Non Catholic view of Mariology II

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ConstantineTG said:
But Original Sin is the whole reason why we are fallen in the first place, why we need salvation in the first place. If one person never had original sin at any point in their existence, why do they need salvation at all?
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For the same reason the person (Mary) needs salvation when she is made sinless at the Annunciation (or whatever time the Orthodox says it happened.)

What would you say when an atheist asks you: why did Mary need to be saved if she was sinless?
 
GaryTaylor said:
Then how do you justify this as opposed to Mary, specifically, “she doesn’t share any nature with us,” So too then this applies to John the Baptist.
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🍿

What say you, CTG, in response?

How is it that you believe the John the Baptist’s salvation from sin in the womb does not “constitute a break in humanity” but you believe that Mary’s salvation from sin in the womb does?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Anyone, from the Church Fathers to people today, who may have the opinion that she committed a minor sin or two, are free to think that way as long as it is not against the overall Orthodox belief on the role of the Theotokos in the entire Orthodox faith.

THAT IS ORTHODOX.
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CTG this is last Weds. did we progress or regress? :confused: 😃 I thought we were on a couple sins maybe?

You just have to tell us about St John the Baptist. 😉
 
PRmerger said:
For the same reason the person (Mary) needs salvation when she is made sinless at the Annunciation (or whatever time the Orthodox says it happened.)

What would you say when an atheist asks you: why did Mary need to be saved if she was sinless?
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I would tell them what I told you the last 20 or so pages of this thread and the previous one.
 
tdgesq said:
Because the singular grace given to Mary at conception (infusion of sanctifying grace) is granted in view of Christ’s saving act, not in spite of it. That is stated explicitly in the formula of Ineffabilis Deus.
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I’ve already addressed this point. Christ has not been incarnated yet, how can someone receive something from an event that has not occurred yet?
 
dvdjs said:
The question is: are you claiming that the ones that I’ve linked to are in error or heterodox, or just not to the liking of some with other theories of the fall? Which ones fall into which category and how, and upon what authority, do you decide?
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We don’t decide upon authority, we decide on truth. Truth is authoritative by itself.

If error has occurred, then it has to be corrected.

Besides, how can I judge? I can only see snippets you provided which seemingly is pretty conveniently on your side. But I neither would go through the effort to read the entire thing just to prove it to you. I know what Orthodoxy teaches. I’m pretty sure these people who use “Original Sin” as a term would mean the same thing I mean, and not what the Roman Catholic Church means when they use the term.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I would tell them what I told you the last 20 or so pages of this thread and the previous one.
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That she was saved from sin before the atoning death of Christ?

Then why in the world do you have a problem with her being saved from sin at the moment of her conception, just like John the Baptist was, in your theology? :confused:
 
adrift said:
Because God is outside of time.
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Such concept only exists in modern thought and is found nowhere in Scripture both Old and New Testament, as well as the teachings of the Church Fathers. To introduce modern theory based on science fiction fantasy into our faith is ridiculous.
 
PRmerger said:
That she was saved from sin before the atoning death of Christ?

Then why in the world do you have a problem with her being saved from sin at the moment of her conception, just like John the Baptist was, in your theology? :confused:
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We’re just going around in circles. Obviously you either just completely reject what I am saying, or intentionally putting words into my mouth. I’ve said what I said to share that the Orthodox believe in. I have nothing more to say. We’re done.
 
ConstantineTG said:
We’re just going around in circles. Obviously you either just completely reject what I am saying, or intentionally putting words into my mouth. I’ve said what I said to share that the Orthodox believe in. I have nothing more to say. We’re done.
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I think you are still confused about your theology and exactly what you believe.

Just trying to get you to see where you are being inconsistent.

And where you have departed from the Orthodox teachings, which are consonant with Catholicism.
 
dvdjs said:
The question is: are you claiming that the ones that I’ve linked to are in error or heterodox, or just not to the liking of some with other theories of the fall? Which ones fall into which category and how, and upon what authority, do you decide?
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Is it true that the doctrine of Original Sin implies that one must seek knowledge only through God? That unless God gives permission, seeking knowledge is a sin?
 
PRmerger said:
I think you are still confused about your theology and exactly what you believe.

