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dronald
Guest
Why would you say that this is? Why doesn’t it change?
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openmind77
Guest
If the Church told me tomorrow that God himself. actually came to them and said D. E and F, I would believe it, even if I disagreed with it.
But I don’t think anyone in the Church has claimed that yet.
But the question is, if the Christ returned tomorrow and said something that disagreed with Church dogma, would you reject Him as an imposter?
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icamhif
Guest
You are correct in that it is not ALL about experience. But that is not my position. My position that is about both intellectual inquiry and experience, working together in harmony. One can study apologetics every hour of his entire life, but he cannot find the truth without the grace of God. God can use the life of the Church to dispense His grace to the soul, so that the man can see the light and see the truth on an experiential level. Can one, for example, find the truth of Catholicism through the blessing of a Priest, a charitable act of love from a Nun, or by living the Catholic life of prayer, worship, and fasting?
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icamhif
Guest
I’m sorry about your experience with the Coptic Church. Perhaps I’m not worthy to give any spiritual advice…
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icamhif
Guest
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is dated to the mid-2nd century. All four Canonical Gospels were dated in the 1st century. So, if there are any conflicts between what IGT teaches and what the four Canonical Gospels teach, I will trust the teachings of the latter.
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icamhif
Guest
Are you implicitly saying that compared to the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church has a higher percentage (note that I didn’t say “number”) of nominals?
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dronald
Guest
No no! Not you at all.
Part of it is me, in that I’m not an extremely outgoing person when it comes to meeting new people. I get shy when trying to approach groups that I don’t know and hope they approach me.
The thing is, Mormons approach you! Likewise Evangelicals; and Evangelicals will say “Make sure you visit guest central for any questions!” or something along those lines. They then immediately get you plugged in, “Do you like soccer? We have men’s group, we have young adults groups, seniors, youth, unexpected pregnancy, what have you!”
So immediately there’s a sense of belonging. I don’t get why Catholic Church’s while maintaining their Spiritual and Theological integrity cannot be like this too.
Orthodoxy is even harder from what I’ve observed because they’re even more cultural. They stick their nationality right on their door. I’m pretty sure everyone at the Church I visited was Egyptian, and if it was a Greek Church it’d be the same.
So it’s difficult.
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icamhif
Guest
I am really shy and introverted myself, so I feel ya.
What I usually do is smile (even if I don’t feel particularly excited), be the first to say “hi” (it’s really hard, I know, but the more you try, the easier it gets) and try to get to know them as a person, not just as a member of that Church.
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spedteacherita
Guest
I’m with you guys with this. I’ve been a member of some fairly large Lutheran churches throughout my adult life and, had it not been that I was a teacher in their day schools I would not have felt comfortable or at home. The last church that I belonged to downstate in Michigan was EXTREMELY friendly (and it was an LCMS). The pastor and the members always referred to the congregation as a Forever Family and they went out of their way to meet and greet visitors. It was the first church where, when I visited the next week, someone had remembered my name and were genuinely interested in my life outside of the church.
When I moved home, I visited my home church where I had been baptized and I had no one approach me for several Sundays and, finally, when someone did and I thought maybe I’d have someone to speak with as we walked out of church, this person ran past me and started gossiping with another member about the organist who had missed a song…it was a real turn off…
While I still have my membership with the “Forever Family” one, I currently attend an LCMC which is a relatively new church which emphasizes mission work within and without the church itself…
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rcwitness
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The Sacred Scriptures are not mere “generally reliable accounts”, and although reason does support the validity of them Sacred Scripture is relied upon by an authoritative principle.
The Scriptures have been recognized and believed to be the inspired Word of God in written account.
It’s a pretty lofty claim to make that discerning which writings about Christ God intended to be received and upheld as without ANY error and divine revelation, and is unreliant on Church authority and a task most Christians could conclude on their own, or even with the help of some Church fathers.
The fact is, is that any way you look at it, the Church must make a statement of absolute certainty what constitutes their written account of divine revelation. Then, all who hear that Word can accept it for what the Church has upheld it to be.
P.S. I’m not being argumentative with anything you’ve stated. I just felt like jumping in with these thoughts, and your post seemed as good as any.
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Thorolfr
Guest
Maybe the Infancy Gospel of Thomas is reliable as well
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Orthodox churches are very cultural or national so typically people don’t just show up (a problem for these churches I believe)
I think it depends on the parish. There are plenty of protestant parishes that don’t have a big social event Sunday mornings.
For mass we go there to worship God and try not to be distracted or take from that at all. That doesn’t mean we are cold, it is just a time to be serious.
I would encourage you to try a good catholic bible study, men’s group, or other event at a good parish near you and I think you may have a different, more familiar experience.
That said, my parish, once I got plugged in, is pretty much the place where I meet my weekly hug quota! Some of the most friendly, fun, on fire for the Lord, people I have ever met.
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icamhif
Guest
I think you have a good point. I cannot conclude by scholarly methods alone that the Scriptures are inerrant (I don’t believe in Scriptural inerrency, anyway), nor that the New Testament canon is EXACTLY 27 books (no more, no less.)The Sacred Scriptures are not mere “generally reliable accounts”, and although reason does support the validity of them Sacred Scripture is relied upon by an authoritative principle.
