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ahimsaman72
Guest
Don’t we all need a dose of reality check?
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ahimsaman72
Guest
And your point???
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Booklover
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**You’ve got it wrong my Friend! It’s not my pride, arrogance or conceit. I don’t “choose” what I believe or not believe. I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches because IT’S THE CHURCH Our Lord Jesus Christ founded for all mankind. It has been guided and protected by the Holy Spirit from the beginning and it’s THE ONLY ONE that has the authority to teach in Jesus’ name! **
I love the Church and defend it, that’s all!
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Tlaloc
Guest
My point is that you were correct, the poster had obviously already decided he was fit to cast judgements on others, despite that being a no-no according to the faith he espouses.
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santaro75
Guest
Ok bring it back boys. Lets avoid personal insults. Lets have the spirit of growth discovery and mutual respect in this thread. You see even in this thread you need a person or moderator to keep it from veering outa control!
Christ said …I will build my church. OK lets take the interpretation of Kephah, petros whatever out of the statement and just look at the last part. “…I will build my church” His church. What would it look like? Which is it?
sola script guys… I am clear that your definition of church is there is no physical church. It is a common unity in our faith. Well, for the sake of evangelizing, which can be similar to gaining market share in the business world, shouldn’t you have brand recognition.
But anyway what was Jesus talking about anyway when he said “build my church”? AND what, I truly do not know this, what was the usage of the word “church” back then?
To us these nuances aren’t too big a deal. But to people who never heard the message don’t you think it would be confusing if you have christian churches of many different titles and as many doctrines and claims to being the way and the light to choose from?
Christ said …I will build my church. OK lets take the interpretation of Kephah, petros whatever out of the statement and just look at the last part. “…I will build my church” His church. What would it look like? Which is it?
sola script guys… I am clear that your definition of church is there is no physical church. It is a common unity in our faith. Well, for the sake of evangelizing, which can be similar to gaining market share in the business world, shouldn’t you have brand recognition.
But anyway what was Jesus talking about anyway when he said “build my church”? AND what, I truly do not know this, what was the usage of the word “church” back then?
To us these nuances aren’t too big a deal. But to people who never heard the message don’t you think it would be confusing if you have christian churches of many different titles and as many doctrines and claims to being the way and the light to choose from?
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chrisb
Guest
Another “cafeteria” Christian! One of those who want to pick and choose what they want to believe and who call themselves “Jesus’ followers”! So now, according to Protestants the Church “which is unnecessary”, “can be convenient” at times! My, my! What arrogance, pride and conceit! Do Protestants even believe that Jesus founded a Church at all?? I don’t think so. They’re too busy interpreting the Bible anyway they like and going by “sola scriptura” only. They’re always accusing us of having “traditions of men” when that is exactly what “the Bible only” theory is, a tradition of men that distorts the true role of the Bible, nullifies the word of God and strips the authority from the Church that Jesus founded!
Peace be with you Booklover,
If you mean “cafeteria” Christian as one who attempts to discern cultural and arbitrarily traditions from the direct inspired Word of God, then I humbly except the term gladly.
With regard to your misquoting me about the “Church” being unnecessary, let me correct you. I stated clearly that I feel that the “institution” of the earthly Church is unnecessary. Such statements don’t come from pride, arrogance or conceit but from fear of the Lord and concern that cultural and political intrigues of their day influenced and distracted the early Church of Christ as it struggled with temporal powers and spiritual responsibilities. The Classic Protestant proclamation isn’t from pride, arrogance and conceit but from deep concern that those guiding the “institutional” Church were in themselves not guided by the Holy Spirit and those endangered all who practiced their traditions and obeyed their commandments. Surely, those who are faith filled followers of the Catholic Church find this offensive but I feel it is disingenuous to assume that Protestants interpret Scripture without valid hermeneutics. Is it possible to error? Absolutely but at least it’s an error which I make for myself attempting to rely on the good guidance of the Holy Spirit and the inspired Word of God.
To argue the consistent guidance of the Catholic Church is problematic as one delves into history. Does that exclude Catholics from Salvation? I don’t think so but current, though I am in RCIA to learn more about the Catholic Church I have grown more cynical that the Catholic Church and its Bishops and Priests are guided any more faithfully than the Pastor at the BaptistChurch I also attend. Where morals and ethics are similar, I rejoice but walking in the parish hall of the Catholic Church I’ve realized membership is split down Conservative and Liberal lines.
So, ultimately I find Catholics rely on Faith, Sacraments and Prayer to bring Salvation to them and strengthen them in righteousness and Protestants use Faith, Bible Study and Prayer to do the very same thing. Theologically I have my own issues with both.
