Non-Catholics and the Mother of God

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella,

Mary is highly favored! She was definitely blessed… How do those verses prove she is queen of heaven? All it shows to me is that God favored her and she was blessed enough to be able to carry and give birth to Jesus Christ…Well what do you think of this verse?..(Luke 11:27-28) Or (Mt 12:46-50)

Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she exclaimed, “Most blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb,” (Lk 1:42) and added later. “Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled” (Lk:1:45). In the first instance Elizabeth is indeed praising her cousin Mary as the most blessed woman ever on earth, because she was favoured with the privilege of being the mother of the Lord. Elizabeth spoke in Aramaic so she would have used the ancient semitic word* Adonis* which in English is Lord and in the Greek translation by Luke Kurio. Adonis is also used in the Old Testament Hebrew Bible when referring to YHWH. So it is no surprise that Elizabeth ecstatically congratulated her cousin for having conceived God incarnate. Who wouldn’t have in Palestine among the faithful if they happened to eventually believe in the Incarnation by the grace of God? But just as Jesus had when he spoke to the woman in the crowd after she had praised his mother for having borne and nursed him, Elizabeth praised Mary for her meritorious act of faith, without which the divine Word ought not to be made man. Jesus could have become a man by being formed out of the clay in the earth as Adam had been, by the operation of the Holy Spirit, but instead he desired to have a genuine loving mother who would welcome him in faith with open arms, and whose human personality he longed to assume. If Mary had disappointed our Lord at the start, the Incarnation would not have occurred.

Likewise, if we as individuals reject the divine offer of salvation by self-righteously presuming that we are in no need of being saved from sin and death, Jesus will reject and condemn us on the Day of Judgment and cast our souls into hell, unless we repent of this deadly sin of presumption before we die. God desires to save everyone, according to Paul in his first Letter to Timothy, but salvation is his free gift to us, not something imposed against our will because God feels obligated to us. For it is by the love and mercy of God that we are saved, not by his justice. If it were by his justice, then Protestants would be correct in believing that we are justified by being externally covered by the alien righteousness of Christ, and that our works of charity simply sanctify our souls and determine our eternal rewards once we are saved permanently by our acquired faith in Jesus. So much for the grace of hope and final perseverance! Without hope and any need to persevere to the end, there is no longer any reason to pray for one’s soul, so perhaps this might explain one reason why most Protestants feel it is superfluous to supplicate Mary for her prayerful assistance. Our Lord’s death on the cross is an act of atonement, not a legal transaction by which Jesus covers our debts to the Father and imputes his righteousness to our account, while inherently we are still totally corrupt like “cow dung covered by snow” to use Luther’s metaphor. In his first Letter (4:8). Peter writes “Love covers a multitude of sins,” meaning that we are justified by our sincere love for the "Father" and our neighbour, and implying that we can lose our justification before God every time we commit a deadly (mortal) sin against him and our neighbour and remain in that fallen state until we sincerely repent as David had after he committed murder and adultery.

David sought an interior and internal righteousness of being effected by the infused grace of God when he cried out" Create a clean heart in me, O Lord. Put a steadfast spirit within me" (Ps 51:10). He was more concerned with loving God and being conformed to his divine image than he was with being eternally damned ( a true mark of faith). He would have wanted to “put on Christ” rather than just be covered by him and shielded from the Father’s wrath (justice) if he happened to be alive on the other side of the Cross and heard Paul preach the Good News. By the grace of God we can be interiorly transformed slowly but surely, and molded into a relative state of divine perfection sufficiently pleasing enough to avoid the Divine justice, only if by the sufficient grace of God we are sincerely willing enough to cooperate with his efficacious actual graces. “So be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48); “Purify yourself as he is pure” (cf.1 Jn 3:3). Thus it’s wise to petition Mary for her stewardship of divine grace.

