non Catholics reply please

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santaro75

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Of course Jesus was going to found a church. One church that would carry on his salvific ministry and message. He would want a place where people can come home for healing. A place where they can have their sins forgiven, recieve Gods love, spirit and comfort. And also a place where they can recieve him, not only mentally and spiritually but physically. A church that is visible and universally known.

OK, I guess you can probably tell that i am Catholic. But I am only because the Catholic church has the most compelling case. So i want to hear from my Non Catholic christian family which church is Christs church on earth. Which one is his Vicar for all ages?
 
<< So i want to hear from my Non Catholic christian family which church is Christs church on earth. Which one is his Vicar for all ages? >>

The Holy Spirit? There is no visible organization? 😃

What’s with this non-Catholic baiting? Let them find this forum and post questions on their own. You’re just gonna have to wait. :cool: 😦 :mad: 😛 :eek: :confused:

Phil P
 
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santaro75:
Of course Jesus was going to found a church. One church that would carry on his salvific ministry and message. He would want a place where people can come home for healing. A place where they can have their sins forgiven, recieve Gods love, spirit and comfort. And also a place where they can recieve him, not only mentally and spiritually but physically. A church that is visible and universally known.

OK, I guess you can probably tell that i am Catholic. But I am only because the Catholic church has the most compelling case. So i want to hear from my Non Catholic christian family which church is Christs church on earth. Which one is his Vicar for all ages?
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I think that it is important for you to define “Church” first. Your statements here are full of preunderstandings that would keep true dialogue from happening.

Michael
 
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santaro75:
Of course Jesus was going to found a church. One church that would carry on his salvific ministry and message. He would want a place where people can come home for healing. A place where they can have their sins forgiven, recieve Gods love, spirit and comfort. And also a place where they can recieve him, not only mentally and spiritually but physically. A church that is visible and universally known.

OK, I guess you can probably tell that i am Catholic. But I am only because the Catholic church has the most compelling case. So i want to hear from my Non Catholic christian family which church is Christs church on earth. Which one is his Vicar for all ages?
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I think Christ would have said the only church of any importance is the one you keep in your heart. Everything else is simply the machinations and constructions of fallable people.
 
I guess i am not totally certain of my definition of “church” I’ll take a stab. My def of church is the people who are a part of a unified body of worshiping Christ and try faithfully to follow his teaching. I think there has to be organization for it to stay unified. And there have to be fully devoted leaders/teachers/pastors whose sole purpose is the service to the church and not for personal profit. I guess I think it is a universally recognizable institution or denomination clearly recognizable as a christian congregational body.

My question is, what church is the Christs church if not the Catholic church?

Who leads it?

There has to be a human head right? Even the Bible can’t do much without a person.

I hear a lot of why the catholic church’s claims are not correct, but I haven’t heard much about which church is correct and why?

I am not trying to bate, I guess i want to open a dialogue. I hope i am not coming off as being on the attack.
 
I guess i am not totally certain of my definition of “church” I’ll take a stab. My def of church is the people who are a part of a unified body of worshiping Christ and try faithfully to follow his teaching.
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I think that his is reasonable.
I think there has to be organization for it to stay unified.
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Not too unreasonable. But let me flesh out a little more of your preunderstanding. Does this organization have to be one, or can it be many?

If one, what are the requirements of belonging to this organization? Most importantly, is the organization equated with the first part of your definition? In other words, can someone be a part of those who love Christ and try to faithfully follow his teaching and not be a part of the one organization? If not, justify. If so, I think that you are faithfully following the first part of your definition.
And there have to be fully devoted leaders/teachers/pastors whose sole purpose is the service to the church and not for personal profit. I guess I think it is a universally recognizable institution or denomination clearly recognizable as a christian congregational body.
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Why does it have to be a univerally recognized institution?
My question is, what church is the Christs church if not the Catholic church?
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You need to answer these other questions first.
Who leads it?
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Christ is the head of the body.
There has to be a human head right?
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Christ is the only one who is said to be the head. Why would you suppose that their has to be one human head?
Even the Bible can’t do much without a person.
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Please explain.
I am not trying to bate, I guess i want to open a dialogue. I hope i am not coming off as being on the attack.
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You sound sincere to me.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
I think that it is important for you to define “Church” first. Your statements here are full of preunderstandings that would keep true dialogue from happening. Michael
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Every Protestant has his own definition which, naturally, accomodates his own denomination.😛

Christ defined the Church AS HIMSELF (Acts 9:1-5).

