Non-Catholics, a question

[Mickey]

Them being inseparable results only out of the fact that faith brings forth good works… Works however cannot bring forth faith or salvation.
We are saved through faith, but the works are a result of it.
Someone who got to know Christ and dies the next day is saved as much as someone who got to know Christ and lived accordingly bringing forth good fruit.
I can prove my claims with Scripture… You can’t.

Faith and good works cannot be separated. And you cannot prove otherwise.

 

[Mickey]

***Friend, if we are going to use the bible to build our beliefs; we must use the entire Bible ***

Indeed.

 

[PJM]

=Janet1983;5508937]That’s called faith… Works not mentioned here… Works are not for salvation, but a result of our faith.

Friend, I’m going to give you the benefit of doubt on this one, and assume you’re not just being obstinate:shrug:

Please permit a clairification. The CC too believes that Faith is a necessary ELEMENT of one’s personal salvation. But it is only one of the things necessary; like Baptism, obedience to all of the Commandments all of the time, repentance and Confession [Jn.20;21 to 23; and 1 Jn. 5: 16-20] and good works.{Rom. 13:9].

***James 2: 14 ***“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? **So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” ** 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

**Eph. 2: ** 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments.Were this a true statement God could not be God. He can’t mandate something that is impossible! And surely you do not propose that it is up to us to decise qhich we will obey and which we CAN choose not to obey:shrug:]

Therefore, Jesus’ comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments.

As informed as you seem to be you should be aware that when speaking of “the law” Paul is speaking of the OT Jewish law orginally founded on the Commandments given to Moses by Yahweh, and then increased by the Jewish leaders to over 300 various rules and regulations added to the Commandments to give them binding force.

*Heb. 8: 8 "For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. …13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. * [See 1 Cor.11:23-26]

There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Where does this make that statement? “Keep the [all] Commandments”

Obedience to God’s Commandments are WORKS of faith, that obedience to same willsomehow make one more open to God’s free gift of salvation.

What about reading the verse right before the one you quoted?
"9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation

, though we thus speak. It explains itself…

Indeed it does and is. It is Faith AND works that God desires, NOT only Faith, NOT only works; BOTH!

Of course we are to do good… I never doubted that. I just said that we cannot save ourselves with good works. We cannot bribe God into anything.

Salvation is a gift and as a gift it is absolutely free. Works are the fruit of our faith.

***On this point we are in complete agreement. ***

"15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

In conclusion we agree that one must have Faith and do good works which are a natural fruit of Faith. Still good works are more than an option, they are a necessary proof of our Faith in action.

Love and prayers

 

[Mickey]

Whoever bears fruit with works of faith and love, he is a real disciple of Christ.
Saint John Chrysostom

 

[Tomster]

=Janet1983;5508937]That’s called faith… Works not mentioned here… Works are not for salvation, but a result of our faith.

 

[Tomster]

Right on Janet. I told you there were some here who don’t have a clue to what they are saying. Jn 3:16 says it all and it is plain to read. They try to add something that is not there.

It is, indeed, plain to read. But not the only thing to read on the topic. Blow the dust off your Bible, remove the Protestant template your preachers have placed over it and read it all in context.

 

[Mickey]

It is, indeed, plain to read. But not the only thing to read on the topic. Blow the dust off your Bible, remove the Protestant template your preachers have placed over it and read it all in context.

Right on!

 

[rev_kevin]

You keep saying that we don’t “accept” your view. Of course we don’t. We know that you have a different view, but we don’t accept that view.

We’ll leave the Confession debate for another thread, since this thread is really about non-Catholics’ distress over catholics’ vigorous defense of the faith on a Catholics site. . If you want to ask the Confession question in a new thread, I’m sure there will be plenty of lively discussion.

As far as the confession goes you asked the question in #108 not me I just responded.
I believe we already came to the conclussion that our views are different and neither will accept the others. Reread #108-124
I never said you had to accept my views as a matter of fact I said the opposite.
Show me were I said you had to accept my view.
I also said that the cc teachings of the truth is fine with me. You are bringing it up, and twisting what I said.
You say the cc is the truth then so be it for you, but not for me ok.
Were in 108-124 or anywhere in this tread I said what you claim I said.

 

[Mickey]

rev kevin;5511050I:

I also said that the cc teachings of the truth is fine with me.

rev kevin;5511050I:

You say the cc is the truth then so be it for you, but not for me ok.

You have just completely contradicted yourself.

 

[rev_kevin]

You have just completely contradicted yourself.

I went through all the listings from page 1 to the last page. I never said anything that ya’ll are claiming I said. I never said you had to accept my views, I said ya’ll won’t accept others views and that I could care less. Go back and read what I wrote because I did not contradicted myself. Your seeing what you want to see, your not reading what I wrote. Your putting your own twist on my words and not reading what I wrote.

