Non-Catholics: How do you know that the words of Jesus are true?

[Contarini]

Edwin,

the above aside, if not an organization what do YOU think GOD used…?

Mary.

Since I still don’t know for sure what you mean by “organization,” it may be that I think God did use an organization. I just wouldn’t start out by asking “what organization did God use?”

God used a community of people, obviously. It may be that what you mean by “organization” is no different than what I mean by “community.”

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I’m confused, are you suggesting that the Bible isn’t the Word of God?

Of course she isn’t, and nothing she said gave you any excuse for such a silly question.

The question remains, though I would reword it because I think the phrase “how do you know” takes us down philosophical rabbit trails:

What are your reasons for believing that the Bible is the Word of God?

Edwin

 

[benjohnson]

What are your reasons for believing that the Bible is the Word of God?

Edwin

For me, personally, several factors:

The Bible is uniquly self-referential even though it was composed over thousands of years by different authors in different cultures and languages.

The witnesses of the Gospel mostly died horrid deaths rather than recant, and many wiriness who received the Gospels and came to faith also died without recanting in the ensuing years.

The Bible is unique in that it relies on the wavering faith of the reader to comprehend and appreicate (my opinion) - most religious texts are much more concrete.

 

[benhur]

I truly believe faithful and faith-filled Catholics can believe they know the truth. But it takes faith to do that. Without faith and belief in God, in the NT, in the CC, in the ECFs, in CC interpretations of Scripture, of Herself and of the ECF’s, I believe as Tom said that there’s a huge difference between believing and actually knowing. That’s why it’s called faith. And the best any of us humans with finite understanding can do, I believe, is to walk our journeys by faith and our consciences, open to growing in understanding of an infinite God as we seek whatever the ultimate truth turns out to be. And in faith to trust in God’s mercy and capability to understand our hearts, our minds and our souls. But I’d be remiss not to say that I also am one who is more than fine with not thinking I need to know everything in black and white. I’m perfectly fine with much grey. Anyway I hope that helps you better understand my DNA and how I tick even though you may well disagree. And if need be, I am okay with having to agree to disagree on what are essentially matters of faith. May God bless us all as we strive to the best of our limited human understandings to walk in faith closer to. Peace.

Hi Sy.

There might be a conundrum with one apostle saying, “Little children you know all things and have an unction from the Holy Ghost”. Then another apostle says ,“We see thru a glass darkly now, but then face to face.”

So I will testify what faith, what evidences have acquired for me, and what others have also testified. A knowledge, a knowing for certainty, that you know that you know that you know you have entered life from death, that you have been born again, that you are a new creature in Christ and behold all things, all things are new! And that by a free gift, of faith, to really believe what you once could not and would not.

Of course I am preaching to the choir but I felt that needed to be said before we venture of into other matters of faith that are more dependent on maturity, upbringing, even rational speculation on things that we see darkly thru a glass by design and dispensation.

Blessings

 

[JustaServant]

I’m confused, are you suggesting that the Bible isn’t the Word of God?

How did you get this ^^^^^^^^^^

out of this:

where do you believe the Bible came from? Who did God use to present His Word to the world?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Sy Noe and PRmerger,

I only caught the tailend of your conversation, but fwiw I find it interesting. I had a professor once … well I probably can’t do justice to it, but the bottom line was that she stated quite positively that people in times past knew (not thought they knew or believed) that the world is flat.

Glad you found it intersting, Peter. What! The world isn’t flat? :bigyikes: Peace.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Hi Sy.

There might be a conundrum with one apostle saying, “Little children you know all things and have an unction from the Holy Ghost”. Then another apostle says ,“We see thru a glass darkly now, but then face to face.”

So I will testify what faith, what evidences have acquired for me, and what others have also testified. A knowledge, a knowing for certainty, that you know that you know that you know you have entered life from death, that you have been born again, that you are a new creature in Christ and behold all things, all things are new! And that by a free gift, of faith, to really believe what you once could not and would not.

Of course I am preaching to the choir but I felt that needed to be said before we venture of into other matters of faith that are more dependent on maturity, upbringing, even rational speculation on things that we see darkly thru a glass by design and dispensation.