The Church is the People of God, united in one body, holding one Faith, under the leadership of the Chief Apostle, Peter, and his successors. It is the “household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tm 3:15). The Church is the New Israel (Gal 6:16, Eph 2:11-13, Romans 9:6-8), the House of Jacob (Luke 1:32-33), the Body of Christ (Col 1:15-18, 1:24; 2:19; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4-7), the Bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-33; 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 21:9-14, 22:17). And more!

The manifold wisdom of God is made known through the Church (Eph 3:8-11).

The Church is the means by which the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles is made known to the world – that Faith which was once for all handed down to the saints – to the People of God united in one body – i.e., to the Church (Jude 3). Jesus didn’t leave us a book when he returned to heaven: he left us a Church – the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Church had written what later became the NT by about the time she was 70 or so and canonized the writings of the OT and the NT and produced the Bible when she was nearly 400 years old.

The powers of death have not prevailed against her (Mt 16:18-19), and never will. The Church will endure until the end of time, with Christ as her constant companion (Mt 28:20) and the Holy Spirit to guide her (John 14:16-18, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-15).

JMJ Jay
 
The Peace of the Risen Lord with you all,

If the body of Christ was a plate that was then shattered, I think we would each get a piece. Some are bigger and some are smaller but all are necessary to form the Spiritual Body of Believers.

As I have reflected long this Advent season I am coming to the overwhelming conclusion that for any Christian tradition or reformation to claim the wholeness of the Spiritual Body of Christ, our Lord is a farce. We each have our little specialties (Catholicism its historical prominence and rich tradition, Orthodoxy’s criticism of Roman innovations and a counter claim to it’s rich tradition and Protestants their focus on the only source which they can claim as authoritative in the midst of all the controversies over the “traditions”) but ultimately we all grasp at a totality which is unachievable without resting, as John said, in love that is the father.

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. - 1Jo 3:14

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
By there having to be an organized body, I mean that it’s members should be inline with eachothers message and not opposed to eachother otherwise we have a dysfunctional family. All families have their feuds but we must have a way to have a final judgement and all must agree to abide by what is decided. As humans we will always disagree and fight but the family must above all stay together so there needs to be a structure that allows for that to happen. think that God loves that we all love him. But all fathers hate to see their children fight. And being that Jesus and our creater are one in the same I think that he knew we are a group that disagrees a lot and therefore would want some kind of organized way of settling disputes and keeping this bag of oddballs together.

A universally recognized institution because of the mission of the message is to be spread throughout the world. And we all know that people come when they are called. And when they are called they should know exactly where to go. Not say, OK i want christ in my life, let me look at hte yellow pages and pick from one of the 3 thousand denominations of christian churches. OK for example if a catholic prays he makes the sign of the cross. Everyone recognizes that and knows he follows jesus. Others don’t do that, they just close their eyes and from afar you don’t know whether they are praying to allah, buddha, themselves, pagan gods or whoever. A universally recognizable actions, customs make for an efficient evangilism i think.

As for every church needs a human head. God speaks through people. The bible cannot stand up and preach. A person must read it then preach. Also three people can read the bible and get three different messages. There for a person must be a voice for the unified body of christ. If Christ was physically here on Earth things would be so much easier but then we wouldn’t need faith. So his church needs someone that can stand in and that christ can speak through for his church while he is physically away. Especially when new issues come up like who knows internet stuff or birth control pills, fetal stem cell research. things that Paul didn’t write about cuz they didnt’ exist back then. We can’t go having schisms in his church everytime something comes up.

