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Mickey
Guest
LOL! Webster’s won’t help you on this one. Martin Luther also tried.
We are saved by grace, though faith, and our good works are the fruit of that faith.
- Status
We are saved by grace, though faith, and our good works are the fruit of that faith.
H
Holly3278
Guest
Actually, no, we are not. Did you know that the only place in the Bible where it says “faith alone” is where it totally refutes this heresy?
(James 2:24 RSV) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
T
Tomster
Guest
Sorry Janet. Your version of justification is incorrect.
Jesus continually teaches that faithful disciples must perform good works to be forgiven of sins and grow in their relationship with God. Jesus’ teaching of the all-important beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. (See Matthew 5:2-11; Luke 6:20-38) Jesus confirms this by teaching, “Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 5:16) Refer also to Matthew 5:39-42; Matthew 19:16-22.
Jesus wants us to go beyond faith, because faith alone does not justify. This is why Jesus says "I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render an account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned (Matthew 12:36-37).
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Tomster
Guest
Most Protestants believe that Christians are justified by faith alone, and generally attribute this teaching to Paul. The obvious problem with this view is that neither Paul nor any other New Testament writer ever says we are justified by faith alone. In fact, Paul uses the word “faith” over two hundred times in the New Testament, and he never qualifies “faith” with the words “alone” or “only.” Since Paul uses uses the word “alone” more than any other New Testament writer, one would think that he would have modified the word “faith” with the qualifier “alone” at least once if he were teaching justification by faith alone. In fact, the only time the phrase “faith alone” (in Greek, pistis monon) occurs in the Scriptures is, as Holly has already mentioned, is when James says, “A man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24).
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Janet1983
Guest
Yes… as I said, I can agree to that… The works are the fruits, but we are first saved and then we bring good fruit… without salvation there are no good fruits and good fruits do not bring forth salvation, because they are not good (a bad tree can only bring forth bad fruit)LOL! Webster’s won’t help you on this one. Martin Luther also tried.
We are saved by grace, though faith, and our good works are the fruit of that faith.
J
Janet1983
Guest
I’ll repost my repost… just for you.
Read. (including the end)… That helps a lot… I did write about this passage…
J
jakasaki
Guest
In all honesty, I was doing a Yahoo Search on something and this site -CAF- was one of the first few hits on the first page.
I saw it and decided to join.
But I’ll be quite frank - I’ve never bickered or debated with the Catholics on here, not once.
I generally engage in the islam/muslim threads and try not to venture out.
Coming from a mixed family of Orthodox Christians and Catholics, I read all of the posts/threads between Orthodox and Catholic and Catholic to Orthodox.
When I do read them… this is the face I have on my screen…
I’m filled with sadness and I do not understand why we cannot all be one!
Can you image if all Christians became just “one”!!!
This stuff going back and forth from one Christian to another reminds me on a daily basis of how the islamic muslims - shia, sunni, ahmadi (et al) - go at it calling themselves out.
I wonder if God is proud of us with this chaos or if He is laughing at us.
Perhaps I’m ignorant, but I will say based on my “ignorance” that I don’t see Jews doing this between themselves - AGAIN - I just might be ignorant or I haven’t hit all of the Jewish forums on the net.
Peace to all ~
R
rev_kevin
Guest
first of all i never said you had to accept my view as the truth i dont lnow were you are getting that. the cc teaching to you is the truth and that is fine with me never said anything different. i have accepted the confession but show me were it says in th e bibleto tell a priest your sins it dont say that does it or that you have to tell anyone your sins does it Acts 10:43 he is the one all the prophets testified about saying that everyone who believes in him will their sins forgiven through his name
Mark 2:7 Who but god can forgive sin
Matthew 9: I will prove that I the son of Man have the authority on earth to forgive sin
ok whos truth all i here is the truth no one can say or tell or show me about the truth all i get is the truth
Truth-genuine, honest, sincere, actual, reliable, able to be trusted. Actual fact rather than pretense, appearance, or claim. God is th one source of truth, and Jesus is called the truth John 14:6
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The NNC forces Catholics to defend their faith by thinking our beliefs is contrary to the Word of God. It’s a lot of deceptions.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
That post have a lot errors and a lot of verses that promote the false MAN-MADE doctrine of faith alone.
James Epistles totally destroy the doctrine of faith alone. For faith without works is dead. There is a unity in both.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Sal wrote an article about the erroneous made-doctrine of faith alone.