So Jesus meant that Mary was more blessed for having pronounced her* fiat * at the Annunciation than for having conceived and borne him immediately after. Her act of faith working through love (Gal 5:5-6) served to save not only her, but us all. The Greek word for “rather” in Luke 11:28 is menounge, meaning “more than” in this instance. Mary had first conceived Christ spiritually in her heart, mind, and soul. So that is why she subsequently conceived and bore her Son physically. She was more of a mother to him by her faith than she was by her biological and natural capacity, making her more blessed than the woman in the crowd thought she was, for she had no idea, like Elizabeth, that Jesus was the divine Word incarnate. Who is our Lord’s true mother? The one who had first of all conceived him spiritually that morning in the month of Elul in an act of faith informed by love (caritas) that was causative of the redemption formally achieved by Christ in strict justice by the mercy of God the Father.

PAX :heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

The bible is pretty clear on salvation, how to live a healthy life, umm lets see how to forgive, how to treat one another. But those verses that Good Fella posted ? I’ve read them over and over and it doesn’t add up, if you where to show those verses to anyone not Catholic it doesn’t say anywhere Mary is what is claimed, I mean no disrespect.

These verses won’t make as much sense to you as any other verse won’t on whatever claims Catholics make, because they can’t make any sense at all divorced from the Apostolic Tradition of the Church. Scripture is the result of Tradition (Lk 1:1-4) in both Christianity and Judaism, so it must be intrepreted in light of Tradition from which it proceeds by the authentic Apostolic teaching authority of the Church (Acts 8: 26-40) which listed the canon of Scripture. The rejected apocryphal books are what they are because they are inconsonant with the orthodox traditions of the Church. Nor can the truth come to light if one merely reads the Bible in a literal sense. The Scriptures must also be read in a spiritual sense (allegorical, anagogical, and moral), Meanwhile, nothing in Scripture is contradicted by our Marian doctrines. As with all Church doctrines they developed over time as part of the deposit of faith which rests on the “preaching” of the Apostles (1 Cor 11:2). Tradition is not static, but dynamic and progressive while safeguarded under the guidance of the Holy Spirit from one generation to the next until the end of time (Jn 16:12-13; Mt 28:20). The Holy Spirit is the principal Subject directing the movement and growth of Tradition through the Magisterium, episcopacy, clergy, and the laity. Scripture serves as the objective rule by which we put our traditions to the test and receive confirmation of their validity in the deposit of faith. But Scripture is not the only rule or norm to go by, since the canon was formed by putting all the written texts to the test by weighing them against the orthodox traditions of the Church. If it weren’t for the Catholic Church, you couldn’t be sure whether Hebrews or Revelation is actually a canonical book, or any of the four gospels for that matter. Appealing to the Bible Alone as a rule of faith is begging the question.

The notion that the early Church fathers I mean not the ones after 400 AD, since for me at least I stick to what the early Christians believed, you will find not ONE made such claim of Mary.

1. Mary, Mother of God

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit…**both of Mary and of God…**Jesus Christ our Lord.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 [A.D. 110]

1. Mary, Mother of the Church
   "And she is once virgin and mother…and calling her children to her, she nurses them with milk, viz., the Word for childhood."
   St. Clement of Alexandria, the Instructor, 1:6 [A.D. 202]
2. Mary, Queen of Heaven

*“But the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the **advocate ***of Eve.”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, !9:1 [c.A.D. 180]

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger, O you alone pure and alone blessed."
Sub Tuum Praesidium, from Ryland’s Papyrus [c.A.D. 250]

1. Mary, co-Redemptrix

"He became man by the Virgin** in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it received its origin**. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy…And by her He has been born."
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 [A.D. 155]

“As the human race was subjected to death by the act of a virgin (Eve), so it** was saved by a virgin** (Mary).”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, 19:1 [c.A.D. 180]

1. Mary, Mediatrix of All Grace

"And He took the form of a slave from the Holy Virgin, in order that He might call us up to the glorified dominical image,…that He might make us sharers of the heavenly form. He sat on the lap of the Holy Virgin, that He might place us on the right hand in the intimacy of the Father…In the womb of the Holy Virgin was he, that He might renew the Adam destroyed by sin….Christ, Son of God, who was born of the Holy Virgin Mary, hath come as grace into the world, because by means of grace He hath made us alive."
St. Gregory Thaumaturgus, Homily Concerning the Holy Mother of God [c.A.D.262]

The titles that have been given to Mary denote in part what the above Fathers intend to teach on Mary’s vital participation in the Divine work of salvation and her place in the order of grace.

