Non-Catholics: How do you know that the words of Jesus are true?

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icamhif said:
Like I said, I give the testimony of the Early Church Fathers (including their teachings on the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, etc.) the benefit of the doubt, in light of the historical continuity. Do I need to have 100% certainty in everything, in order to have faith? I don’t think so.
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Well, that’s great!

You are one step closer to being a Catholic–you acknowledge that you are NOT a Sola Scriptura advocate.

And you acknowledge that you get your doctrines from men, and not from the Bible. 👍
 
And you acknowledge that you get your doctrines from men, and not from the Bible.
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I will not word it that way. I get my doctrines from the Sacred Traditions, which consist of BOTH the Bible and the oral traditions (as testified by the ECFs).
 
Are the Sacred Traditions written down somewhere and is there some way to understand where and from whom they were testified to?

PR, you thought you were done but in walks Rita…

Have a blessed evening…I’ll look for your answer later.

Rita

This is what my brain is doing…lol :juggle:
 
PRmerger said:
So here’s the problem, Thor. You have just created a god that conforms to your own views, rather than conforming your views to God’s.
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You seem hung up on saying that a lot. But there’s no problem because a person’s understanding of God and God’s views and therefore why they align with a particular faith tradition is something only known by the individual and God. And it only makes sense an individual would look for a faith community or want to be in one that best fits with their own understanding and view of God.
 
PRmerger said:
It will be interesting to see how non-Catholic Christians refute the arguments presented by these folks.
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It would be interesting to consider how much of our theology must be thrown out if Paul was wrong.
 
Sy_Noe said:
And it only makes sense an individual would look for a faith community or want to be in one that best fits with their own understanding and view of God.
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Personally I want a Church that teaches God’s truth, not one that panders to my human nature.
 
spedteacherita said:
Are the Sacred Traditions written down somewhere and is there some way to understand where and from whom they were testified to?
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Well, that’s a bit like asking, “Are all scientific truths written down somehwere?”

Sacred Tradition is the life of the Church, the lens through which we view the kerygma. As such, it could no more be written down somewhere than your life in its entirety could be written down. Now, of course, some aspects of your life were recorded…(that’s analogous to Sacred Scripture), but to capture your essence, we wouldn’t only go by what’s written, yes?
PR, you thought you were done but in walks Rita…
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Have a blessed evening…I’ll look for your answer later.
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Rita
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This is what my brain is doing…lol :juggle:
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May your day today be blessed, dear Rita!
 
Sy_Noe said:
You seem hung up on saying that a lot. But there’s no problem because a person’s understanding of God and God’s views and therefore why they align with a particular faith tradition is something only known by the individual and God. And it only makes sense an individual would look for a faith community or want to be in one that best fits with their own understanding and view of God.
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Well, in one sense you are correct. We all attempt to apprehend God and grasp an understanding of His Revelation. And we look to join a community which best matches our theology.

This approach is understandable, but upon further scrutiny, we can see that it is nothing more than creating a god in our own image.

We ought to find the Church that Christ established, and then join it…and conform our views to Christ’s.

And logic dictates that if we can’t say, “I believe [A] but God said ** so I have to, regretfully, let go of [A]” then we have been worshipping at the altar of the Almight Self rather than the Almighty.

And with full disclosure, I will give an example from my own life: I would love it if divorce and re-marriage were NOT adultery. If I were Ruler of the World, I would celebrate when my friends, who had once been married to losers, found a new love and attempted marriage with this new honey.

Sadly, God has said differently.

So I don’t go and recreate a new god that says, “Divorce and re-marriage is not only NOT adultery, it’s a sacrament!”

If your god doesn’t disagree with you, you’re probably worshipping an idealized version of yourself, paraphrasing Pastor Tim Keller.**
 
Sy_Noe said:
Sure but a person in good faith and conscience can search and still end up not believing the same as you believe.
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Are you saying that all religions are the same?

