Non-Catholics and the Mother of God

  • Thread starter Thread starter EzraJacob
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Good_Fella said:
The same God, but one characteristically different. The Catholic God doesn’t seduce women to have children and then discard them or ridicule his mother in public in violation of the Torah…

PAX :heaven:
Click to expand...
👍

Jesus would never dishonour Mary or Joseph. They were his parents and being the perfect Jew he kept the Commandments.
 
Zirconia said:
What does this Protestant believe about Mary?

I believe she was the most righteous woman who ever lived, an admirable role model for all of us. The church I attend regularly (ELCA) has an icon of Mary in the sanctuary. There is usually a lit candle and flowers next to it. Sometimes I pray in front of it.

But in the Southern Baptist church I used to attend, there was almost no mention of her at all, except at Christmas time. I think it depends on the denomination, and the further away in time the denomination is from the Reformation.
Click to expand...
👍
 
I remember before my conversion I once went to an Easter performance at a Southern Baptist Church, which contained an entire monologue dedicated to Mary, and her anguish as her Son died on the cross. They even made a reference to the prophesied ‘sword’ that pierced her heart. I was surprised to see that at a Baptist Church.
 
rbarcia said:
No, John and James were brothers and therefore from the same tribe. As were Peter and Andrew brothers and they were from the same tribe.
Click to expand...
Inter-tribal marriage has been a practice among Jews since after the first generation; so John and James, and Peter and Andrew, could have had parents from different tribes. But it’s true that Jesus couldn’t have chosen the original Twelve from each tribe based strictly on the father’s genealogy.

PAX :heaven:
 
Good_Fella said:
1. Mary, Queen of Heaven

"Hail, O highly favoured one!" Chaire kecharitomene]
Luke 1, 28

“Hail, king of the Jews!” Chaire basileus ton ioudaion]
John 19, 3

I will set upon the throne the fruit of your body.
Psalm 132, 11

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

"It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our* Queen***. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord Good Master who was born of you. For this reason you are called ‘full of grace.’"
St. Athanasius, the Marian Prayer (d. A.D. 373)

“Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory!”
St.Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3 (ante A.D. 446)

2. Mary, Mother of the Church

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son." Then he said to the** disciple**, “Behold your mother.”
John 19, 26-27

Then the dragon became angry with the** woman** and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring**, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus**.
Revelation 12, 17

God said to the serpent, “I will put enmity between you and the** woman**, and between your offspring and her offspring.”
Genesis 3, 15

And Zion shall be called “Mother”,
for all shall be her children.
Psalm 87, 5

"I love to call her [Mary] the Church, this mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother - - pure as a virgin and loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood."
St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 1:6 (A,D, 202)

“Eve was called the mother of the living…after the fall this title was given to her. True it is…the whole race of man upon earth was born from Eve, but in reality it is from Mary the Life was truly born to the world. So that by giving birth to the Living One, Mary became the mother of all the living.”
St. Epiphanius, Against Eighty Heresies, 78,9 (inter A.D. 374-77)

3. Mary, co-Redemptrix

Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted, and you yourself a sword shall pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
Luke 2, 35

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the Church.
Colossians 1, 24

If we are afflicted, it is for your encouragement and** salvation**.
2 Corinthians 1, 6

By charity and faith guilt is expiated.
Proverbs 16, 6

“By disobeying, Eve became the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race.In the same way Mary…by obeying became…the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race.”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (c.A.D. 180)

“She engendered redemption for humanity, she was carrying in her womb the remission of sin.”
St. Ambrose, De Mysteriis lll, 13 (c.A.D. 387)

4. Mary, Mediatrix of Grace

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
John 2, 3

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, “Drink from it all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”
Matthew 26, 27-28

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory. For the wedding day of the lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.
Revelation 19, 7,9

You have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for your benefit.
Ephesians 3, 2

Every man has received grace, ministering the same to one another: as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1 Peter 4, 10