PAX :harp:

 

[rbarcia]

Is she honored? Is she treated as your mother like Jesus told us to do? And if not, why? Is she just another women? Even though she was entrusted to give birth and care for our beloved Savior.

What exactly is the point of view and belief of the Blessed Mother of God in non-Catholic denominations?

When did Jesus command us to treat Mary as our mother? I find no such instance in the Bible.

If you mean Jesus telling the disciple whom He loved there is your mother, then you are drawing a conclusion that is not there.

The Mary of the Bible is blessed woman, but not to the be taken as an idle to be worshiped (or venerated ). What made her blessed is being chosen to give birth to the Messiah. Our focus should be completely on Jesus. I do see Jesus pointing to the multitudes calling anyone who does the Lord’s will as being mother, brother, or sister. There is no command in the Bible to honor Mary, so Jesus never told us to do that.

Matthew 12

46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”** 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”**

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’ve read Revelation 12, and I don’t believe the reference is to Mary. Here is where I see problems with that interpretation:

Revelation 12.1:
“And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”

The 12 stars [most likely] fit the 12 tribes of Israel.

and, mostly, Revelation 12.6:

“and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days”

I cannot find a context where this could possibly refer to Mary.

You mean the Woman in flight with Child, who is cover by Gods Hand and sought by satan?

I immediatly think of the Holy Family and the Flight to Egypt.

I don’t know how the Star’s present anything more than a coincidence to the Twelve Tribes of Isreal. No different than the Twelve Apostles would?

Catholics believe its a Mystery of Faith called the Coronation. Which is the Queen of Heaven. What is there to verify it? Actually many ways.

For me its Our Lady of Fatima off the top of my head, and then it just goes on and on from there. Fatima would be the Most significant religious event the last 100 years. And the only time in History God comes into real time predicts then confirms a miracle. Total breach of the Laws of Nature recorded world wide by the AP, and witnessed by 70-thousand.

Sorry you disagree.

Peace

 

[Rahn]

1. Mary, Queen of Heaven

"Hail, O highly favoured one!" Chaire kecharitomene]
Luke 1, 28

"Hail, king of the Jews!" Chaire basileus ton ioudaion]
John 19, 3

I will set upon the throne the fruit of your body.
Psalm 132, 11

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

"It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our* Queen***. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord Good Master who was born of you. For this reason you are called ‘full of grace.’"
St. Athanasius, the Marian Prayer (d. A.D. 373)

“Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory!”
St.Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3 (ante A.D. 446)

How do you reconcile this against the following passages from the book of Jeremiah?

Jeremiah 7.18:
The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 44.17:
But we will do everything that we have vowed, make offerings to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we did, both we and our fathers, our kings and our officials, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, and prospered, and saw no disaster.
PLEASE, read the entire chapters for context. If I was Mary, I don’t think I’d particularly want the title of “Queen of Heaven”

 

[Rahn]

You mean the Woman in flight with Child, who is cover by Gods Hand and sought by satan?

I immediatly think of the Holy Family and the Flight to Egypt.

I don’t know how the Star’s present anything more than a coincidence to the Twelve Tribes of Isreal. No different than the Twelve Apostles would?

Catholics believe its a Mystery of Faith called the Coronation. Which is the Queen of Heaven. What is there to verify it? Actually many ways.

