Non-Catholics and Communion

[holdencaulfield]

And there is the root of the problem. A Catholic (or Orthodox) believer would say that you are NOT a fully believing Christian. You believe in some elements of the faith, but reject others. Therein lies the rub.

True.

 

[ralphinal]

No, it’s Christ’s church. If you are saying that you believe that He, through the Holy Spirit guiding your Church" has limited communion to members, I’d acknowledge your point.

That is in reality what I believe. I was avoiding the “whose to say taht your church is Christ’s” argument.

 

[O.S.Luke]

It is important to note that the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and other churches, such as the Assyrian Church of the East, also practice closed Communion and believe in Transubstantiation in the same way that Catholics do.

Actually, the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in Transubstantiation the way Catholics do. To quote one Orthodox scholar:

"…in the Eucharist, man participates in the glorified humanity of Christ, which is not the ‘essence of God,’ but a humanity still consubstantial to man and available to him as food and drink…for later Byzantine theologians, the Eucharist is Christ’s transfigured, life-giving, but still human, body, en-hypostasized in the Logos and penetrated with divine ‘energies.’ Characteristically, one never finds the category of ‘essence’ (ousia) used by Byzantine theologians in a Eucharistic context. They would consider a term like ‘transubstantiation’ (metousiosis) improper to designate the Eucharistic mystery, and generally use the concept of metabole, found in the canon of John Chrysostom, or such dynamic terms as** ‘trans-elementation’ (metastoicheiosis**) or ‘re-ordination’ (metarrhythmisis). - John Mayendorff, Byzantine Theology, 1974, pp. 203-204

and

“In the same manner the majority of the Orthodox theologians used, for the idea of Transubstantiation, a Greek term drawn from the teaching of the ancient Greek Fathers; the terms used include Metousiosis, Metabole, Trope, Metapoiesis, etc, or the Slavonic Presushchestvlenie, equivalent of the Greek Metousiosis. The Slavonic word Sushchestvo corresponds not to substantia, but to ousia (essentia).” - Methodios Fouyas, Archbishop of Aksum (Greek Orthodox), in Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, 1972, p. 189

As you can see - the Orthodox are not concerned with substance, but rather, essence. Aristotelian philosophy is not well suited to mystery and the supernatural.

Interestingly, I’ve always been just as troubled about open communion as many Protestants are about closed communion. It would never have even entered my head, even if my church allowed it, to receive communion in another denomination if they did not share the belief in the Real Presence. (Communion between Orthodox and Catholics is possible in very rare circumstances, because they share the core belief in Transubstantiation).

Again, not sure that the core belief is shared. But the Orthodox “explanation” (which is really rebelling AGAINST an explanation) is evidently sufficient for the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

FYI, most (not all) Protestants do not practice “open” communion per se. Communion is open to baptized Christians who confess and proclaim repentance of sin. It’s not a “y’all come.”

It’s the Body and Blood of Christ. Period. No explanation needed. No full explanation possible - it’s the Mystery of Faith.

My own United Methodist Church believes in the Real Presence of Christ at the Eucharist. We do not pretend, however, to be able to fully explain it.

O+

 

[deacon_d]

So you are saying that there is no sin other than not accepting Christ that would proclude one from receiving?

I’m assuming you meant preclude?? (typo??)

I don’t completely understand your question but it sounds as if you are asking me, can someone commit a sin that would preclude them from receiving communion? Is that a fair statement?

Some people go against proper teachings everyday. Some break civil laws daily too. I sped today on the interstate. It does not mean the speed limit is wrong.

But speed limits change. I-95 used to be 55. Now in many places it’s 65. Others it’s as high as 70 and maybe more. Man made laws change over time. Man made laws can also get inerpreted and argued in many different ways, hence the whole legal profession. Does that make it right or wrong?? Jesus’ request to do this in remembrance of me never changes.

I agree with that.

Would you accept that it is our Church and we can require you to be a member before you receive?

I don’t see it as our Church. It’s Jesus church and we belong to it. But lets decide on what you mean by membership. To me if I’m a Christian I have a moral obligation and right to honor the Lord’s request to partake in communion no matter where I am and no matter what Christian church I’m in. If I walk in with the intent to receive and get flat out denied with full knowledge that I’m a Christian then that to me is a sin. If Jesus was standing there and witnessed that I believe he would be irate. If I walk into a Christian church as a non-Christian then what reason would I have for participating in the Lord’s supper??