Peace.
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Glenamyaglen
Guest
Quote:
Christ said …I will build my church. OK lets take the interpretation of Kephah, petros whatever out of the statement and just look at the last part. “…I will build my church” His church. What would it look like? Which is it?
Hello Santaro,
The Church that Christ built looks exactly like the Church described in the Book af Acts, they keep the Sabbath as Christ and the original apostles did, the Holy Days, as He and they did. It has the same form of Chruch government as it then etc… its called True Apostolic Chrostianity, not what became known as Apostolic Christianity 2 or 3 hundred years later, but real Christianity as described in Gods Word, again primarily in the Book of Acts.
I hope this helps, GED
Christ said …I will build my church. OK lets take the interpretation of Kephah, petros whatever out of the statement and just look at the last part. “…I will build my church” His church. What would it look like? Which is it?
Hello Santaro,
The Church that Christ built looks exactly like the Church described in the Book af Acts, they keep the Sabbath as Christ and the original apostles did, the Holy Days, as He and they did. It has the same form of Chruch government as it then etc… its called True Apostolic Chrostianity, not what became known as Apostolic Christianity 2 or 3 hundred years later, but real Christianity as described in Gods Word, again primarily in the Book of Acts.
I hope this helps, GED
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santaro75
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It helps I guess. But which church is the one that the netherworld would never prevail over?
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michaelp
Guest
Booklover said:
Didn’t you choose to believe the interpretation of history as offered by the RCC?
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michaelp
Guest
Hades will never prevail over the Body of Christ. In other words, Satan and all his legions cannot keep God from bringing people into this body through the Gospel.
Michael
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santaro75
Guest
Hey Michael, you always offer very well organized thoughts. Which church? if you don’t mind. If just the unified body of christ, how are we unified when we condemn eachother and have different doctrines and i deas about what christ wanted.
I would be intersted to hear how you would structure a church if you were jesus and wanted to leave a church. woudl you want a visible church or an invisible one? An invisible Kingdom or visible one?
I would be intersted to hear how you would structure a church if you were jesus and wanted to leave a church. woudl you want a visible church or an invisible one? An invisible Kingdom or visible one?
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michaelp
Guest
This is a good question. I believe that Christ’s prayer for the unity of the Church was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit baptized every believer into one Body–the Body of Christ. This is an ontological unity (unity of essence or being) that all those who trust in Christ share whether they act like it or not.
How are we unified when we fight? I often ask that about my children. Why do they fight so when they are part of the same family? Their fighting does not mean that they are not in unity since their unity is an ontological unity, but that they don’t act out their unity as they should. “The dogs of the closest breed fight the most.” This seem to be the sad case with the Church.
Creedal unity is important as well, but absolute creedal unity will not be acheived in this life since we all see in a mirror dimly, but when Christ comes, we will see face to face.
But, as many people have already acknoledged on this forum many times, there are more things that unite us than divide us. The key is getting back to the essentials and teaching everyone that is coming out of this fundementalistic moderist age that everyone does not have to agree on everything.
“In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.” This is a good modo to go by.
I wrote an article on this that you might be interested in.
bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2452
I don’t know. I have never thought about it. I am glad He did not put me in that position.
Michael
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chrisb
Guest
Peace be with you santaro75,
Everyone who is Baptized as a believer is a member of Christ’s body and as such is part of His Church, which is one.
For we being any are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. - 1 Corinthians 10:17
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:13
Let me ask you, “As members of the Kingdom of Heaven, are we “of” this world or merely “in” this world and now “of” the Spirit?”
Such a Kingdom is made up a the “flock of God” and is shepherded as such.
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. - 1 Peter 5:2-3
The Church of Christ was simple. Man complicated it and thus brought division. Do not mistake these complications as the Church for that would be Idolatry.
Peace.
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Glenamyaglen
Guest
Hello All, I hope you are all well.
I wanted to share something with you, maybe it will help, maybe not. I think one of the problems that your facing, and perhaps dont realize it, is that the word “hades” has to do with the grave, not the evil nether kingdom of Satan and his minions. The term “gates of” has to do with the “power” of the grave. The gates of the grave or the power of the grave will not prevail against Gods people because we will be resurrected from the grave. That is why Paul said in the resurrection chapter, Death is swollowed up in victory, O death where is your sting? O hades, where is your victory? 1 Corinthians 15:54-55.