For me its Our Lady of Fatima off the top of my head, and then it just goes on and on from there. Fatima would be the Most significant religious event the last 100 years. And the only time in History God comes into real time predicts then confirms a miracle. Total breach of the Laws of Nature recorded world wide by the AP, and witnessed by 70-thousand.

Sorry you disagree.

Peace

I’m sorry we disagree, as well. And, I’m not sure about your reply in several ways, can you clarify?

Can you elaborate on how you feel that Revelation 12.1 corresponds to the Flight to Egypt? I don’t see it.

Also, not sure you’ve dealt with Revelation 12.6 here, if you have, please make it plainer to me.

Peace to you

 

[GaryTaylor]

Google “Coronation of Mary” on any Catholic link. And it will “clarify”. Nor am I relating the Flight to Egypt with 12:1 but to the context of Revelation. The question came up about Mary being in Revelations at “ALL”. Its a Mystery of Faith.

Here’s CAFs link… search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7m9qLQdOww4A8lBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0NWhtZGs1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1FJMDI2XzE4Nw–/SIG=12fe6f1h2/EXP=1309114826/**http%3a//www.catholic-forum.com/themes/coronation_of_mary.htm

What clarifys the Twleve Stars being Israel theory?

Peace

 

[Good_Fella]

How do you reconcile this against the following passages from the book of Jeremiah?

Jeremiah 7.18:
The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 44.17:
But we will do everything that we have vowed, make offerings to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we did, both we and our fathers, our kings and our officials, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, and prospered, and saw no disaster.
PLEASE, read the entire chapters for context. If I was Mary, I don’t think I’d particularly want the title of “Queen of Heaven”

The word for “queen” in the book of Jeremiah is meleketh. Mary is queen of heaven as our Queen Mother, which in the Hebrew is Gebirah. We must not confuse Mary with the pagan goddess Isis or Gaia as Protestants do. Mary is queen of the kingdom of Heaven because her Son is the King in his assumed humanity, not because she is divine.

Why wouldn’t you want the title Queen of Heaven if you were Mary? Wouldn’t you be honoured if God chose you to be the Mother of the Lord?

PAX :heaven:

 

[EzraJacob]

Since Revelation has come up, id like to ask has anyone read the book “The lambs Supper”?

I am currently reading this book and its amazing. The author is explaining how mass and the book of Revelation go together and Mass is the key to the book. Very interesting. It also argues that this is what the early Church Fathers believed as well.

 

[Roy5]

What do Protestants think about Mary?

They vary somewhat. Generally, however, they reject key doctrines of the Catholic Church re Mary, such as her perpetual virginity, the Immaculate Conception (defined in 1864) and the Assumption (defined in 1950). 

 There is universal respect for Mary among Protestants, especially around Christmas and on Good Friday ("The Seven Last Words" from the cross).

 But many Protestants would contend that Catholicism has developed a Mariology unsupported by scripture. For example, Mary is only mentioned in the Gospels twice between the birth of Jesus and his crucifixion, and in both instances Jesus seems amost dismissive of his mother - i. e., Matt. 12:46-50 and John 2:4. They also are likely to mention that in all of the letters of Paul and the other epistles Mary is not mentioned once. If Mary was central to early Christians why that omissions?

 And where in the Bible is there support for the Immaculate Conception? The Bible doesn't even mention the parents of Mary. Nor the Assumption. Protestants would say that these are based on Mariology that developed over the years rather than scripture.

 There is a strong suspicion among well-informed Protestants, such as their clergy, that the Catholic Church was unduly influenced by various pagan influences that led to an exaggerated role of Mary. They tend to see many Catholics as devoting more attention to Mary than to Jesus - as, for example, the emphasis on the Rosary, which includes the "Hail Mary" much more frequently than the "Our Father" etc.