The Scriptures have been recognized and believed to be the inspired Word of God in written account.
It’s a pretty lofty claim to make that discerning which writings about Christ God intended to be received and upheld as without ANY error and divine revelation, and is unreliant on Church authority and a task most Christians could conclude on their own, or even with the help of some Church fathers.
The fact is, is that any way you look at it, the Church must make a statement of absolute certainty what constitutes their written account of divine revelation. Then, all who hear that Word can accept it for what the Church has upheld it to be.
P.S. I’m not being argumentative with anything you’ve stated. I just felt like jumping in with these thoughts, and your post seemed as good as any.
However, I can conclude by scholarly methods that it’s reasonable to believe that Christ Resurrected. And if Christ Resurrected, then as far as I’m concerned, He is the most reliable Person to trust about the answers to life after death. I can then trust Him when He said that the Scriptures are inspired (I think that all four Gospels attest to Him saying this, so it passes the multiple-attestation test. In any case, it’s consistent with the fact that Jesus was a devout Jew.)
Of course, this begs the question of which Scriptures are inspired, to which, other than Old Testament passages Jesus quoted, I am okay to admit that I have no answer other than tradition. However, I believe that one can, with honesty and logical consistency, believe in the basic tenets of Christianity just merely on the notion that the Gospels are reliable. This would throw out all the adherents to strict Biblical inerrency, but it would not necessarily throw out all of Protestantism.
Also, when the shoe goes on the other foot and the question is asked how we know that the Church is infallible, I hear some Catholics resort to the same scholarly methods to show that Jesus founded an infallible Church, based on just one or two passages in Matthew that are not attested in any other Gospel (see this thread). Thus, the argument for an infallible Church fails the test of multiple attestation and outside sources. So, you can’t pit critical scholarship against Protestants if it shoots you on the foot.
I appreciate your kindness, rcwitness. A few others are not so friendly.
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icamhif
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There is a Greek Orthodox parish I’ve been going to for months. Yes, most of the members are either Greek, Arab, Palestinian, or otherwise Middle-Eastern or Eastern-European. But many of them are also converts. I felt very welcome by the people there.
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rcwitness
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These opinions seem highly heterodox considering the faiths you are discerning.
I appreciate you think this!
Sorry I don’t have much time to address your other comments in your post.
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SAVINGRACE
Guest
In the video below Cardinal Arinze addresses the reasons we attend Mass, we do not come to Mass to enjoy, socialise, be entertained or look at each other.
After Mass perhaps outside, we often serve cake/biscuits/scones and drinks. People hang around for half an hour or so because it is Sunday and most families have family activities to attend to. Become part of the parish, involve in it’s activities, it’s very social in my parish however Mass is not a time for socialising it is a time for worshipping Christ. Some Catholics only attend Mass on Sundays, that is their only attendance at the Church, I encourage them to volunteer to be on the parish community, Bible study or other church groups. Be a part of the parish life. I did and am loving it.
Forward the video to 2:57 for the relevant part. Although I personally love Cardinal Arinze and think most of what he says is relevant.
youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s
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dronald
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I went to a Greek festival two years ago which was held next to a Greek Orthodox Church. I loved the art, but I’m going to be honest and say that the immense amount of icons scared me away.
This is not an affront to the Greek Orthodox, nor meant to be offensive or something I’m trying to debate, but in my eyes it seemed idolatrous. I know, I know, I’m sorry. I tried to get by it but it’s tough.
Maybe I’ll try again.
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icamhif
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Heterodox? I thought that you don’t have to believe in Biblical inerrency in order to be Catholic. I thought that you only have to believe that the Bible is inspired.
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dronald
Guest
I watched the whole thingIn the video below Cardinal Arinze addresses the reasons we attend Mass, we do not come to Mass to enjoy, socialise, be entertained or look at each other.
After Mass perhaps outside, we often serve cake/biscuits/scones and drinks. People hang around for half an hour or so because it is Sunday and most families have family activities to attend to. Are you part of the parish, involved in it’s activities, it’s very social in my parish however Mass is not a time for socialising it is a time for worshipping Christ.
Forward the video to 2:57 for the relevant part. Although I personally love Cardinal Arinze and think most of what he says is relevant.
youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s
It seems the entire context of what he was saying had to do with “Dance” until he did mention about people clapping and whatnot. But it didn’t really speak to the welcoming feeling we’ve been talking about.
However, later he began speaking about music. I vehemently disagree about his taste in music as it relates to worship. Latin Culture should be different from African culture which should be different from American culture. I know the CC doesn’t want to adapt and feels it shouldn’t have to, but it’s only adapting to the culture without giving up any Theology. What do you think David had in mind when he wrote:
Psalm 150:1 Praise the LORD! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! { Hebrew b expanse b ( compare Genesis 1: 6-8 ) }
2 Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness!
3 Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp!
4 Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!
5 Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD! Praise the LORD!
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Coco82
Guest
Whereas I don’t expect to “socialize” during Mass as someone said, like I wouldn’t expect to socialize during any service, I do agree there is a certain coldness about the Church. I’d like to feel welcomed and not a faceless name in a crowd. I’d like to feel like I have a relationship with the Church members/Father in case I have an issue I want to discuss (not issue w/them, just in general).
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