Here is an excerpt:
**During the Protestant Reformation in the early 1500s, a familiar term regarding salvation was “sola fide,” Latin for “by faith alone.” The reformers, at that time, accused the Catholic Church of departing from the “simple purity of the Gospel” of Jesus Christ. They stated it was faith alone, without works of any kind, that brought a believer to eternal life. They defined this faith as “the confidence of man, associated with the certainty of salvation, because the merciful Father will forgive sins because of Christ’s sake.”
This view of salvation is a crucial issue because it strikes at the very heart of the Gospel message eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches that we are not saved by faith alone. The Church has taught this since 30 A.D. as part of the Divine Revelation. The truth of the Catholic Church’s teaching can be demonstrated from Sacred Scripture alone.
All who claim the title “Christian” will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church.
If we take a concordance and look up every occurrence of the word “faith,” we come up with an undeniable fact the only time the phrase “faith alone” is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.
The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God’s truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it’s certainly an attention grabber.
Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was “born again” it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by “remaining in Him” (John 15:1-11).
Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a “waiver” that exempts them from these verses.
Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.
Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was “declared righteous” before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by “believing” faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith “working in love” (Galatians 5:6). Isn’t this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by “works of law” (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He’s condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn’t justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10). A close examination of Abraham’s life revealed a man of God who did something. In Genesis 12-14 he makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God’s providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he’s “declared righteous” (Genesis 15:6). Did these works play a role in his justification? According to the Bible, yes.
The Catholic Church has never taught we “earn” our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can’t earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).
The reformer’s position cannot be reconciled with the Bible. That is why the Catholic Church has taught otherwise for over 1,960 years.
Where does our assistance come from to reach our heavenly destination? Philippians 4:13 says it all, “I can do all things in Him who strengthens me.”
(Sal Ciresi has lectured on apologetics in the diocese of Arlington, VA and has resided in Northern Virginia since his discharge from the Marine Corps in 1991.)**
Source: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FAWORKS.htm
Here is an excerpt:
**During the Protestant Reformation in the early 1500s, a familiar term regarding salvation was “sola fide,” Latin for “by faith alone.” The reformers, at that time, accused the Catholic Church of departing from the “simple purity of the Gospel” of Jesus Christ. They stated it was faith alone, without works of any kind, that brought a believer to eternal life. They defined this faith as “the confidence of man, associated with the certainty of salvation, because the merciful Father will forgive sins because of Christ’s sake.”
This view of salvation is a crucial issue because it strikes at the very heart of the Gospel message eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches that we are not saved by faith alone. The Church has taught this since 30 A.D. as part of the Divine Revelation. The truth of the Catholic Church’s teaching can be demonstrated from Sacred Scripture alone.
All who claim the title “Christian” will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church.
If we take a concordance and look up every occurrence of the word “faith,” we come up with an undeniable fact the only time the phrase “faith alone” is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.
The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God’s truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it’s certainly an attention grabber.
Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was “born again” it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by “remaining in Him” (John 15:1-11).
Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a “waiver” that exempts them from these verses.
Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.
Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was “declared righteous” before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by “believing” faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith “working in love” (Galatians 5:6). Isn’t this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by “works of law” (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He’s condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn’t justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10). A close examination of Abraham’s life revealed a man of God who did something. In Genesis 12-14 he makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God’s providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he’s “declared righteous” (Genesis 15:6). Did these works play a role in his justification? According to the Bible, yes.
The Catholic Church has never taught we “earn” our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can’t earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).
The reformer’s position cannot be reconciled with the Bible. That is why the Catholic Church has taught otherwise for over 1,960 years.
Where does our assistance come from to reach our heavenly destination? Philippians 4:13 says it all, “I can do all things in Him who strengthens me.”
(Sal Ciresi has lectured on apologetics in the diocese of Arlington, VA and has resided in Northern Virginia since his discharge from the Marine Corps in 1991.)**
Source: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FAWORKS.htm
R
rev_kevin
Guest
Acts 11:26 when he found him he brought him back to Antioch. both of them stayed here with the church for a full year teaching great numbers of people. it was there at Antioch that the believers were first called Christians2000 years—beginning with Jesus Christ—to the apostles—to the bishops and priests.
Antioch in Pisidia was a Galetian city were Paul preaached, started a church, and was persecuted. To this and mearby chruches, he weote the Bool of Galatians Acts 13 2Timothy 3:11 Antioch in Syria was a major city and early center of Christianity. Jesus’ followers were first called Christians there, and from ther the first foreign missionaries wer sent Acts 11:26, 13:1-4
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Mannyfit75
Guest
About 110 AD, in Antioch, the Bishop there by the name of St. Ignatius of Antioch (Disciple of St. John the Apostle) called Christian Church Catholic.