Try to understand that though Satan is powerful against mankind, he is nothing against the Great God - Satan can do NOTHING against Gods elect without Gods express permission. And God will allow Satan to test His people, Job 1, Revelation 12:17. What I’m getting at is that the nether world has no bearing whatsoever, the grave does because the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23, Sin is the problem, but God made a way for us to be reconciled to Him through His Son Jesus Christ. In fact if there was a nether world, it would have to be the state that the demons are in that is mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 hell here is from the Greek “tartaroo” which is a state of incarceration, Strongs 5020 Gr. Satan is the god of this world, 2 Corinthians 4:4, there is no need for a nether world. When men die they know nothing, they are dead, Ecclesiates 9:5. Death holds them till God calls at the end of the age, John 6:40, 44.
At any rate I hope this was helpful to someone, take care, GED
I wanted to share something with you, maybe it will help, maybe not. I think one of the problems that your facing, and perhaps dont realize it, is that the word “hades” has to do with the grave, not the evil nether kingdom of Satan and his minions. The term “gates of” has to do with the “power” of the grave. The gates of the grave or the power of the grave will not prevail against Gods people because we will be resurrected from the grave. That is why Paul said in the resurrection chapter, Death is swollowed up in victory, O death where is your sting? O hades, where is your victory? 1 Corinthians 15:54-55.
Try to understand that though Satan is powerful against mankind, he is nothing against the Great God - Satan can do NOTHING against Gods elect without Gods express permission. And God will allow Satan to test His people, Job 1, Revelation 12:17. What I’m getting at is that the nether world has no bearing whatsoever, the grave does because the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23, Sin is the problem, but God made a way for us to be reconciled to Him through His Son Jesus Christ. In fact if there was a nether world, it would have to be the state that the demons are in that is mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 hell here is from the Greek “tartaroo” which is a state of incarceration, Strongs 5020 Gr. Satan is the god of this world, 2 Corinthians 4:4, there is no need for a nether world. When men die they know nothing, they are dead, Ecclesiates 9:5. Death holds them till God calls at the end of the age, John 6:40, 44.
At any rate I hope this was helpful to someone, take care, GED
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santaro75
Guest
Well, I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying. Fathers hate to see their kids fight. IS our heavenly father any different? Is our family supposed to mirror his heavenly, familial essence of father, son and holy spirit? I think so, but humans always fall short of divinity.
But the question remains in my mind; was christ speaking of an invisible body of faith as his church or was he speaking of a church as we know it. God was a spirit in the old testament there for everything was invisible. He was word. God was a man in the New testament. He became tangible, he used water and mud and other physical tangible things so give form to his graces. That is one reason that catholics use physical materials in their sacraments. So Would he also want a physical and visible church?
Does anyone know what the usage of the word “church” was in the times of the apostles?
But the question remains in my mind; was christ speaking of an invisible body of faith as his church or was he speaking of a church as we know it. God was a spirit in the old testament there for everything was invisible. He was word. God was a man in the New testament. He became tangible, he used water and mud and other physical tangible things so give form to his graces. That is one reason that catholics use physical materials in their sacraments. So Would he also want a physical and visible church?
Does anyone know what the usage of the word “church” was in the times of the apostles?
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Booklover
Guest
Peace be with you also Chrisb! On what do you base your information that those guiding the Church “were not guided by the Holy Spirit”? Jesus told us that his Church would be “the light of the world”. He promised us that the gates of Hell would never prevail against his Church. That means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him.
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Glenamyaglen
Guest
Hello Santaro75, I hope you are well.
The usage of the word church in the times of the apostles? It would have to refer to those called out of this world by God to assemble before Him and be part of His house.
Would He want a physical and visible church? Well He calls His people out of the world to be a light to the rest of the world, Matthew 5:16, so in that sense He wants His Church to be visible, but He also says that His Church are those being built up to be a spiritual house 1 Peter 2:5-10. His Church is the house in which He dwells through His Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 6:16. So yes He wanted a physical church being made up of individual members, 1 Corinthians 12:27, so He could train us and prepare us to be spirit beings in His Kingdom, Ephesians 4:13; 1 John 3:2-3.
I dont know if this helped any, but its all I’ve got for the present.
Take care, GED
The usage of the word church in the times of the apostles? It would have to refer to those called out of this world by God to assemble before Him and be part of His house.
Would He want a physical and visible church? Well He calls His people out of the world to be a light to the rest of the world, Matthew 5:16, so in that sense He wants His Church to be visible, but He also says that His Church are those being built up to be a spiritual house 1 Peter 2:5-10. His Church is the house in which He dwells through His Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 6:16. So yes He wanted a physical church being made up of individual members, 1 Corinthians 12:27, so He could train us and prepare us to be spirit beings in His Kingdom, Ephesians 4:13; 1 John 3:2-3.
I dont know if this helped any, but its all I’ve got for the present.