Ok, thanks for making me clarify, it makes me examine my own position. But no one has yet to answer which church? But let me pose another question. If you were Christ and needed to establish a church to spread your word…How would you do it? How would you structure it so that it can change or adapt to the needs of the ages? How would you insure that it stayed unified?
 
Hello All, I hope you are all well.

The biblical name of the true Church is “the Church of God.” God names things as they are. The name is clearly stated in both singular and plural form in twelve different places in the New Testament–including Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2: 10:32; 11:16; 2 Corinthians 1:1. To find the rest of the places God names His Church simply get out your handy dandy concordance and look up the word “church” and “churchs”.

The Curch of God is the body of Christ of which He is the Head, Colossians 1:18, 24. That is part of the biblical definition of the Church.

The Church is also described as the affianced Bride of Christ, 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:22-32. She will be protected in the soon coming tribulation, (there is no rapture), Revelation 12:14-16, if there were a rapture off to heaven the earth wouldn’t to swallow the water to protect them. Her offspring that Satan will come after in Verse 17 are those who were not zealous for God, see Revelation 3:14-16.

The word translated to the English “church” is the Greek “ekklesia” Strongs 1577 Gr. This word is made up of two root words the first being, “kaleo” St. 2564 Gr. this word means: (to call, invite, summon. The authority of the Speaker dictates the nature of the calling.) The other word is “ek” St. 1537 Gr. meaning: (of, out of; from, away from) it has to do with one being seperated out of, and away from that in which he or she was originally. The essance of the word is that when God calls one, He calls them out of this world to be a part of His Church, His Begotten Family. see Romans 8:14-17

So when you see that information, the Church of God could be said “the Called of God”. God has always called His servants, even Abraham, Genesis 12 - the father of the faithful. Jesus said that no one could come to Him except the Father call them to Christ, John 6:44. Then if we respond in a positive way, Christ will choose us to be His disciple, John 15:16, and to reveal the Father to us, Christ being the only Way to the Father, John 14:6. For many are called but few are chosen, Matthew 22:14.

At any rate that is the biblical definition of the true Church, it also has a definition of a great false church mentioned in Revelation 17:1-6, and is called Jezebel in chapter 2:20-23.

Those are the biblical definitions.

Y’all have a good day. GED
 
Hello again,

One thing I forgot to mention, though the Scrpiture I referanced pertains to it, Romans 8:14-17, - is that only those who actually have Gods Holy Spirit are part of His Church, Romans 8:9, or the body of Christ.

Thanks, GED
 
Sounds like that verse in rev is talking about a christian persecuting body that claims to be God. could it be the roman emperor who was a self proclaimed God and persecuted the christians?

Thanks for your definition of Church. Sounds right. But which church on earth is this church that you are speaking of? I agree that jesus is the head but doesn’t he need a person on earth to speak through? Does he speak without people?
 
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santaro75:
Thanks for your definition of Church. Sounds right. But which church on earth is this church that you are speaking of? I agree that jesus is the head but doesn’t he need a person on earth to speak through? Does he speak without people?
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Peace be with you Santaro75,

Speaking as a Protestant, I would suggest that the Church, as an institution, is unnecessary but can at times be convenient. I would also suggest that Jesus Christ doesn’t need a figurehead since he sent us each a Comforter:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter. that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Joh 14:16-18

I think the greatest weakness with us is ignorance not unity. Unity in error is still error. We need to “put on Christ” and be the patient, generous and loving brothers we are told the spiritual gifts would bring about within us. These are things no institution can give us but that we must open up to through the gifts of the spirit.

Remember:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is* the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.* - Mat 7:13-14

We can’t honestly expect to all make it.

Peace.
 