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans:
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Janet1983
Guest
Let me do it for you too…
Read this. (including the end)… That helps a lot… I did write about this passage in James too…
P
PJM
Guest
rev kevin-No not suprised that they won’t accept my view said:Because there can only be one TRUTH on any specific issue, and Jesus mandated that on all matters of FAITH and Morals, that thee single truth would reside in the ONLY Church that He founded.
Mt. 16: 18 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."***
Please note the extensive use of “singular terms” I, rock, you, Peter, My, Church are all singular and very specific and clear.
Actually BOTH, because God’s truth is the TRUTH of HIS Catholic Church.
Sure we can, and have in Mt. 16 above. Why? Because from the time of Christ death and resurrection until about the- mid 1,600’s THEE ONLY Christian Church in existence was thee one we know today as the CC.
The term “Catholic” which means “Universal” did not apply for nearly 200 years while thee Church was in fact becoming universal. We were first called Catholic around the year 150 AD. By the year 325AD, thanks to the Emperor Constantine, who had conquered the entire known world, and through the influence of his mother who was a devout Christian / Catholic and converted her son; he forced the “entire world” to practice Catholicism.
Rev. Kevin; again look at Mt. 16 above. That is you’re God speaking! “I [God] you [Peter] My Church, bind and loose [power of Governance] keys to the kingdom” all specifically from Christ to St. Peter and extremely clear and concise mandates!
Sorry Kevin, unless you’re talking to FORMER catholic fallen away priest, I find this extremely hard to believe. I too know priest who claim to be catholic, but are NOT! Catholicism has requirements that many are unwilling to pay the price of admission and the continuing Do’s!
Mt. 16: “24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?”
And isn’t it interesting that that this message follows only a few verses after Christ Himself founds His ONLY Christian Church?
Love and prayers Kev
M
maplesyrp
Guest
Hi Kalt,
I’m a former Catholic. I went to Catholic School and Catechism. My whole family is very, very devoutly Catholic…except me. I began to question the Catholic faith when I started reading the scriptures myself, instead of just hearing them at mass. Forgive me for saying so, but I have come to view being born Catholic kind of like being born Jewish. It is almost more of an ethnicity than a religion. I read that Christ clearly tells us to pray only to the Father. I read that Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth and the Light. Nowhere does it say that Mary is our intercessor or that saints can hear or respond to our prayers. If we are to take the word of men over the word of God, then we can easily become confused. I have had as many different answers to my questions as there were priests answering them. The scriptures do not waver…men do. I applaud your faithfulness and your firm defense of your faith. However, having been a Catholic for many years (married in the CC and children baptized in the CC) I also know that many Catholics do not question. They are indoctrinated, if you will. I now consider myself a nondenominational christian and have never had stronger faith in my life than I do now. I ask only that you read the scriptures with an open mind and compare what you read to what you have been taught. It took me years, but my understanding of God has never been more clear than it is now.
I’m a former Catholic. I went to Catholic School and Catechism. My whole family is very, very devoutly Catholic…except me. I began to question the Catholic faith when I started reading the scriptures myself, instead of just hearing them at mass. Forgive me for saying so, but I have come to view being born Catholic kind of like being born Jewish. It is almost more of an ethnicity than a religion. I read that Christ clearly tells us to pray only to the Father. I read that Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth and the Light. Nowhere does it say that Mary is our intercessor or that saints can hear or respond to our prayers. If we are to take the word of men over the word of God, then we can easily become confused. I have had as many different answers to my questions as there were priests answering them. The scriptures do not waver…men do. I applaud your faithfulness and your firm defense of your faith. However, having been a Catholic for many years (married in the CC and children baptized in the CC) I also know that many Catholics do not question. They are indoctrinated, if you will. I now consider myself a nondenominational christian and have never had stronger faith in my life than I do now. I ask only that you read the scriptures with an open mind and compare what you read to what you have been taught. It took me years, but my understanding of God has never been more clear than it is now.
R
rev_kevin
Guest
Because there can only be one TRUTH on any specific issue, and Jesus mandated that on all matters of FAITH and Morals, that thee single truth would reside in the ONLY Church that He founded.
Don’t say the Catholic church. See below Church
Mt. 16: 18 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."***
Please note the extensive use of “singular terms” I, rock, you, Peter, My, Church are all singular and very specific and clear.
