Non-Catholics, a question

[DLClark]

The true church is not found in any denomination. The true church is made up those who have accept Christ by faith. They many be found in any denomination and in a any church. Church membership does not equal salvation. The church can not save because it is in need of salvation itself. Salvation is found ONLY through faith in Christ and in Him alone as ones Savior.

 

[Janet1983]

The true church is not found in any denomination. The true church is made up those who have accept Christ by faith. They many be found in any denomination and in a any church. Church membership does not equal salvation. The church can not save because it is in need of salvation itself. Salvation is found ONLY through faith in Christ and in Him alone as ones Savior.

Amen to that!

 

[Stephen168]

I mean visable viable proof!

like the Table of Contents to the New Testament?

 

[DLClark]

I’ll repost my repost… just for you.
Read. (including the end)… That helps a lot… I did write about this passage…

Did you know that James is not talking about how to be saved but how to live the Christian life? He is writting to Christians not unsaved people. James never says to work for your salvation.

In these verses you will find that faith is all that is need to be saved. 1 Cor. 15:1-4; John 3:16-18; John 5:25; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

 

[Mickey]

In these verses you will find that faith is all that is need to be saved.

Sigh. I’ll say it again. Faith and works cannot be separated.

 

[SSTeacher]

DLClark;5521114:

In these verses you will find that faith is all that is need to be saved.

Sigh. I’ll say it again. Faith and works cannot be separated.

Hi Mickey,

I agree. Faith and works cannot be separated.

In these verses you will find that faith is all that is need to be saved. 1 Cor. 15:1-4; John 3:16-18; John 5:25; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

I followed up but I didn’t find your assertion endorsed within the passages and verses you selected for consideration, scil:

1 Corinthians 15:1–4:
Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

In my opinion, this passage doesn’t suggest that faith without works is all that is needed for salvation. Rather, it suggests that salvation comes to us if we hold firmly to the Gospel. That Gospel message includes the stern warning given by our Savior in Matthew 25:31–46.

John 3:16–18:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

In my opinion, this passage doesn’t suggest that faith without works is all that is needed for salvation. Rather, it suggests that whoever believes in the Son of God shall have eternal life. But ideas do have consequences and so sitting in an armchair doesn’t qualify as real belief.

John 5:25:
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

In my opinion, this verse doesn’t suggest that faith without works is all that is needed for salvation. Rather, it suggests that those who hear will live. Faith isn’t mentioned and although I tried to alight upon a thought pattern that might eventually associate itself with your original assertion the best I was able to achieve was to sense a somewhat vague and tenuous inference that might with a great deal of effort be loosely linked to a preconceived idea.

Acts 16:31:
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.”

In my opinion, this verse doesn’t suggest that faith without works is all that is needed for salvation. Rather, it suggests that whoever believes in the Lord Jesus will be saved. But to conclude that it says inertia is the same thing as belief seems to me to be a little unreasonable.

Romans 5:1:
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

In my opinion, this verse doesn’t suggest that faith without works is all that is needed for salvation. Rather, it suggests that since we have been justified through faith, we have peace through our Lord Jesus Christ. The post–Reformation Western notion particularly prevalent amongst American Evangelicals that faith constitutes a magic moment during an altar call is a curious one and I daresay Saint Paul didn’t mention it because it never occurred to him that faith without works was possible even within the realm of wild and wayward speculation.

Ephesians 2:8–9:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.

In my opinion, this passage doesn’t suggest that faith without works is all that is needed for salvation. Rather, it suggests that we have been saved by grace, through faith and therefore we cannot boast about the works that are naturally attendant to faith.

Titus 3:5:
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

In my opinion, this verse doesn’t suggest that faith without works is all that is needed for salvation. Rather, it suggests salvation is because of the mercy of God and nothing more.

In these verses you will find that faith is all that is need to be saved. 1 Cor. 15:1-4; John 3:16-18; John 5:25; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

I have the feeling that you might possibly be mistaken.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[Mickey]

I have the feeling that you might possibly be mistaken.

Excellent post, Mick! :yup:

 

[Angel7]

Those who have questions on catholicism should seek the asnwers themselves, look through the CCC catechism.
Although some people are unpolite and uncharitable, every person is not perfect, don’t let an act of anger, or uncharity by 1 catholic skew the way to truth.
The Catholic Church has 3 pillars, (the 3-legged stool, as it is somtimes called)

1. The Magestarium (The Pope, Cardinals, which interpret scripture, and apply to The Catholic church
2. Church Tradition (Rather than “Bible-only” christians, Church tradition keeps certain prayers such as the Rosary, etc… making the CC broader in perspective)
3. Scripture (The Bible and the Teachings of Jesus)

the CC has all 3 pillars, compare that towards other christian branches.

the Eastern Orthodoxy has 2.

