for Catholics, but for every human being.

The Mass is the greatest power of God and His goodness on earth.

And it was Our Lord’s Body and Blood that came from Mary.
 
KathleenGee said:
Where are named saints in Protestantism??

Weren’t the apostles exhorted to ‘write it down!’.

Thanks for your references of ancient liturgies, Gary. I attended a Maronite church. That Sunday the visiting priest said we were going to use the liturgy of St. James…I was amazed!!

In the Old Testament, man did not dictate how he wanted to worship God. There was a figure, however, who attempted, and it was Cain who did not share with the Lord his first fruits of his work. Abel did and was slain by Cain.

In Exodus, the Lord dictated to Moses how He wished to be worship. The Lord dictated the Ark of the Covenant, and how only certain consecrated souls were allowed to touch it, or if anyone else did, he would drop dead at the site.

The Lord dictated the building of the temple, the inner sanctuary, the two cherubs – statues facing the Mercy Seat where God remained among His people. The Lord dictated the priesthood and what they would wear and the designs on the cloth. The Lord was most precise in defining how He wished to be worshipped. He was preparing His people, through the sacrifice of lambs and goats as atonement for sin, for His Son to be the sacrifice to replace their rituals.

There is a statement in Scripture about the Lord not wanting their sacrifices and rituals, but sincere faith in their heart. Some Protestants use that to demonstrate the Lord did not want sacrifices or rituals. IF He did, such practices would have ceased then. But they continued up to the time of Our Lord.

The Lord Jesus dictated to the Apostles the new liturgy, the new form of worship, – The Memorial, Be’Kaa. The Jews are very much in using memorials to keep their race and culture intact and passed on. Jesus said, ‘Do this in memory of Me’.

The breaking of bread is also an old Jewish custom done before meals to give God thanks for food and for His blessings of life.

Recall that Christ’s first miracle…through Mary’s request…was at the wedding banquet.

And the family meal where father, mother, sons and daughters came together, broke bread.

Jesus the Son of God became the Lamb of God to be offered as sacrifice for the atonement of sin through the Daily Sacrifice of the Mass. Ours is now a banquet. Every hour of the day all over the world, Mass is being said for sins committed in those hours. The Mass is offered up not only for Catholics, but for every human being.

The Mass is the greatest power of God and His goodness on earth.

And it was Our Lord’s Body and Blood that came from Mary.
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👍
 
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