“Let us not be astonished that the Lord, who came to save the world, began his work in Mary, so that she, by whom the salvation of all was being readied, would be the first to receive from her own child its fruits.”
St. Ambrose, Exposition of the Gospel of Luke ll, 17 (A.D.387)

“With the Mediator you are the Mediatrix of the entire world.”
St. Ephraem, Syri opera graeca et latine, v.3 (A.D. 373)

PAX :harp:
Click to expand...
This is a beautiful explanation of who Mary is.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

Guess I should have read to the end since I see now that this video is already posted. 🤷
 
EzraJacob said:
Is she honored? Is she treated as your mother like Jesus told us to do? And if not, why? Is she just another women? Even though she was entrusted to give birth and care for our beloved Savior.

What exactly is the point of view and belief of the Blessed Mother of God in non-Catholic denominations?
Click to expand...
I lived in Ireland for some years and was an active member of the (Anglican) Church of Ireland (C of I). They produced a useful leaflet called “Mary, Virgin and Mother”. It’s quite long, so I’ll only reproduce parts:

“Mary’s special position within God’s purpose of salvation as “God bearer” (theotokos) is recognised in a number of ways. The C of I affirms in the historic creeds that Jesus was born of Mary and retains” the following feast days:

i) The Presentation (2 Feb);

ii) The Annunciation (25 March);

iii) The Visitation (31 May);

iv) The Birth of the Blessed Virgin (8 Sept)

The liturgical tradition of the Church is to honour the saints, including Mary, without invocation. Our prayers are only to God.

As the Church does not consider belief in the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin and her Assumption to have an adequate base in Holy Scripture, these feasts are not observed.
 
LOCO said:
👍

Jesus would never dishonour Mary or Joseph. They were his parents and being the perfect Jew he kept the Commandments.
Click to expand...
Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them…And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
*Luke 2, 51, 53 *

That’s for sure. Many Protestants are quick to find fault with Mary, even to the point where she exasperates her Son and tries his patience. But the Gospels only record moments in which the apostles failed our Lord by betraying or denying him or fleeing for fear of their lives, while Mary stood by her Son right to the bitter end on Calvary with only one disciple, John. And the Gospels do record Jesus as having literally rebuked Peter, James, and John.

But turning around and seeing his disciples, He rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind me Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests.
Mark 8, 33

When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven and destroy them?” But Jesus turned and rebuked them. Then he and his disciples went to another village."
Luke 9, 54-56

Some Protestants believe that Jesus rebuked his mother Mary by adressing her with the title “Woman” when at the wedding feast in Cana. However, the Greek word for woman in John’s Gospel is Gnyai which is used out of honour and respect for the person who is addressed. In reality Jesus was alluding to his mother as a type of new Eve and helpmate in his work of redemption ( Gen 2:18, 23). It is on this occasion that Jesus begins his public ministry through Mary’s solicitation. Our Lord uses the same title when addressing his mother at the end of his ministry on the cross (Jn 19:26-27), referring to her as the new Eve, mother of the new order of creation, that which will be restored from its fallen state by our Lord’s death on the cross.

Meanwhile some Protestants will try to diminish our Blessed Mother’s character by accusing her of being a negligent mother, as on the occasion when Jesus disappeared to preach in the temple at the age of twelve. But their charge is totally unjustified. At that time when the extended family members travelled to Jerusalem for the Pasch, the males and females journeyed in separate groups. So what actually must of happened was Jesus slipped away from his stepfather Joseph. This would explain why Jesus had said to his mother “Did you [Mary and Joseph] not know I had to be in my father’s house?” The will of our Lord’s real Father had priority at this time. And his real home was where his heavenly Father dwelled. His actual Father had to be obeyed, so Jesus did not dishonour Joseph by disappearing without his consent.