All fine but I, rock, you, Peter don’t mean catholic church It just says church not specific to what church
Church-summoned assembly, congregation. Believers who join together in a cerain location Matthew 18:17, 1Corinthians 4:17. Also means all Christians everywhere, of all ages, of all times 1Corinthians 10:32, Ephesians 1:22-23. In the Bible,Church is not a building. Church is the Christians who inhabit it Romans 16:5. New Teatament picture of the church include the bride of Christ Ephesians 5:25,27. the people of God 1 peter 2:9;-10and the body of Christ Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians12:12, Ephesians 4:16. In the NT, church members sccepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, pictured this commitment in baptism, agreed to believe in tand behave like Christ, and committed to share Christ an da ministry like His wiht others Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8.
Actually BOTH, because God’s truth is the TRUTH of HIS Catholic Church.
See above Church
Sure we can, and have in Mt. 16 above. Why? Because from the time of Christ death and resurrection until about the- mid 1,600’s THEE ONLY Christian Church in existence was thee one we know today as the CC.
See FORCED below
The term “Catholic” which means “Universal” did not apply for nearly 200 years while thee Church was in fact becoming universal. We were first called Catholic around the year 150 AD. By the year 325AD, thanks to the Emperor Constantine, who had conquered the entire known world, and through the influence of his mother who was a devout Christian / Catholic and converted her son; he forced the “entire world” to practice Catholicism.
So the Catholic church was named by a man and he “forced” the “entire world” to practice catholicism.
FORCED-compell by force, invountary, done or produced with effort, exertion, or pressure.
I notice the word “forced” so inother words your church was “forces” upon the “entire world” {no choice}. So Peter was not the founder of the Catholic church it was “forced” upon the “entire world” by the Emperor Constantine, a mear man.So the argument that the Catholic church was founded since the time of Jesus and the Apostiles 2000 years age is not true. Constantine uses Christianty for political reasons.{I did a little research on him} Thanks to Constantine for “forcing” the religion on the “entire world.” “Forcing” and that is a good thing to “force” the “entire world” even if they didn’t want to be Catholic they were “forced.” Do you like being “forced” to do what you don’t want to do, to have “no choice” to have “no say so” in your religion. Would you accept being “forced” into another religion in todays society. You know having “no choice” you can’t be Catholic anymore because you were “forced” into another religion. And you call this “good.” I believe If you would sing a different tune if you were “forced” to leave the Cahtolic faith and “forced” into another faith. And you have the gull to tell me that your “forced” Catholic faith is
the “true” faith. And you spew that it is the “true” faith founded by Peter the Apostle, man give ne a break, even he wasn’t “forced” to follow Jesus. Jesus didn’t tell him, “you better follow mt or eles” or “I’m forcing you Peter to follow me” You just blew any argument about your faith being the “true faith.” Faith is NOT FORCED on anyone.
Rev. Kevin; again look at Mt. 16 above. That is you’re God speaking! “I [God] you [Peter] My Church, bind and loose [power of Governance] keys to the kingdom” all specifically from Christ to St. Peter and extremely clear and concise mandates!
Sorry Kevin, unless you’re talking to FORMER catholic fallen away priest, I find this extremely hard to believe. I too know priest who claim to be catholic, but are NOT! Catholicism has requirements that many are unwilling to pay the price of admission and the continuing Do’s!
Fraid not they are all practicing priests but at least they accept and listen to other points of views, they may not agree but they accept and listen their views which is more than what goes on here.
Ya maybe they don’t want to be FORCED into the requirements and FORCED to pay the admission and the continuing do’s.
Mt. 16: “24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?”
And isn’t it interesting that that this message follows only a few verses after Christ Himself founds His ONLY Christian Church?
But not by FORCE.
The word FORCED is your words not mine so don’t twist it and say I said it no no no you used the word FORCED NOT ME.
Love and prayers Kev
R
rev_kevin
Guest
Read #117
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
You were not born Catholic. You were born into a Catholic family. You were born, like us all, a sinner.
Jesus didn’t say this though. He did say, “I am the Way the Truth and the* Life *…”
To which I, and every other Catholic, responds; Amen!
Then you will understand why I will not be taking your word on this.
The same could be said of any Protestant denomination.
The same could be said of any Protestant denomination.
The same could be said of any Protestant denomination.
I am glad you have had a deeper conversion. A conversion which God calls everyone to. But instead of looking back on your Catholic upbringing with distaste, why not look at it with favor? Was it the Catholic Church who first introduced you to Christ? Was it the Catholic Church who first introduced you to the Scriptures? Taught you to pray? To love the Lord? To follow the leading of the Holy Spirit?
And what “indoctrination” have you gone through to believe that those here have not done this?
Welcome to the forums Maple. I pray that you will stick around so that some of your misconceptions can be laid to rest. Here you will actually find Catholics who read their Bibles
God bless you Maple
M
Mickey
Guest
I believe St Peter founded the Church there. What is your point?
- Status