Take care, GED
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santaro75
Guest
I am not sure. Are you saying that he wanted an official church or just a communion of believers each separate with everything self revealed. Or a church that was visible, physical and taught beliefs.
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Glenamyaglen
Guest
Hello Santaro75,
He wants, and has a Church that has offices for the purpose of teaching and leading the flock, the laymembers. See Ephesians 4:11-13. BUT He also wants the flock, the laymembers, to be studying His Word as well, 2 Timothy 2:15, 1 Peter 3:15, God wants us to prove all things, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, like the Bereans did, as they daily searched the Scriptures to see if what the apostles were teaching was correct, Acts 17:10-11, notice that the Bible says that the Bereans were more “fair minded” than the Thessalonians because they did search the Scriptures. Also it says that because they did do this “many of them believed”, Vs 12.
One needs to know if the teachers are teaching the Truth or something other than the Truth, that is one reason God wants the laymembers to study themselves, as He says we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, Philippians 2:12. Also the Bible is the mind of God revealed, we are to study His Word that we can develop His Mind, Philippians 2:5. Christ was the Word made flesh, we are to eat of His flesh, John 6:41, 48-58. We do that by studying His Word and ingesting it into our minds.
I hope this was helpful, GED
He wants, and has a Church that has offices for the purpose of teaching and leading the flock, the laymembers. See Ephesians 4:11-13. BUT He also wants the flock, the laymembers, to be studying His Word as well, 2 Timothy 2:15, 1 Peter 3:15, God wants us to prove all things, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, like the Bereans did, as they daily searched the Scriptures to see if what the apostles were teaching was correct, Acts 17:10-11, notice that the Bible says that the Bereans were more “fair minded” than the Thessalonians because they did search the Scriptures. Also it says that because they did do this “many of them believed”, Vs 12.
One needs to know if the teachers are teaching the Truth or something other than the Truth, that is one reason God wants the laymembers to study themselves, as He says we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, Philippians 2:12. Also the Bible is the mind of God revealed, we are to study His Word that we can develop His Mind, Philippians 2:5. Christ was the Word made flesh, we are to eat of His flesh, John 6:41, 48-58. We do that by studying His Word and ingesting it into our minds.
I hope this was helpful, GED
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Katholikos
Guest
If Christ wanted us to learn about Him only through studying a book, He would have written one and left it for us. He didn’t do that. Nor did he tell any of his Apostles to write. He told his Apostles to teach “whatsoever I have commanded you” Mt 28:20. And that’s what they did. Christ didn’t leave us a book, he left us a teacher – the Church founded on Peter, the Chief Apostle. The Apostles were the leaders and instructors of the Church. The Church in turn has taught the world. The Church was the Agent of the Holy Spirit in writing the NT and forming the Bible. There was no Bible until the Church was nearly 400 years old.
The New Testament is a literary record of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church during the first 100 years or so of it’s life. It is not an instruction book in Christianity.
90% of people were illiterate when Jesus was on the earth. Why would He expect them to study a book? That is ludicrous, my man, just plain ludicrous. It would be 16 centuries before literacy improved. 50% of the world’s population still cannot read or write. 20% of Americans this very day are functionally illiterate.
Christianity is not based on the Bible. Just the opposite. The New Testament is based on the teaching of the Catholic Church that wrote it.
The first Christians who learned their doctrines from the lips of the Apostles knew what St. Paul and St. John meant when they wrote about the Eucharist – because they taught them orally before they ever wrote a word.
St. Paul founded the Church at Corinth in 51 A.D. He lived with the Corinthians and taught them the Faith personally. Then – leaving priests and bishops in his place – he moved on. Five years later, he wrote to them: “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” 1 Cor 10:16. These were rhetorical questions – Paul knew the answer. He had taught the Corinthians personally that the consecrated Eucharist contained the Real Presence of Christ – His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. The same was true of St. John. He taught the Church for about 65 years, confecting and distributing the Eucharist to the Faithful himself, before he ever wrote his Gospel.
You won’t find a single Christian in the early Church who agrees with your take on the Scriptures. And they were there – they knew the Apostles personally – and still had their teaching ringing in their ears. Read the Didache, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp, St. Clement, St. Justin Martyr, and others. Then you’ll know what the Apostles taught. And you’ll know what ***you ***should believe.
BTW, the Bereans were studying the messianic prophecies of the Greek Septuagint OT, which all Protestants (and you) reject.
It is in the teaching of the Catholic Church, founded by the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God Himself, that you find the mind of God revealed.
Study early Christianity. You’ll find out in a hurry that the church you belong to is not Apostolic.
Peace be to you and to all who post at Catholic Answers.
JMJ Jay
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