“Whoever honours the Lord also honours the holy vessel; who instead dishonours the holy vessel also dishonours his Master. Mary herself is that holy virgin, that is, the holy vessel.”
St. Epiphanius, the Panarion, 78:21 [A.D. 377]

PAX :heaven:
 
PbloPicasso said:
I believe I speak for most Protestants here when I say that Mary is really held in high esteem. She is viewed like Moses or someone else of significance in salvation history. She might even be held in higher esteem to most. But they fall short in elevating her to the THEOTOKOS, Mother of God, as we historically hold fast to. I can tell you of some really difficult times in my protestant days, fallen away Catholic, where I actually turned to Mary and prayed the Hail Mary in proper context, knowing it’s scrutpure. I missed her as being “my mother”, When I was a teenager, I was in such a bad situation growing up that I dedicated my life to being the adopted child of Mary and Joseph as my mother and foster father. Thus Jesus was my brother and savior. Looking back 35 years back, it was a sweet gesture on my part and that was before I understood the nature of Mary as being the new Eve and teachings of the Church on Mary as our mother.
Click to expand...
Anglicans recognise the Blessed Virgin as Theokotos.

Source: “Mary: Virgin and Mother”, information published by the Church of Ireland, a Church of the Anglican Communion.
 
Good_Fella said:
The same God, but one characteristically different. The Catholic God doesn’t seduce women to have children and then discard them or ridicule his mother in public in violation of the Torah…

PAX :heaven:
Click to expand...
Does the “Protestant God”?(Or the Anglican one?) Tell me more.
 
Good_Fella said:
Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them…And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
*Luke 2, 51, 53 *

That’s for sure. Many Protestants are quick to find fault with Mary, even to the point where she exasperates her Son and tries his patience. But the Gospels only record moments in which the apostles failed our Lord by betraying or denying him or fleeing for fear of their lives, while Mary stood by her Son right to the bitter end on Calvary with only one disciple, John. And the Gospels do record Jesus as having literally rebuked Peter, James, and John.

But turning around and seeing his disciples, He rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind me Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests.
Mark 8, 33

When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven and destroy them?” But Jesus turned and rebuked them. Then he and his disciples went to another village."
Luke 9, 54-56

Some Protestants believe that Jesus rebuked his mother Mary by adressing her with the title “Woman” when at the wedding feast in Cana. However, the Greek word for woman in John’s Gospel is Gnyai which is used out of honour and respect for the person who is addressed. In reality Jesus was alluding to his mother as a type of new Eve and helpmate in his work of redemption ( Gen 2:18, 23). It is on this occasion that Jesus begins his public ministry through Mary’s solicitation. Our Lord uses the same title when addressing his mother at the end of his ministry on the cross (Jn 19:26-27), referring to her as the new Eve, mother of the new order of creation, that which will be restored from its fallen state by our Lord’s death on the cross.

Meanwhile some Protestants will try to diminish our Blessed Mother’s character by accusing her of being a negligent mother, as on the occasion when Jesus disappeared to preach in the temple at the age of twelve. But their charge is totally unjustified. At that time when the extended family members travelled to Jerusalem for the Pasch, the males and females journeyed in separate groups. So what actually must of happened was Jesus slipped away from his stepfather Joseph. This would explain why Jesus had said to his mother “Did you [Mary and Joseph] not know I had to be in my father’s house?” The will of our Lord’s real Father had priority at this time. And his real home was where his heavenly Father dwelled. His actual Father had to be obeyed, so Jesus did not dishonour Joseph by disappearing without his consent.

“Whoever honours the Lord also honours the holy vessel; who instead dishonours the holy vessel also dishonours his Master. Mary herself is that holy virgin, that is, the holy vessel.”
St. Epiphanius, the Panarion, 78:21 [A.D. 377]

PAX :heaven:
Click to expand...
Many Protestants are quick to find fault with Mary? Oh dear, yet another RC who “knows about Protestantism”. Well, speaking as an Anglican, I’ve never come across a member of my Communion who has ever tried to finf fault with the Blessed Virgin, who we honour.