Blessings

Thanks Ben and blessings backatcha,

 

[Sy_Noe]

How did you get this ^^^^^^^^^^

out of this:

I certainly am not the one to speak for jimboky. But I’m just wondering if he means the Bible is God’s Word for all. Not something exclusive to one organization or community that happened at the time to be the one that compiled it.

 

[benhur]

I know of no one passage that would prove the Bible, however taken in total it would be difficult to form any other conclusion. Go to any Christian Book store, Catholic, Baptist, or many others and you will find volumes on the subject,

I do wish you well in your search, and I suggest you be open to the idea that Jesus is real.

Your Brother in Christ, Jimboky

Welcome Jb.(I’d give you flowers too but PR already did that.)

See you are getting a lot of questions about "proving’’ but your post was easily understood and fits the thread topic. Nevertheless happy postings.

 

[benhur]

Sy Noe and PRmerger,

I only caught the tailend of your conversation, but fwiw I find it interesting. I had a professor once … well I probably can’t do justice to it, but the bottom line was that she stated quite positively that people in times past knew (not thought they knew or believed) that the world is flat.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? That is why we need a new one, and not just a new heart but new eyes and a new mind to go with it all.

 

[benhur]

If you want to use the term “organization,” then you need to define it and explain why you think it had to be an “organization” that God used.

Edwin

Why surely she meant the Body of Christ !? Good request unfortunately necessary.

 

[Abu]

benjohnson #697
The witnesses of the Gospel mostly died horrid deaths rather than recant, and many wiriness who received the Gospels and came to faith also died without recanting in the ensuing years.

The Bible is unique in that it relies on the wavering faith of the reader to comprehend and appreicate (my opinion)

If that is how you know that the words of Jesus are true, how is it that you do not believe in His mandate in forming His Church which is known as the Catholic Church? First used by St Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrneans, A.D. 107, “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” It is from the Greek katholike meaning “general” or “universal”. Within 90 years it meant also “orthodox” or faithful to the teachings of Christ. (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday, 1975, p 217).

Unequivocally declared by the Christ:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve]

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

‘Christ Himself emphasized: “The truth shall set you free” (Jn 8:32), and St Paul: “the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1Tim 3:15).

The books that actually are declared the inspired Word of God were authorized by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563) – 46 books in the Old Testament, 27 books in the New Testament – clearly showing the authority of Christ’s Church.

The “comprehension and appreciation” that has resulted in thousands of differing sects, all teaching something different, illustrates the reality of the unwavering truth in Christ’s Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

If you want to use the term “organization,” then you need to define it and explain why you think it had to be an “organization” that God used.

Edwin

drily: it’s the usual understanding of the word, Contarini.

If we’re going to play that game I’ll start with your latest post:

Anything can fit that category if you want it to.

If you want to imitate 19th-century anti-Catholic Protestants, who misused some Catholic casuists to argue that Catholics didn’t think lying was wrong, then go ahead. But you aren’t contributing to the glory of God or the common good by doing so.

Edwin

If you want to use the word “category” then you’ll need to define it and explain why you think anything can fit into one.

And if you want to use the word “imitate” then you’ll need to define it and explain why you think someone would want to do this with 19th century anti-Catholic Protestants.

Or, we can stop with the nonsensical demand for definitions of words that are generally understood to mean what they generally mean.

 

[Contarini]

drily: it’s the usual understanding of the word, Contarini.

If we’re going to play that game I’ll start with your latest post:

If you want to use the word “category” then you’ll need to define it and explain why you think anything can fit into one.

And if you want to use the word “imitate” then you’ll need to define it and explain why you think someone would want to do this with 19th century anti-Catholic Protestants.

Or, we can stop with the nonsensical demand for definitions of words that are generally understood to mean what they generally mean.

Are you in any doubt as to what I meant by those words? If you aren’t, then you are playing a cynical game to dodge my serious question.

I am in doubt as to what exactly counts as an “organization” in this context.