 As for Mother of God, well, that depends upon the Protestant. Some may use that phrase, Others would argue that it is misleading. God created Mary and it is somehow playing with words and misleading to call her the Mother of God. God had no mother. Mary was the mother of Jesus, and they would leave it at that. As for 'Queen of Heaven', they would trace such appellations to pagan influences. 

 Now, was Mary a perpetual virgin? Catholicism claims that when the Bible speaks of the brothers of Jesus it means his cousins, or maybe children of Joseph by an earlier marriage. Most Protestants would argue that if Mary had additional children, why not? She and Joseph were married, and why should they not have engaged in normal marital relations that bring so much joy, sharing, and bonding to married couples. To deny that possibility can seem like making marital relations somehow less than okay. Today, of course, a husband or wife could even get a church annulment if the marriage is not consummated. Is it just another church teaching that would seem to negate the blessed gift of sex within marriage?

 God bless everybody - Catholics, Protestants, etc.

 

[Zirconia]

What does this Protestant believe about Mary?

I believe she was the most righteous woman who ever lived, an admirable role model for all of us. The church I attend regularly (ELCA) has an icon of Mary in the sanctuary. There is usually a lit candle and flowers next to it. Sometimes I pray in front of it.

But in the Southern Baptist church I used to attend, there was almost no mention of her at all, except at Christmas time. I think it depends on the denomination, and the further away in time the denomination is from the Reformation.

 

[Rahn]

Google “Coronation of Mary” on any Catholic link. And it will “clarify”. Nor am I relating the Flight to Egypt with 12:1 but to the context of Revelation. The question came up about Mary being in Revelations at “ALL”. Its a Mystery of Faith.

Here’s CAFs link… search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7m9qLQdOww4A8lBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0NWhtZGs1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1FJMDI2XzE4Nw–/SIG=12fe6f1h2/EXP=1309114826/**http%3a//www.catholic-forum.com/themes/coronation_of_mary.htm

What clarifys the Twleve Stars being Israel theory?

Peace

The link came up as “not authorised by Yahoo”, but no worries, I googled it.

I understand that the Coronation of Mary is a Mystery of Faith, but what I am saying is that you don’t get that meaning from the actual text in the book of Revelation. So, you can see where a non-Catholic may not get the meaning.

No clarification in the twelve stars referring to Israel. The thought of the woman being a reference to Israel had been previously stated, and interpreting the twelve stars as the tribes of Israel sort of fits that. Once again, I’m hard-put to find a meaning (outside the Coronation of Mary) that fits Mary. The only other 12 I can think of is the 12 apostles, but Mary really didn’t have a close association with them (except for John).

 

[fred_conty]

Coronation of Mary​

Hi Prochrist1,

When Jesus was in front of Pilate, He was asked if He were a king. And Jesus said that He was indeed a king but that it wasn’t of this world. And that if He wanted, he could have angels come to his rescue.

And when Jesus was riding into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, people threw Palm branches and thier garments down in front of him proclaiming him king.

Now if Jesus is king, then would it not be fair to say that his mother should be the queen mother? So that her kingdom is not of this world either but next to her son in his kingdom in heaven?

 

[Good_Fella]

The link came up as “not authorised by Yahoo”, but no worries, I googled it.

I understand that the Coronation of Mary is a Mystery of Faith, but what I am saying is that you don’t get that meaning from the actual text in the book of Revelation. So, you can see where a non-Catholic may not get the meaning.
type
No clarification in the twelve stars referring to Israel. The thought of the woman being a reference to Israel had been previously stated, and interpreting the twelve stars as the tribes of Israel sort of fits that. Once again, I’m hard-put to find a meaning (outside the Coronation of Mary) that fits Mary. The only other 12 I can think of is the 12 apostles, but Mary really didn’t have a close association with them (except for John).

