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BettyBoop416
Guest
He probably doesn’t want to give himself a blinding headache first thing in the morning.
non-Catholics coming to Catholic liturgies in liturgical vestments
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Gorgias
Guest
These days, newly-ordained Catholic priests give a confessional stole to their Dad at the time of their ordination (as a kind of parallel gesture to giving their Mom the maniturgium). Are you calling that “just asking for trouble”, as well?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I would consider this markedly different than giving a stole with the personal coat of arms of a bishop to a non-related, non-Catholic “cleric,” who summarily wears the stole to a Catholic liturgy. The practice of new ordinands giving their fathers violet stoles is a very personal, almost private act, even if the father is not Catholic.These days, newly-ordained Catholic priests give a confessional stole to their Dad at the time of their ordination (as a kind of parallel gesture to giving their Mom the maniturgium). Are you calling that “just asking for trouble”, as well?
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Stylites
Guest
Wow, that’s really wonderful. Sounds like the princes of the Church were being characteristically hospitable and generous to our separated brethren who were fortunate to attend.
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Gorgias
Guest
Hmm. To put it that way, it almost seems that you’re saying that the bishop gave the gift with the intent that it would be used in a Catholic (or non-Catholic) liturgical setting. Do you think that was the bishop’s intent?
(If so, then you need to consider whether it was a ‘liturgical setting’, given that the woman wasn’t celebrating, but rather, was sitting in the pews.)
(If not, then you need to ask whether the gift was inappropriate, considering that it was given as a memento rather than as a liturgical vestment.)
Either way, it doesn’t seem like a problem.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I have absolutely no idea what the intent was.
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superamazingman
Guest
That’s not at all the same thing. It is a very personal gift from a priest to his father, obviously never intended to be used by the father, only possibly by the son (a priest) if he hears his Father’s confession in the future or something like that.These days, newly-ordained Catholic priests give a confessional stole to their Dad at the time of their ordination (as a kind of parallel gesture to giving their Mom the maniturgium). Are you calling that “just asking for trouble”, as well?
Giving out stoles simply for the heck of it to non catholic “clergy” that really have no personal value is just pointless, and asking for trouble, since the clergy may not (and did not, in this case) understand what it was for.
Honestly, I don’t understand what it was for either. Are they going to give them maniples and chausables too, just for fun?
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poche
Guest
Where did she sit? I hope she wasn’t one of the celebrants. If she wasn’t one of the celebrants, then she can wear whatever she would as she sat in the audience with the other invitees.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
Sounds like this wasn’t an issue at all then.
To recap:
*]Several years ago the bishop in the OP gave stoles to various local clergy (both Catholic and non-Catholic). He seems to have done this as a gesture of goodwill and the gift did not go to every single clergy person in the phonebook.
*]A few weeks ago the OP saw one of these non-Catholic clergy wearing the stole while sitting in a reserved pew at a Mass that the Bishop and other Catholic priests were con-celebrating.
So far no rules or canon laws have been violated. We can discuss our opinion of the bishop’s gift all we want, but we don’t know exactly who (of the non-Catholic clergy) he gave them to or what he said about the gift.
I think we would do best to err on the side of caution and charity when determining (out of very little information) what the bishop’s intentions were in giving the stoles as gifts.
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hilde_the_dog
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How died and made you the MOD???
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Leon_Bloy
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Leon_Bloy
Guest
The princes of the Church are the cardinals.
But I think it is an issue for bishops to confuse laypeople by handing out official stoles to Protestant ministers (at least in my not-humble opinion). The stole is the piece of liturgical wear that signifies priestly ordination. In the EF, at least, it is/was always required to be worn (even if no other liturgical garments are used) when (in addition to hearing confessions, as is still required today) one was doing something as simple as performing blessings.
A priest’s father may be one thing, but a person who claims holy orders that are not recognized by the Catholic Church to receive a symbol of priestly authority from the very person in the diocese who makes ordinations of real priests possible… ? As I lay person I see much occasion for confusion. What’s wrong with him simply giving them little statues of the new saint of his diocese? Or a fruit basket, if he wants to be “hospitable”?
If I were a college president, I wouldn’t give diplomas of my college to people from other schools who were visiting simply to take a tour of the college!
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PazzoGrande
Guest
Apparently the same person who taught you grammar.
My thread, my discussion. If you can’t be mature enough to add to it and just try to insult me with stupid sarcastic remarks (which I can rebut, I just don’t think it’s worth the time), then buzz off.
It’s people like that who turn CAF into like every other cesspool messageboard on the internet.
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PazzoGrande
Guest
I should add, the protestant minister was wearing an alb with the stole – which was exactly the same thing that the concelebrating priests wore. If she weren’t a woman, you would have thought she were a priest too.
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Stylites
Guest
I seriously don’t think there are many people who get confused over who is an ordained priest and who is not based on gifts received or gestures given. We are all a royal priesthood on some level, including the visiting clerics in this story.
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PazzoGrande
Guest
I think both you and Leon are right. There wouldn’t be many people who would be confused, but in this particular context, because it was Mass, confusion could be easy, because she really was dressed exactly like a concelebrating priest.
This parish doesn’t have a sanctuary in the usual sense. The altar by itself is slightly elevated, but it’s in the middle. The place where the protestant minister sat was in the pew but she was sitting right by the altar. It’s hard to describe, this parish has monastic seating. I’d post up pictures of the event but I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to do.
She wasn’t seated with the priests, but she was closer to the altar than any of the concelebrants and she had the exact same outfit that they did. Again, if she were a man, I would have thought her to be a priest.
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Mrs_Sally
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I think though that even if the bishop hadn’t given the stoles (several years ago), she would have been dressed the same way - in an alb and a stole. Ministers of the liturgical denominations (Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists) dress like that for their own services.
As a clergyperson going to a liturgy, she obviously thought dressing that way was appropriate. Since she wasn’t actually on the altar, no rules were violated. Maybe someone said something to her about her choice of dress; maybe not. That is between her and the bishop.
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universityprof
Guest
What? Why would you state that they are lay people? If they are ministers in their own faith they are certainly not lay people.
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PazzoGrande
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I guess that depends on what the definition of lay is. If everyone who is not a validly ordained priest is considered lay, then those ministers would be laypeople. The Catholic Church doesn’t recognise their ministries to have sacramental ordinations, unlike with our Orthodox brothers.
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YoungTradCath
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But they are laypeople. With the exception of schismatic clerics and Orthodox clerics, anyone who is not a Catholic cleric is a layperson. Anglican “bishops” and “priests,” for example, are pretenders. Their “ordinations” are utterly null ceremonies and are completely void, even though they think otherwise.
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