My opinion is it should be left up to the individual as to whether or not they want to receive. If they partake in the Lord’s supper with improper intentions then that is between that individual and GOD. We cannot put ourselves in a position to pass judgement which is exactly what any Christian chuch would be doing if they deny someone.

Another example. We attended a Roman Catholic funeral for a close relative. My daughter is not Roman Catholic but has been baptized into Christ and receives communion at our Church. Initially my daughter was afraid to receive and then suddenly when it came time she changed her mind. I attribute that to the Holy Spirit guiding her. I initially had reservations but not because I didn’t think she should receive, I just knew that some Roman Catholic churches have a major issue with it. But then I felt it was more important to honor GOD then the Roman Catholic churches hangups. So I walked up with her and the Priest was fantastic. He initially was going to just bless her because she wasn’t holding her hands out ready to receive. Then she extended her hands out and the Priest consulted with me and asked is it Ok if she receives. I said yes Father and he gladly served her. If GOD would have had an issue with her receiving then I would have expected him to punish me personally for letting her receive. But I felt that in our hearts we had the absolute right intentions of honoring Jesus request. It also just goes to show that not all Roman Catholic churches take such a hard line.

At our church we always annouce that we practice an open communion. Meaning that if you are a follower of Christ we will be happy to serve you. But we also ask that you really examine yourself as Paul states in his letter. To consider what it really means and the fact that it cost Jesus HIS life and GOD his only SON.

PEACE

 

[deacon_d]

At first, I had a lot of trouble with this. Let me do my best to explain it to you.

“Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 11:27)

In this passage St. Paul speaks about how one must be in a state of grace and be without mortal sin. Otherwise it is considered a sin.

That’s not what Paul is saying at all. Read his exact wording. What he is saying is whoever eats or drinks in an unworthy manner. Manner meaning HOW you do it. Not what personal state you are in. The people were using it as an excuse to get drunk. The manner in which they were doing it was to intoxicate themselves. You need to understand more of what was going on in the church within Corinth at that time.

“A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.” (1 Corinthians 11:28)

St. Paul shows that one must have been to Confession with this passage, otherwise it is a sin to partake in Communion. For Protestants this would be impossible. The Church does this to keep them from sin.

“For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.” (1 Corinthians 11:29)

You are missing Paul’s point here. He’s telling us not to receive communion if we DON’T believe plain and simple. Notice his brilliant use of the word recognize. Meaning if you don’t see Jesus when you partake then don’t partake. Otherwise let judgement fall to you. We need to see the bread and wine as Jesus body and blood and not merely as drinking and eating for the sake of drinking and eating. So if someone walks into a church and partakes in the Lord’s supper thinking “hey free bread and wine.” Then let GOD’s judgement prevail on that person. This is Paul’s message. I advised my own step-son not to participate in Communion because he was unsure of his beliefs. I let him know in no uncertain terms that when we receive the bread and wine we are receiving Jesus body and blood and it is not to be taken lightly.

This is the main reason. Because Protestants don’t believe in Transubstantiation, they are sinning against the Lord when the partake in a Catholic Communion. This is the main reason the Church does not allow non-Catholics to partake. Again they are keeping Protestants from sin.

This is just flat out rubbish. How do you explain a Priest serving my Methodist Grandmother communion with full knowledge of her being Methodist?? I’ve witnessed plenty of Roman Catholic priests who will not deny anyone communion. They feel it’s between you and GOD which is what it should be.

Hope this helps.

It just further drives a wedge between Roman Catholics and Non-Roman Catholics.

 

[deacon_d]

And there is the root of the problem. A Catholic (or Orthodox) believer would say that you are NOT a fully believing Christian. You believe in some elements of the faith, but reject others. Therein lies the rub.

No, therein lies your judgemental opinion my Brother. Let’s see now what did Jesus say about judging others? Oh something like take the log out of your eye first I think.

It’s going to be very interesting when this earth ceases to exist in whatever manner GOD decides and all those who are supposed to be in Heaven are there. Are the Roman Catholics that make it going to say “hey GOD why did you let in all those Protestants?”

 

[AquinasT]

Catholics withholding Communion is not a matter of being “judgmental” - it simply expresses a theological principle that Catholics sincerely believe. Catholics believe that the word “communion” implies a unity of belief and unity within the Church under the authority of Rome which composes the Body of Christ on earth. When we use the term “Communion” to refer to the Eucharist we mean exactly what that word implies to us - you receive Communion if you are in “communion” with the whole Catholic Church.

deacon_d and other Christians do not believe that “communion” with the Body of Christ is tied to a particular denomination. That is why when these Christians partake in Communion (the Eucharist, Lord’s Supper) they open it to all Christians. They believe in a unity that crosses over denominations.