The symbolism in the Apocalypse is polyvalent, meaning the woman in chapter 12 is Israel, the Church, and the Blessed Virgin Mary. Israel and the Church are represented as corporate types of the new Eve, whereas Mary is the personal type. Israel is daughter Zion, the Church is the new Zion or Jerusalem, Mary is the personification of daughter Zion and prototype of the Church. The twelve stars symbolize the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles on whom the Church is founded. Jesus may have selected one apostle from each tribe of Israel. Whether John actually saw the person of Mary, we don’t know. But the vision of the woman does indeed stand for her in all aspects, which are interchangeable between Israel and the Church. Thus the symbol of the woman has more than one meaning, although Mary herself could have presented herself as a living symbol, since she does personify Eve, Israel, and the Church in various aspects. The crown on the woman’s head must symbolize her own crown and coronation, for it also symbolizes the crown of victory all of her children (as Mother or the Church) shall receive at the final Resurrection. Some of the Church Fathers believed the woman in John’s vision is Mary herself.

PAX :heaven:

 

[Swiss_Guy]

After 431 AD yes!

Not earlier…

see Luke 1:43.

If she’s not the MoG, than do you think that Christ isn’t God? Just wondering.

 

[Good_Fella]

What do Protestants think about Mary?
They vary somewhat. Generally, however, they reject key doctrines of the Catholic Church re Mary, such as her perpetual virginity, the Immaculate Conception (defined in 1864) and the Assumption (defined in 1950).

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity was defined in the 4th century. The doctrine of the two wills in Christ (human/divine) was defined in the 7th century, etc…, which, by the way, Protestants accept. The Protestant doctrines of the 5 Solas were unheard of until the 16th century with the rise of Protestantism.

There is universal respect for Mary among Protestants, especially around Christmas and on Good Friday (“The Seven Last Words” from the cross)

There’s hope over the horizon.

But many Protestants would contend that Catholicism has developed a Mariology unsupported by scripture. For example, Mary is only mentioned in the Gospels twice between the birth of Jesus and his crucifixion, and in both instances Jesus seems amost dismissive of his mother - i. e., Matt. 12:46-50 and John 2:4. They also are likely to mention that in all of the letters of Paul and the other epistles Mary is not mentioned once. If Mary was central to early Christians why that omissions?

Mary is first mentioned when God becomes incarnate at the Annunciation. And she is also mentioned especially at the pivotal events in salvation history recorded in the Gospels because of her close association with Jesus in his work of redemption. Jesus never rebuked his mother. For instance, the question “Woman, how does your concern affect me?” is an idiomatic expession of ancient Jewish culture, and translated from the Greek into everyday English could read “Normally I wouldn’t do it (perform the miracle), but since it’s you (my mother) who is asking, it’s no trouble at all.” We all know what happened next.* Mary said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”* (Jn 2:5).

And where in the Bible is there support for the Immaculate Conception? The Bible doesn’t even mention the parents of Mary. Nor the Assumption. Protestants would say that these are based on Mariology that developed over the years rather than scripture.

Luke typifies Mary as the ark of the new Covenant by referring to the second book of Samuel. We all know by what materials the ark of the old Covenant was made of to render it pure and spotless, the same way Mary was fashioned. Often we must read Scripture in an allegorical sense. The angel Gabriel greeted Mary as the favoured one (kecharitomene) “the one who has been perfected by grace”. So the Immaculate Conception is implicitly revealed in Scripture, which is a result of Tradition. The Assumption isn’t explicitly referred to because no apostle witnessed the event. Mary did not return to earth as Jesus had after his resurrection. We have the canon of Scripture because the sacred texts are consonant with the Apostolic Tradition which naturally existed first and continues to develop over time.

There is a strong suspicion among well-informed Protestants, such as their clergy, that the Catholic Church was unduly influenced by various pagan influences that led to an exaggerated role of Mary. They tend to see many Catholics as devoting more attention to Mary than to Jesus - as, for example, the emphasis on the Rosary, which includes the “Hail Mary” much more frequently than the “Our Father” etc.