 

[Mickey]

I went through all the listings from page 1 to the last page. I never said anything that ya’ll are claiming I said. I never said you had to accept my views, I said ya’ll won’t accept others views and that I could care less. Go back and read what I wrote because I did not contradicted myself. Your seeing what you want to see, your not reading what I wrote. Your putting your own twist on my words and not reading what I wrote.

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin. Settle down my friend. Read your post # 148 (I highlighted it in post #149).

You say, “I also said that the cc teachings of the truth is fine with me”.

And then you say, “You say the cc is the truth then so be it for you, but not for me ok”.

Get it? First you say that the Catholic Church teachings of truth is fine with you. Then, in the next sentence you say that the Catholic Church’s truth is not for you.

You contradicted yourself. Explain.

 

[rev_kevin]

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin. Settle down my friend. Read your post # 148 (I highlighted it in post #149).

You say, “I also said that the cc teachings of the truth is fine with me”.

And then you say, “You say the cc is the truth then so be it for you, but not for me ok”.

Get it? First you say that the Catholic Church teachings of truth is fine with you. Then, in the next sentence you say that the Catholic Church’s truth is not for you.

You contradicted yourself. Explain.

Ya know I’m tired. All this back and forth has only accomplished one thing for me. I am now questioning Faith, God and religion. I stayed up last night thinking about my faith or even if faith is real. How can people who claim to be followers of God act like this. I have been put down for my beliefs and my views. It not worth it. Maybe I’m weak. Is this what God is all about bickering, fighting with other faiths. How can I preach the goodness and love of God if I no longer feel it, if I no longer believe, if I question my faith how can I go on in spreading his word. I can’t because I now question him, I now question God.

 

[Mickey]

Ya know I’m tired. All this back and forth has only accomplished one thing for me. I am now questioning Faith, God and religion. I stayed up last night thinking about my faith or even if faith is real. How can people who claim to be followers of God act like this. I have been put down for my beliefs and my views. It not worth it. Maybe I’m weak. Is this what God is all about bickering, fighting with other faiths. How can I preach the goodness and love of God if I no longer feel it, if I no longer believe, if I question my faith how can I go on in spreading his word. I can’t because I now question him, I now question God.

Sometimes God is so close to us, we cannot feel Him. It seems like he has abandon us. Hang in there. God loves you more than you can imagine.

 

[PJM]

As far as the confession goes you asked the question in #108 not me I just responded.
I believe we already came to the conclussion that our views are different and neither will accept the others. Reread #108-124
I never said you had to accept my views as a matter of fact I said the opposite.
Show me were I said you had to accept my view.
I also said that the cc teachings of the truth is fine with me. You are bringing it up, and twisting what I said.
You say the cc is the truth then so be it for you, but not for me ok.
Were in 108-124 or anywhere in this tread I said what you claim I said.

***So dear friend Rev.Kevin",

So God has given you somesort of Dispensation from the rule of logic and common sense: "for any and every single issue, there can be only one truth?

Please note the Wisdom espoused in my signiture message. ***

 

[PJM]

=rev kevin;5511421]Ya know I’m tired. All this back and forth has only accomplished one thing for me. I am now questioning Faith, God and religion. I stayed up last night thinking about my faith or even if faith is real. How can people who claim to be followers of God act like this. I have been put down for my beliefs and my views. It not worth it. Maybe I’m weak. Is this what God is all about bickering, fighting with other faiths. How can I preach the goodness and love of God if I no longer feel it, if I no longer believe, if I question my faith how can I go on in spreading his word. I can’t because I now question him, I now question God.

***Dear Rev. Kevin,

Can we agree that anything and all that id Good comes at a price?

I have seen much in debate ans disagreement on you’re replies, but no one making fun of you’re views. Quite the opposite. We take your views vert seriously, BUT strongly disagree with them, as is out mandate for teaching and sharing the Catholic Faith.

Like God, we ask you to apply logic and sencerity to you’re surch for the single truth.

We have responded with various points to you’re understanding using thee Bible as our guide, in hopes that you will be able to discern the basis for our belief system as comming from and trgough God Himself.

It is not personal as in “an attack” it is personal in that salvation is, was designed by God to be a personal decision. We hope and pray to b somehoe able to lead you to it.

Like others, I pray before responding to you, that God will open you’re mind and keep our hearts open to you. Our golas to to get you to think, apply logic and accept the entire Bible.

Love and prayers friend.***

 

[brkn1]

Ya know I’m tired. All this back and forth has only accomplished one thing for me. I am now questioning Faith, God and religion. I stayed up last night thinking about my faith or even if faith is real. How can people who claim to be followers of God act like this. I have been put down for my beliefs and my views. It not worth it. Maybe I’m weak. Is this what God is all about bickering, fighting with other faiths. How can I preach the goodness and love of God if I no longer feel it, if I no longer believe, if I question my faith how can I go on in spreading his word. I can’t because I now question him, I now question God.