This misunderstanding stems from two different definitions of “communion” and two understandings of the role of “church.” Many non-catholics believe that it doesn’t matter what church you belong to as long as you believe in Jesus. When deacon_d insists Catholics allow open Communion he is really suggesting (whether he knows it or not) that Catholics redefine our understanding of what it means to be in Communion with the Church… in other words what the Church IS.

We are not trying to judge you deacon_d. It is simply a matter of remaining faithful to our doctrinal beliefs. If you wish to partake of catholic Communion you will first have to agree to the catholic understanding of what “communion” means - and that would mean becoming Catholic. Likewise I (as a Catholic) could never receive in your church unless I abandon my understanding of “communion” and “church” and join with you.

Thomas

 

[LDNCatholic]

“hey GOD why did you let in all those Protestants?”

I have a feeling the Protestants might be more shocked that we get in rather than the other way around.

 

[joeybaggz]

Deacon says:

“No, therein lies your judgemental opinion my Brother. Let’s see now what did Jesus say about judging others? Oh something like take the log out of your eye first I think.”

Interesting that deacon would quote this passage. Strange coming from someone who considers the teaching of a Church of well over a billion people to be “hangups”, and thoughts of another “rubbish”.

That’s rich…

 

[Namesake]

I have a feeling the Protestants might be more shocked that we get in rather than the other way around.

As a Protestant, I would not be at all shocked that Catholics get in. I am certain that Catholics will get in. I just wish Catholics were more able to accept other beliefs and not always insist that they only are correct.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I suspect Protestants and Catholics alike will feel very foolish in heaven, to see how much time we wasted on earth majoring in the minors - and thus depriving others of the knowledge of Christ.

O+

 

[Namesake]

I suspect Protestants and Catholics alike will feel very foolish in heaven, to see how much time we wasted on earth majoring in the minors - and thus depriving others of the knowledge of Christ.

O+

Amen Brother in Christ!!! I think exactly the same thing so much of the time. Amen, Amen, Amen!!!

 

[deacon_d]

Catholics withholding Communion is not a matter of being “judgmental” - it simply expresses a theological principle that Catholics sincerely believe. Catholics believe that the word “communion” implies a unity of belief and unity within the Church under the authority of Rome which composes the Body of Christ on earth. When we use the term “Communion” to refer to the Eucharist we mean exactly what that word implies to us - you receive Communion if you are in “communion” with the whole Catholic Church.

I never said it was judgemental. I said I thought it was a sin to deny. So then explain the Priests who don’t strictly enforce this. Explain Roman Catholics who come to our church and receive. Explain any Roman Catholic who attends Protestant churches and receives. Explain Protestants who attend Catholic services and receive. I’m a Roman Catholic and I receive everywhere. The difference is I look past Rome to the Lord. I don’t need to be in communion with Rome. I’m in communion with the Lord. Rome is not the authority. The Lord is.

deacon_d and other Christians do not believe that “communion” with the Body of Christ is tied to a particular denomination. That is why when these Christians partake in Communion (the Eucharist, Lord’s Supper) they open it to all Christians. They believe in a unity that crosses over denominations.

That my brother is true communion. I believe GOD is more pleased when we do that then when we deny one another.

This misunderstanding stems from two different definitions of “communion” and two understandings of the role of “church.” Many non-catholics believe that it doesn’t matter what church you belong to as long as you believe in Jesus. When deacon_d insists Catholics allow open Communion he is really suggesting (whether he knows it or not) that Catholics redefine our understanding of what it means to be in Communion with the Church… in other words what the Church IS.

I’m a Roman Catholic so I understand the definitions completely. I simply disagree as many Roman Catholics do.

We are not trying to judge you deacon_d. It is simply a matter of remaining faithful to our doctrinal beliefs. If you wish to partake of catholic Communion you will first have to agree to the catholic understanding of what “communion” means - and that would mean becoming Catholic. Likewise I (as a Catholic) could never receive in your church unless I abandon my understanding of “communion” and “church” and join with you.