2.Church Tradition(They keep the Apostalic Succesion, so they CAN apply all the sacrements, however by denying the pope and magesterium, they limit their capabilities)
3. Scripture(They also keep the Bible)

so the East, has 2 of the 3 Pillars, atleast it can balance itself

Protestant Denominations only have 1 Pillar

1. Scripture (they do not have Apostalic succession, no bishops, etc… that means 5 out of 7 sacrements are invalid as a protestant, for they need Apostalic Succession. They only have Baptism, and Marriage. So it is very hard to survive on one Pillar, and to stay Spiritually afloat. Which is why The Protestant branch splintered into over 2,000 denominations. No stable Foundation)

---

THUS, The Catholic Church has a Firm Foundation.
Orthodox Church is mostly on Solid Ground with 2 of 3 pillars.
The Protestant groups, have to balance on 1 of 3 pillars.

I hope I helped in some way.

 

[Angel7]

Martin Luther, who started the Reformation, (story goes) had a friend (I forgot the name, sorry)
He had to make a decision between the Protestant reform, and the Catholic Church.
He concluded, as a Protestant, it is Easy to Live, but as a Catholic It is easier to die.
That is true.
Occording to protestant “Belief” of once saved always saved, that would mean you could sin, but you would still be saved, it is easy to live with no worry. Untill your on your death bed, and you wonder, and worry, where you will be.
As Catholic, it is easier to die, on your death bed, after recieving Last rites, with Mary, Jesus, Your Gaurdian Angel, and your family at your death bed, it easier to rest in peace, and be assured, that G-d will take care of you.

only trying to help.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5521684:

I have the feeling that you might possibly be mistaken.

Excellent post, Mick! :yup:

Thanks, Mickey.

I applaud Catholics that defend their faith with vigor and decline to endorse Catholics who treat Non–Catholics with angry disrespect. However, on this issue, it does seem to me that many Catholics do not fully appreciate the genuineness of the Evangelical position.

The Evangelical perspective to which I was introduced when I first embraced Evangelical Christianity was that Evangelical Christianity was completely different from religion of any kind. Religion, so I learned, involves doing things for God whereas Evangelical Christianity is the celebration of what God has done for us (humankind). From this premise flows the idea that salvation necessarily must be assured once one believes because it is God and God alone who does the saving and God cannot fail. God gives the individual the gift of faith and the individual unreservedly accepts that divine gift and as a result then finds it natural to trust that God will do what He says He will do. No apologetics are necessary. All that is required is childlike faith i.e. trust in God. That manifestation of childlike faith is the evidence that the gift of God has been given and received. It makes perfect sense within the given parameters. The gift of God is not the dead faith Saint James discusses, which is nothing more than lip service – rather the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The gift of God is saving faith or justifying faith i.e. a vibrant living faith that wells up and bursts out of a person in acts of agape love. And, according to the Bible, love never fails.

What was attractive to me – and, indeed, I’d imagine to every Evangelical – is the notion that “there is no hell in my future.” My Evangelical mindset was that hell was for unbelievers and that didn’t include me. Hell was for those people who didn’t accept the free gift of salvation but that wasn’t me because I’d accepted it. Therefore the existence or non–existence of hell was a question I no longer needed to concern myself with because I was saved. During my time inside Evangelical Christendom I encountered a number of former Catholics that had renounced their Catholic faith in favor of Evangelicalism and without exception they all declared that the assurance of salvation implicit to the Evangelical perspective on salvation was the most compelling reason for becoming an Evangelical.

So I would submit that the ancient faith understanding of salvation probably constitutes an enormous hurdle for any and every Evangelical because acceptance of it entails revising one’s idea not only of how God saves but also of who God is. It caused me more difficulty than any other single issue because it directly impacted my prayer life. This goes to the heart of the matter and I think if the more gentle Catholics could perceive that reality they’d be much more circumspect in their posts. Immature and thoughtless comments such as, “they believe in OSAS so they can sin as much as they want to,” are as feeble as they are hurtful.

Fraternally,
Mick

 

[PJM]

=DLClark-Did you know that James is not talking about how to be saved but how to live the Christian life? He is writting to Christians not unsaved people. James never says to work for your salvation.

***Really? you’re personal interpetiation is astounding.

James 2: 14 “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? [FYI James is saying NO!] *If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. … Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, …called the friend of God.You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. … For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”/U]

In these verses you will find that faith is all that is need to be saved. 1 Cor. 15:1-4; John 3:16-18; John 5:25; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Phil. 2:12 “12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

***Heb. 6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work ***and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”

This debate denies the Divine Nature and defies logic. Obedience to the Commandments, Love of Neighbor, the Beaitudes are all WORKS. And yet time and time again we state that NOBODY can “buy there way into heaven” ONLY through WORKS. Both Faith and Works are essential to get to heaven!