Faith is not something that human logic or our own mind can make real for us. True Faith is a gift of God that only the Holy Spirit can make real for us.
If you are given God’s gift of True Faith, it will often cause friction with those who do not have such faith, and they then will use the world’s methods and logic to argue against it.
I do not accept the “go along to get along” garbage that the world passes off as “charity”. Jesus did not buy into that garbage either as He proclaimed God’s Truth.

 

[PJM]

***Brother Mickey,

THANK YOU for the commitment, time and wisdom you have shared on CAF!

Well done good and faithful servant:thumbsup: ***

 

[kalt]

I don’t have a “rosey” view of Judaism - the Jewish forums I visit can’t stand the Christians - I was just saying is that the I don’t see the Jews going at among themselves.

And like I said - it could be “ignorance” on my end.

I know nothing about Orthodox Jews. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, so I have no idea of that you are saying.

O



:shrug:I know nothing about Protestans.

You are on a roll here - perhaps I didn’t quite state my post/reply properly.

Man, oh man - I have no idea what you are replying to. I’ve **BLAMED **nothing on the Catholic Church and neither did my post.

I am a Eastern Orthodox Christian, who said that my family is mixed with Catholics and EO’s and we all get along with each other. That’s it!!!

Next time, I’ll be very cautious in answering a thread stated as:

It seems your mind was already made up with answerers you wish to receive before you even submitted your inquiry.

I once responded to a JW thread and man oh man, did I get my “you know what” chewed up and spit out.

I’m done here… thanks!

~ Peace ~

So paranoid.

I didn’t say that you blame Catholics for continued division among Christians. That part of the response was headed with the title " On Catholicism and the one, big, happy Christian family-", which you quoted and then promptly threw aside,shrugging as if you couldn’t understand the title. You then went on to assume that I was talking about you. If I were talking about you, the title would have been “Your take on Catholicism and the one, big, happy Christian family”.

You are critical of Christianity, claiming that it’s not the same in Jewish circles. And yet you say that you know nothing of Protestantism and Judaism. You’re critical of one crowd, which you know nothing about, and you praise another, which you know nothing about. If I wanted to pick your post apart, that’s the comment I would have made. The comment about blaming Catholics for the division among Christians was a general comment. You brought up that topic with your complaint about Christianity and praise of Judaism, and I gave my take on the division in Christianity.

 

[kalt]

I’ve been here too long to be surprised. And I don’t think I was ever “surprised.” Nor is it “vigor” that I object to (your use of that word was misleading–if you want to understand what non-Catholics on this forum object to, then take the trouble to understand how we see things instead of using your own words that cast your fellow-Catholics in a positive light). Rather, I am disappointed (though not exactly surprised, given human nature and the nature of American popular religion in particular) that people with a rich intellectual and mystical tradition stoop to shallow, unfair arguments and repeatedly try to beat fundamentalist Protestants at their own game (and even more annoyingly, then use these tactics against non-fundamentalist Protestants who do not employ them themselves).

You guys can do a lot better. You’re selling your own glorious tradition short. Have all the vigor you want. But have vigor with rigor. Intellectual rigor that is. Care a little bit about truth (historical fact, linguistic nuance, etc.) and not just about Truth (your confidence that your Church has the Grand Story about the way things are).

Edwin

Well, you have your own words for “vigor”. But why should we believe that your negative take on us (your words) is more accurate than our own positive take?

I’m not convinced that we’re talking about the same posts anyway. What I’m talking about are the posts in which someone makes a claim about the CC and the Catholics here defend the faith. Many people who are new to the board seem genuinely surprised that Catholics have an answer to their challenges.

 

[kalt]

As far as the confession goes you asked the question in #108 not me I just responded.
I believe we already came to the conclussion that our views are different and neither will accept the others. Reread #108-124
I never said you had to accept my views as a matter of fact I said the opposite.
Show me were I said you had to accept my view.
I also said that the cc teachings of the truth is fine with me. You are bringing it up, and twisting what I said.
You say the cc is the truth then so be it for you, but not for me ok.
Were in 108-124 or anywhere in this tread I said what you claim I said.

Somewhere around post 67 you complained that, "If you say something they won’t accept your view. "

You said that you didn’t accept the fact that the CC teaches truth. In fact, you had a very difficult time trying to figure out what “truth” is. You asked us to show you what this truth is. I find it hard to believe that your claim of training to be a priest when you don’t understand that simple concept–and can’t spell altar.

If you were more truthful, you would earn the respect you’re looking for.