If not, then how do you determine when someone is wrong, if she has used her faith and conscience and come up with a contrary view than you do?
 
PRmerger said:
Are you saying that all religions are the same?

If not, then how do you determine when someone is wrong, if she has used her faith and conscience and come up with a contrary view than you do?
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Nope didn’t say that all. In the end I just leave it between God and the individual and let God determine one’s heart. Doing otherwise is way above, or to quote Sister Simone Campbell, beyond my pay grade.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, in one sense you are correct. We all attempt to apprehend God and grasp an understanding of His Revelation. And we look to join a community which best matches our theology.

This approach is understandable, but upon further scrutiny, we can see that it is nothing more than creating a god in our own image.

We ought to find the Church that Christ established, and then join it…and conform our views to Christ’s.

And logic dictates that if we can’t say, “I believe [A] but God said ** so I have to, regretfully, let go of [A]” then we have been worshipping at the altar of the Almight Self rather than the Almighty.

And with full disclosure, I will give an example from my own life: I would love it if divorce and re-marriage were NOT adultery. If I were Ruler of the World, I would celebrate when my friends, who had once been married to losers, found a new love and attempted marriage with this new honey.

Sadly, God has said differently.

So I don’t go and recreate a new god that says, “Divorce and re-marriage is not only NOT adultery, it’s a sacrament!”

If your god doesn’t disagree with you, you’re probably worshipping an idealized version of yourself, paraphrasing Pastor Tim Keller.**

Yes I know you keep saying that. But you miss the part about how people can search for the one God established and end up with a different belief and faith than you have about it. The main part of the equation, which by your posts you seem to overlook, is the faith and belief part. You can search for what God established all you want. But it still in the end comes down to having faith and belief.
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Sy_Noe said:
Nope didn’t say that all. In the end I just leave it between God and the individual and let God determine one’s heart. Doing otherwise is way above, or to quote Sister Simone Campbell, beyond my pay grade.
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I don’t understand.

We’re not talking about people’s hearts, or people’s salvation.

We are talking about religious truths.

Do you believe that what some people profess is false, even though they believe it’s true?

For example, do you believe that when people say that God hates homosexuals, this is true because they have asserted it to be so, and believe it with all of their faith and reason?
 
PRmerger said:
I don’t understand.

We’re not talking about people’s hearts, or people’s salvation.

We are talking about religious truths.

Do you believe that what some people profess is false, even though they believe it’s true?

For example, do you believe that when people say that God hates homosexuals, this is true because they have asserted it to be so, and believe it with all of their faith and reason?
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Yes to the first. With the word, believe, being the operative word. And no I don’t believe it’s true God hates homosexuals. But then I believe God has given me the capability in the end of agreeing to disagree with others on matters of faith and belief and morals. And I have no problem exercising that God given ability.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Yes to the first.
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Excellent. 👍
With the word, believe, being the operative word. And no I don’t believe it’s true God hates homosexuals. But then I believe God has given me the capability in the end of agreeing to disagree with others on matters of faith and belief and morals. And I have no problem exercising that God given ability.
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So logically we can assert that some religions teach things which are more true than other religions.

And the reasonable person wants to be in the religion that teaches the most truth.

That’s all we’re asserting here.

You seem to be asserting that it doesn’t really matter what the religion teaches, as long as he’s come to his belief using faith and his heart is sincere, he can believe whatever he wants.

Clearly, that’s gaga, lala nonsense.

You want to search for the religion that has the most truth. Not the religion which makes you happy or good.
 
PRmerger said:
Excellent. 👍

So logically we can assert that some religions teach things which are more true than other religions.

And the reasonable person wants to be in the religion that teaches the most truth.

That’s all we’re asserting here.

You seem to be asserting that it doesn’t really matter what the religion teaches, as long as he’s come to his belief using faith and his heart is sincere, he can believe whatever he wants.

Clearly, that’s gaga, lala nonsense.

You want to search for the religion that has the most truth. Not the religion which makes you happy or good.
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