Love and prayers**

 

[Mickey]

So I would submit that the ancient faith understanding of salvation probably constitutes an enormous hurdle for any and every Evangelical because acceptance of it entails revising one’s idea not only of how God saves but also of who God is. It caused me more difficulty than any other single issue because it directly impacted my prayer life. This goes to the heart of the matter and I think if the more gentle Catholics could perceive that reality they’d be much more circumspect in their posts. Immature and thoughtless comments such as, “they believe in OSAS so they can sin as much as they want to,” are as feeble as they are hurtful.

Another excellent post Mick!

Because of your past, you have a unique perspective on the evangelical mindset. Your short post enabled me to grasp a better understanding of our evangelical brothers and sisters. Thank you. Assurance of salvation is an interesting topic.

I have never heard a good evangelical explanation for St Paul’s exhortation to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.

How did you deal with that as an evangelical?

 

[Tomster]

Sigh. I’ll say it again. Faith and works cannot be separated.

Right you are! It seems our Protestants friends are blinded by the light.

 

[Tomster]

Hi Janet Tomster sent me a private message for you and i saying that he agrees with us that salvation is by faith alone and that works is a by product of our faith. I think he is becoming a protestant lol

Never said such a thing. Faith and works are necessary for salvation.

 

[Angel7]

The Magesterium is guided by the Holy Spirit, so it does not fall into “Doctrinal” error.
It was on Peter (the rock) that the Church was built upon. What is anyone else doing outside of that Church, established by Christ, of which Peter would lead on Earth?
The successors of Peter (the Popes) still lead the Original Church established by Christ.
People might not like the Truth of the Catholic Church, and might break away, or they might run off and do their own thing. But the Truth (Which is Christ) has not changed, the Body of Christ has been here for abotu 2000 years, and it has not Given way to Doctrinal Error, or lies. It Upholds the truth that has always been.

 

[Tomster]

Did you know that James is not talking about how to be saved but how to live the Christian life? He is writting to Christians not unsaved people. James never says to work for your salvation.

In these verses you will find that faith is all that is need to be saved. 1 Cor. 15:1-4; John 3:16-18; John 5:25; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

Please. Do you know that faith without woks is dead? Did you know that St. Paul said that we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling?

As I mentioned in an earlier post to two other people, which went right over their heads, and which also applies to you, we Catholics are witnessing again the unfortunate tendency of Protestants to interpret Scripture’s use of faith to be faith alone, yet Scripture never uses such terminology; rather, it invariably couples faith with works in the realm of grace for the purpose of justification.

Sorry D.L. You’re wrong again.

 

[Janet1983]

The Magesterium is guided by the Holy Spirit, so it does not fall into “Doctrinal” error.

That is more than just debatable… That assumption is proven by what? They say that they are infallible? Well anybody could say that, but that does not mean it is true.

 

[Angel7]

That is more than just debatable… That assumption is proven by what? They say that they are infallible? Well anybody could say that, but that does not mean it is true.

…yes??

Has the Catholic Church ever been on wrong on any “Doctrinal” Issue? and Doctrine Only?
They may have not believed the sun was at the center as proposed by Galileo at the Beginning. However, that is not Doctrinal issue, that is Scientific matter. So issues such as that would not count.
Only those of Doctrine.

 

[Tomster]

That is more than just debatable… That assumption is proven by what? They say that they are infallible? Well anybody could say that, but that does not mean it is true.

It’s a pity that you were undercatechised during your Catholic days. Maybe if you stuck around for a little while longer you would have learned the truth of the matter. Be that as it may.

Just a few questions for you at this time. How do you know if your Baptist pastor is giving you the correct interpretation of the Scripture verses he/she preaches to you every Sunday? He/she surely is fallible wouldn’t you agree? How do you know for sure that the instruction you are receiving is 100% accurate. (Your honest answer should be you don’t.) And, by the way, could you tell us what need you have for a fallible pastor when, according to your fallible Baptist pastor, all you need is the Bible alone? For the time being, please answer the following. How many “alones” does your pastor preach? In other words, does he/she preach the Bible Alone?, Faith alone?, Grace Alone? How does your Baptist doctrine differ from the doctrines of other “Reformed churches” and why do think there are differences in doctrine between all of the different “Reformed churches”?

 

[Tomster]

That is more than just debatable… That assumption is proven by what? They say that they are infallible? Well anybody could say that, but that does not mean it is true.

I’m sure your Baptist pastor would never claim to be infallible. Correct?