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chrisb:
The Peace of the Risen Lord with you all,

If the body of Christ was a plate that was then shattered, I think we would each get a piece. Some are bigger and some are smaller but all are necessary to form the Spiritual Body of Believers.

As I have reflected long this Advent season I am coming to the overwhelming conclusion that for any Christian tradition or reformation to claim the wholeness of the Spiritual Body of Christ, our Lord is a farce. We each have our little specialties (Catholicism its historical prominence and rich tradition, Orthodoxy’s criticism of Roman innovations and a counter claim to it’s rich tradition and Protestants their focus on the only source which they can claim as authoritative in the midst of all the controversies over the “traditions”) but ultimately we all grasp at a totality which is unachievable without resting, as John said, in love that is the father.

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. - 1Jo 3:14

Peace, Love and Blessings,
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Great post dear Chris! 👍
 
Hello all,

While I agree, that Jesus Christ needs no man to do His Work, the biblical example has always been that He has used human instruments, Moses over the children of Israel, King David over the nation of Israel, Peter over those of the circumcision, James over the Jerusalem Chruch when Peter was gone, Paul over the work to the Gentiles, John over the Church at the end of the 1st century. Church government is from the top down, The Father is the Head of Christ, 1 Corinthians 11:3, Christ is the Head of the Church, Clossians 1:18, which is the body and the body many members individually that God has set offices of authority in, 1 Corinthians 12:27-28. If there is no authority there is no order, God says let all things be done decently and in order, 1 Corinthians 14:40.

As to your question Santaro 75, What Church is God Working through? Jesus Christ said at the end of the age The True gospel of the Kingdom of God would be preached to all nations as a witness, and then the end would come, Matthew 24:14. By saying that, “THIS gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in all world …” would imply that what was being preached until the time of the end throughout the world was not the same gospel that He taught. The gospel of the Kingdom of God is the good news of the coming rule of Jesus Christ on the earth to put an end to war, poverty, disease, perversion, oppression, all of the evils that we have been suffering through all this time. See Isaiah 11:1-10. The Church that preaches powerfully that we are not going to heaven but rather Jesus Christ is returning to set up the Fathers Kingdom, and put an end to Satans reign of terror, and greed, and vanity, murder, and war, and on and on it goes, that is the Church He is doing His Work through.

Just look around if you want it, you will find it, if it is Gods Will that is.

I hope this was helpful, take care, GED
 
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chrisb:
Peace be with you Santaro75,

Speaking as a Protestant, I would suggest that the Church, as an institution, is unnecessary but can at times be convenient. I would also suggest that Jesus Christ doesn’t need a figurehead since he sent us each a Comforter
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Another “cafeteria” Christian! One of those who want to pick and choose what they want to believe and who call themselves “Jesus’ followers”! So now, according to Protestants the Church “which is unnecessary”, “can be convenient” at times! My, my! What arrogance, pride and conceit! Do Protestants even believe that Jesus founded a Church at all?? I don’t think so. They’re too busy interpreting the Bible anyway they like and going by “sola scriptura” only. They’re always accusing us of having “traditions of men” when that is exactly what “the Bible only” theory is, a tradition of men that distorts the true role of the Bible, nullifies the word of God and strips the authority from the Church that Jesus founded!
 
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Booklover:
Another “cafeteria” Christian! One of those who want to pick and choose what they want to believe and who call themselves “Jesus’ followers”! So now, according to Protestants the Church “which is unnecessary”, “can be convenient” at times! My, my! What arrogance, pride and conceit! Do Protestants even believe that Jesus founded a Church at all?? I don’t think so. They’re too busy interpreting the Bible anyway they like and going by “sola scriptura” only. They’re always accusing us of having “traditions of men” when that is exactly what “the Bible only” theory is, a tradition of men that distorts the true role of the Bible, nullifies the word of God and strips the authority from the Church that Jesus founded!
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Your own arrogance, pride and conceit shine through - friend. Be careful your anger doesn’t get the best of you. And, do not judge lest yourself be judged of the same.

Peace…
 
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