IIt would appear that the well-informed Protestant clergy are poorly informed or dishonest. Muslims, Jews, and athiests feel the same way about our conception of Jesus. Second, attend a Catholic Mass and you’ll see who’s paying more attention to Jesus and less to his pastor at the podium. Third, concerning the Rosary, it isn’t worth commenting. .

As for Mother of God, well, that depends upon the Protestant. Some may use that phrase, Others would argue that it is misleading. God created Mary and it is somehow playing with words and misleading to call her the Mother of God. God had no mother. Mary was the mother of Jesus, and they would leave it at that. As for ‘Queen of Heaven’, they would trace such appellations to pagan influences.

Protestants can’t make up their minds and agree with each other on even more essential doctrines because they are relying only on the Bible and their own interpretations with no help from the Holy Spirit outside the Church. Concerning Jesus, he is one individual divine personality. The title “Queen of Heaven” is of Judaic heritage brought to fulfillment.

Now, was Mary a perpetual virgin? Catholicism claims that when the Bible speaks of the brothers of Jesus it means his cousins, or maybe children of Joseph by an earlier marriage. Most Protestants would argue that if Mary had additional children, why not? She and Joseph were married…
God bless everybody - Catholics, Protestants, etc.

Morally, and in accord with the precepts of the Torah, instituted by God, Mary could not have had any other children with Joseph, because she already had another child with another Person, who overshadowed her by his power. Why would God dismiss his own precepts while expecting us to observe them? The Protestant God isn’t that unrighteous, is he? The marriage between Mary and Joseph was just legal - not moral.

PAX :heaven:

 

[Kristin234]

The Protestant God isn’t that unrighteous, is he?

The Protestant God? Are you insinuating that Protestants and Catholics believe in a different God?

 

[Good_Fella]

The Protestant God? Are you insinuating that Protestants and Catholics believe in a different God?

The same God, but one characteristically different. The Catholic God doesn’t seduce women to have children and then discard them or ridicule his mother in public in violation of the Torah…

PAX :heaven:

 

[mskejj]

Good Fella,

Mary is highly favored! She was definitely blessed and of course she was full of grace! How do those verses prove she is queen of heaven? All it shows to me is that God favored her and she was blessed enough to be able to carry and give birth to Jesus Christ.

You quoted Jesus telling the disciple “This is your mother.” Well, what do you think about this verse? As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” (Luke 11:27,28)

Or:He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

By the way, I am honestly curious as to what Catholics think about the above verses. I’m not trying to start an argument or anything.

I’m confused. How does Colossians 1:24 prove that Marys is co-Redemptrix? Paul is the one who wrote that. In all the Bibles I have the chapter for that is called “Paul’s labor for the church.” And even if that was about Mary how would that prove she is indeed co-Redemptrix?

Philippians 1:29 says all who follow Christ will suffer for his sake. “For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him.”

By the way, quoting what other Catholics said about Mary being co-Redemptrix, Mother of the Church, or queen of heaven isn’t going to prove anything to non-Catholics. That’s like me going up to an atheist and saying Jesus is God because the Bible says so. If they don’t believe the Bible is true then they wont believe Jesus is God.

This youtube link will show you why the Catholic Church believes that Mary is the New Eve, The Ark of the New Covenant, and the Queen of Heaven and Earth by using the Bible…Remember also that chapter and verses was not added to the bible until the 1200’s so if you read Revelation 11 at the end of the chapter you will notice that John looks up into the heavens and sees what has been missing since the Babylonian exile…the ark of the covenant. In the very next verse but in Chapter 12 he begins to describe the Woman clothed with the Sun with the crown of 12 stars etc…The Catholic church has always studied the Bible using typology…the New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament and the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament.

I think you will find the video interesting…let me know what you think.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

 

[SteveGC]

And I would recommend the following 2 books:

Dr. Edward Sri’s book, Queen Mother: A Biblical Theology of Mary’s Queenship

Dr. Scott Hahn’s book, Hail, Holy Queen

Peace.