Calling someone “Woman” is not derogatory. What is wrong with being a woman? My wife is one.
 
Cheshangle said:
Does the “Protestant God”?(Or the Anglican one?) Tell me more.
Click to expand...
I’ve already explained what I meant above, so scroll back. At least follow the thread before replying. That would be courteous.

PAX :heaven:
 
Cheshangle said:
Many Protestants are quick to find fault with Mary? Oh dear, yet another RC who “knows about Protestantism”. Well, speaking as an Anglican, I’ve never come across a member of my Communion who has ever tried to finf fault with the Blessed Virgin, who we honour.

Calling someone “Woman” is not derogatory. What is wrong with being a woman? My wife is one.
Click to expand...
Many reformed evangelical Christians outside the main stream of the Protestant movement have made such derogatory remarks about Mary. Just surf the internet or search past posts in this forum and you’ll see for youself.

:eek:
 
Disrespect for Mother Mary, I believe, is institutional. It’s handed down in a church from Family to Family until one day, someone realizes they have NO good reason for those feelings.

It’s absurd to “hate” or disrespect her. Now, as a Methodist, she just wasn’t regarded. I don’t remember a single “sermon” or mention of her, besides at Christmas. She’d get a blurb.

Now I’m Catholic and the mother to children who are saints. She is my Saint! She is Full of Grace!
 
Cheshangle said:
Many Protestants are quick to find fault with Mary? Oh dear, yet another RC who “knows about Protestantism”. Well, speaking as an Anglican, I’ve never come across a member of my Communion who has ever tried to finf fault with the Blessed Virgin, who we honour.

Calling someone “Woman” is not derogatory. What is wrong with being a woman? My wife is one.
Click to expand...
While this is admirable and commendable, and may ring true in your Parish [Angelican] which I have no doubt of. There are many lower Protestant denominations which simply do not up-hold these standards, in fact you’ll see the comments right here sooner or later. LIke “Mary is no different than any other christian woman” etc.

Gary
 
heathernoel said:
Disrespect for Mother Mary, I believe, is institutional. It’s handed down in a church from Family to Family until one day, someone realizes they have NO good reason for those feelings.

It’s absurd to “hate” or disrespect her. Now, as a Methodist, she just wasn’t regarded. I don’t remember a single “sermon” or mention of her, besides at Christmas. She’d get a blurb.

Now I’m Catholic and the mother to children who are saints.** She is my Saint! She is Full of Grace**!
Click to expand...
:amen:
 
Good_Fella said:
Many reformed evangelical Christians outside the main stream of the Protestant movement have made such derogatory remarks about Mary. Just surf the internet or search past posts in this forum and you’ll see for youself.

:eek:
Click to expand...
As a mainstream Christian, I’m not interested in reaing derogatory remarks about the Blessed Virgin, neither would I wish to be associated with them…
 
babylonsfalling said:
In the non Catholic Churches I’ve been to, Mary is completely ignored except for once or twice a year. Around Christmas time, there will be a reading of the nativity account and she’ll be mentioned there for sure. Maybe over the course of the next twelve months she might be mentioned again but that’s it.

Last year the pastor was using Christ’s response to her at the Cana wedding to make fun of Mary, as if she weren’t bright enough to know that she shouldn’t be pestering him about the wine, and if Mary only knew who he really was, she’d not be bothering him with it.

They don’t honor her at all. More attention is given to any of the patriarchs, any of the apostles, Biblical authors, Mary Magdalene…but Mary is ignored as much as possible, and it’s just very, very weird 🤷

I honestly don’t think they have a real problem with Mary but her absence is very noticeable and I can’t help wondering if there’s just a perception in the pastor’s mind that he can’t do anything “too Catholic”.
Click to expand...
You are generalising about Protestants: “they don’t honour her at all”. Anglicans do.

When did you last go to an Anglican eucharist?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top