Just trying to get you to see where you are being inconsistent.

And where you have departed from the Orthodox teachings, which are consonant with Catholicism.
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From your replies to me, you are the one who is inconsistent. Because I’ve explained the same thing so many different ways and then you come back saying I said something I never said. So you either are intentionally trying to steer the conversation so that you can pull out a win, or you’re just being bull headed.

In either case, like I said, I’m not here to convert you. I’m here to present our side. So either you just really don’t grasp it, or you just really reject it and interpret it in some different way, I don’t care. I’ve already aired our side of the conversation.
 
Not much is mentioned about Saint Mary in the Holy Bible, because after all it is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Even Joseph is not mentioned allot. I believe that God wanted it that way so that salvation is through Christ only, so that even if Christians don’t believe in Mary they are saved by the blood of Jesus, because after all Saint Mary isn’t the anointed savoir.
As far as God’s salvation is concerned Saint Mary has no place and I as a Christian believe it should be kept that way so that the focus is solely kept on Jesus Christ.

So we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
 
ChristAgenda said:
Not much is mentioned about Saint Mary in the Holy Bible, because after all it is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Even Joseph is not mentioned allot. I believe that God wanted it that way so that salvation is through Christ only, so that even if Christians don’t believe in Mary they are saved by the blood of Jesus, because after all Saint Mary isn’t the anointed savoir.
As far as God’s salvation is concerned Saint Mary has no place and I as a Christian believe it should be kept that way so that the focus is solely kept on Jesus Christ.

So we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
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How is Mary a Saint to you?

MJ
 
ConstantineTG said:
Again the problem here is that you are seeing being cleansed form sin as being saved. It doesn’t matter when she was cleansed from all sin, the problem with OS is that it is the post-fall condition of man. If Mary doesn’t have OS, she doesn’t share any nature with us, thus Christ doesn’t share any nature with us, thus his incarnation has no point at all. Also that Mary was already saved pre-fall.

We believe St. John the Baptist to be sanctified in the womb.

Baptism isn’t only for the remission of sins, it is also joining ourselves to Christ’s death so that like Christ we may be raised up. Every baptism in the Orthodox Church we sing the Baptismal Troparion:

As many as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. Alleluia!

Again, in Orthodoxy, sin isn’t only committed offences, it is death as well. We are not reversed into a pre-fall state, but rather because we are headed to our graves we are united into Christ by putting on Christ, so that by His grace we will trample down our death by our own death like He did. That is why in the Creed the Baptism immediately precedes the profession on the belief on the resurrection, they are connected.
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You believe in the following - right?

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

During a baby’s or child’s baptism (both free of actual sin) what sin is being remitted by God?
 
MartinJordan said:
How is Mary a Saint to u?

MJ
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Because the Grace of God came upon her and that grace is Christ.
That leads me to another question why are church denominations always referring to passed away saints, is there no living Saints today we can refer to that have been touched by the grace of God.
 
MartinJordan said:
How is Mary a Saint to you?
Not much is mentioned about Saint Mary in the Holy Bible, because after all it is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Even Joseph is not mentioned allot. I believe that God wanted it that way so that salvation is through Christ only, so that even if Christians don’t believe in Mary they are saved by the blood of Jesus, because after all Saint Mary isn’t the anointed savoir.
As far as God’s salvation is concerned Saint Mary has no place and I as a Christian believe it should be kept that way so that the focus is solely kept on Jesus Christ.

So we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
MJ
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I think you are right and I believe that Mary would have wanted it this way. Mary, as we all do, understood that she, the mother of the Lord, was the creature as opposed to the creator and Savior. Her soul magnifies the Lord; it does not replace the Lord.

However, to insist that Jesus’ mother has no place as a prayer warrior when it comes to the salvation of sins, well I wonder what Jesus would have to say about those rather harsh words about His mother? :eek:
 
ChristAgenda said:
Because the Grace of God came upon her and that grace is Christ.
That leads me to another question why are church denominations always referring to passed away saints, is there no living Saints today we can refer to that have been touched by the grace of God.
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Perhaps, to become a saint is to become fully conformed to God’s divine Will. I know of no one like that walking the earth. Only one person long ago…
 
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