You seem quite certain that the interpretation of Scripture must have been entrusted to an “organization,” and the only question is which one. This does not seem self-evident to me at all. I hoped that more clarity might emerge from a definition of “organization,” but apparently you don’t want to do that.

Edwin

 

[Abu]

Contarini #708
You seem quite certain that the interpretation of Scripture must have been entrusted to an “organization,” and the only question is which one. This does not seem self-evident to me at all.

How very strange!

As an “organization” = an organized structure for arranging or classifying/the persons (or committees or departments etc.) who make up a body for the purpose of administering something (Wordweb) – that meaning rather well exemplifies the formation of His Catholic Church by the Christ which encompasses:

1. the structural Church which He established with St Peter as His Chief Vicar and the other eleven Apostles
2. being in charge of (administering) teaching, sanctifying and ruling.

As the Christ established only one all-encompassing Catholic Church for the world and She declared what books authentically must be in the Bible, and no others as the Word of God, that ought to be self-evident for those who know their history and the life of the Christ.

 

[benhur]

The “comprehension and appreciation” that has resulted in thousands of differing sects, all teaching something different, illustrates the reality of the unwavering truth in Christ’s Catholic Church.

Yes. All are absolved on judgement day from rejecting any reformation truth rendering because of this stumbling block of 30,000 sects.

Indeed a point of truth helping rejection but not born of wisdom.

The beauty and grace and attraction of Christ, for He is both Truth and Wisdom in Love

Blessings Abu

 

[Sy_Noe]

PRmerger, I know you’re very busy like the rest of us but we await your answer to Edwin. It’s a very important question and it has been more than 2 mins since it was first asked. I just want to assure you saw his question. Seriously though I look forward to following yours and Edwin’s discussion about this and that can’t happen until you answer. This is CAF afterall.

 

[PRmerger]

Are you in any doubt as to what I meant by those words? If you aren’t, then you are playing a cynical game to dodge my serious question.

I am in doubt as to what exactly counts as an “organization” in this context.

You seem quite certain that the interpretation of Scripture must have been entrusted to an “organization,” and the only question is which one. This does not seem self-evident to me at all. I hoped that more clarity might emerge from a definition of “organization,” but apparently you don’t want to do that.

Edwin

sigh.

I don’t wish to tussle with you on this subject.

I will retract my use of the word “organization” and simply ask: how did God come to present the Bible to His people? What is the process by which this book came to be?

 

[Contarini]

How very strange!

As an “organization” = an organized structure for arranging or classifying/the persons (or committees or departments etc.) who make up a body for the purpose of administering something (Wordweb) – that meaning rather well exemplifies the formation of His Catholic Church by the Christ which encompasses:

1. the structural Church which He established with St Peter as His Chief Vicar and the other eleven Apostles
2. being in charge of (administering) teaching, sanctifying and ruling.

As the Christ established only one all-encompassing Catholic Church for the world and She declared what books authentically must be in the Bible, and no others as the Word of God, that ought to be self-evident for those who know their history and the life of the Christ.

The process of discerning which books were inspired was a pretty chaotic one. Yes, there were local councils that made decisions. But a lot of it, especially early on, was a matter of individual churches making decisions based on their own traditions, and coordinating through letters exchanged among bishops. I’m fine with calling that “organization,” but I highlight the term because it can imply something highly formal and centralized such as the present-day RCC or Protestant denominations such as the UMC.

Edwin

 

[Abu]

Contarini #712
The process of discerning which books were inspired was a pretty chaotic one.

Not anything as “chaotic” as the idea that Luther’s decision could substitute for papal authority to produce thousands of differing sects trying to substitute for Christ’s Catholic Church. The reality is that ALL of these authoritative synod definitions on the books in the Bible were the same, culminating in the defined Canon of the Council of Trent.

The books that actually are declared the inspired Word of God were authorized by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563) – 46 books in the Old Testament, 27 books in the New Testament – clearly showing the authority of Christ’s Church.

No one and no sect can substitute for the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, established clearly by the Christ, with a Magisterium given us by Christ and teaching infallibly on only male priests, and on every important issue of faith and morals.