I’m not seeing your statements as judgemental my Brother Again as a fellow Roman Catholic I do not hold fast to those teachings. I see them as being a sinful act. What I would ask you to explain then is why plenty of Roman Catholics receive outside the Roman Catholic church. I would say that if you polled all the Roman Catholics in the world as to whether or not they ever partook in the Lord’s Supper outside the Roman Catholic church the response would be well over 50%. I can bring you to my simple non-denominational church of 3500 people where 85% are Roman Catholic. Watch each of them partake in Communion. Additionally watch also the many visiting Roman Catholics we have each week partake in the Lord’s Supper with us. They never resist because of an allegiance to Roman Doctrine.

The main problem with your arguent is that 100% of Roman Catholics don’t hold to this doctrine. Do they all misunderstand the doctrine?? No. They simply see GOD as the higher power here and wish to adhere to the Lord’s request. Please tell me what is so wrong with that.

PEACE

Thomas

 

[deacon_d]

I suspect Protestants and Catholics alike will feel very foolish in heaven, to see how much time we wasted on earth majoring in the minors - and thus depriving others of the knowledge of Christ.

O+

:tiphat: My sentiments exactly.

 

[deacon_d]

I have a feeling the Protestants might be more shocked that we get in rather than the other way around.

Given some of the comments I’ve seen here I would agree. It’s almost as if one side hopes the other goes to hell so that they can make the proverbial statement “I TOLD YA”.

 

[AquinasT]

Whether or not certain Catholics are faithful to a teaching is not a way to judge the teachings validity!!! That’s laughable.

Catholics disobey their faith as do other Christians. All Christians sin and disobey God. By your logic that means that God Himself is wrong in telling us how to live simply because people don’t follow His commands.

You claim to be Catholic yet you say that you attend a non-denominational Church? I don’t understand. So you walked away from communion with Rome…then why shouldn’t you partake in other communions? Go ahead. You gave up communion with Rome, that’s your choice. YOU changed your beliefs! That doesn’t mean the Church ought to change its teaching.

The priests and Catholic laity you describe are either acting on their own conscience and trying to best apply their understanding of God’s will or they are giving in to social or other pressures. They are responsible for their actions. Likewise the Church is responsible for the proper distribution of the Eucharist, and this has always meant closed Communion.

You say that the Catholic position is “judgmental” - but you too are taking a “judgmental” position in saying that Catholics SIN by withholding Communion.

You sound like a spiritually confused person. I’ll pray for you.

Thomas

 

[joeybaggz]

Deacon:

Trying to figure you out - Are you a "non-denominational Roman Catholic. A new denomination completely ???

Are you a Catholic who attends a Protestant Evangelical or Pentecostal church?

Are you a Roman Catholic who attends a Roman Catholic church that considers itself Catholic although it is not recognized to be in union with Rome by your local bishop and/or the Vatican?

You see, this thread is on the Non-Catholic Religion thread. Ergo, the confusion.

I ask because you seem to be a very “Protestant” Roman Catholic. I was going to reply to a couple of your original posts because what you said seemed to be quite condescending or arrogant. Typical of the criticisms of fundamental protestants I commonly encounter. Problem was, there was something in your words that made me wait, because something wasn’t quite “right”. Now you’re having said that you’re Roman Catholic in spite of your profile indicating that your religion is 'non-denominational, causes me to understand you “logic” a little better.

Would appreciate some enlightenment.

 

[jmcrae]

As a Lutheran, I think the best reason for non-catholics not to take Communion in a Catholic Church is because they’ve asked us not to. When I visit a Catholic church for Mass, I am a guest in their church. If nothing else, a guest should respect the wishes of the host. If we honor, love, and respect our brothers and sisters in Christ, we respect their wishes when they welcome us into their house of worship. Then, we pray the Holy Spirit lead all of us to unity, so this is no longer a question.

Blessings,
Jon

Brilliant.

Most people would think nothing of removing their shoes to enter the home of a Japanese friend, or (for men) to put on a yarmulka when entering a Synagogue, or (for women) to put on a head scarf when entering a Mosque. Such gestures of respect are regarded as the marques of a civilized, educated, and well-cultured individual.

Yet, when it comes to the Catholic Church, the simple act of refraining from Holy Communion if one is not a Catholic (or not in the state of grace, or not properly disposed to receive) seems to require that we as Catholics must respond to an Inquisition that would make Torquemada himself blush, before our interrogator will leave well enough alone.

 

[joeybaggz]

Oh, and who “consecrates” the bread and wine at your non-denominational church of 3500 people?

Just wondering…

 

[joeybaggz]

And to JonNC

I second jmcrae’s post. Thanks for the respect.

God Bless