Non-Catholics taking Communion?

[mean_owen]

I’ve already explained some of my reasons for accepting, even if grudgingly, the idea of closed communion. If for no other reason, it’s just polite to follow the customs of the other folks when you visit, even when you think they’re silly. (You know, when in Rome…)

OTOH, I’ve never bought the argument that it’s being done to protect us non-Catholics from eternal damnation. For one thing, IIRC when Paul was talking about eating unworthily, that was in the context of bad behavior during the supper (some pigged out while others went hungry, some started before all had assembled, etc.), not about being in a Perfect State of Grace in the Bosom of the Holy Roman Catholic Church™. Also, where does the concept of “outside the Church there is no salvation” fit in here? I know the standard reply is that only God knows these things, but certainly the understanding given is that a non-Catholic stands about as much a chance as a chihuahua in a dogfight of making it in to Heaven. (i.e. it COULD happen, just like monkeys COULD fly…). So, the idea that, by taking communion in an RC Mass, a non-Catholic Christian is asking for a one-way ticket to Hell really is a moot point. He most likely already had it when he walked in the door.

 

[montanaman]

This idea of an “open communion” is interesting, but I think it reveals more about the mushy-thinking Protestantism inspires.

Communion by nature will be closed–it’s closed to unbelievers. If you don’t believe, how likely is it that you’ll be “in communion” with the Church, even speaking broadly to encompass Christians of all denominations.

But when we narrow it down a bit, we find that the divisions in the Christian churches mean that many of them are unbelievers, of sorts. More radical fundamentalist churches will be the greatest “unbelievers”–they reject so much more. But even churches closer to RC reject many of the “important” things, so they’re not exactly in communion either.

Therefore, receiving Roman Catholic Communion while not in communion, i.e. rejecting the teachings of the Church, is a lie, or a form of one. You may FEEL strongly that you should be receiving Christ, but how can you when you reject his Church? Worst of all are the people who don’t even believe Christ’s explicit command to eat his literal flesh and blood, yet still take Communion.

(And it should go without saying that even Roman Catholics who receive Communion in a state of grave sin shouldn’t receive either.)

 

[mean_owen]

montanaman:

This idea of an “open communion” is interesting, but I think it reveals more about the mushy-thinking Protestantism inspires…

You may FEEL strongly that you should be receiving Christ, but how can you when you reject his Church?

A mushy-thinking Protestant would probably say that they DON’T reject Christ’s church, just that the Roman Catholic Church Inc. isn’t the totality of the Church.

 

[elgom]

naprous:

Let’s see… I’m a Catholic convert of some 20 years standing now (I was brought up an Episcopalian).

Before I converted, I received communion in many Catholic Churches – in many cases, with the full knowledge and acceptance (and indeed invitation) of the celebrating priest. I had a long talk with a French Benedictine monk about it once, and he told me that his community had no problem with Anglicans in particular, and with anyone else who felt comfortable taking communion with them (perhaps unsurprisingly, I spent a certain amount of time in this particular monastery as a novice).

After I converted, I continued (and still continue) to receive communion when I visit Anglican churches. I have also received communion in Greek Orthodox churches, with great reverence.

I know many others who do likewise (in both senses). I have a friend, an Episcopalian, who spent many years as a sister in a Catholic congregation – and I know Catholic and Orthodox men who have spent many years as monks in a Protestant brotherhood. Have you ever heard of Taizé?

Now, I have to admit that my relatively radical ecumenism (by youse guys’ standards) has been effectively limited to the Anglicans – mostly because I can’t bear the liturgy anywhere else. But I do believe that such ecumenism is important, valid, and blessed by God.

Naprous

I also believe that ecumenism is important, valid, and blessed by God. Jesus wanted us to be all one and he prayed for that. Yet I am confused because your actions in receiving communion in congregations that are not in communion with the Church Christ founded indicate perhaps a lack of belief in the real presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

As far as what others, ex-nuns, etc. and even priests who have allowed you to receive communion is concerned I think you need to do some soul searching as to who in the Church you should listen to. We are to be obedient to the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church. The Magisterium of the Church are those Bishops, etc. in union with the Pope. If by their teachings, etc. they are not in union with the Pope, then what they have to say is not the Church speaking.

I will continue to pray that we will all be one and discussion and understanding is very important, but respect and obedience should be paramount.

God bless.

 

[Anglo-catholic]

To Mean Owen:

Most non-Catholics are going to hell - Hmmm - I wonder what you think about the Jews??

You are well named and speak as a true Pharisee. You feel have the exclusive phone line to God. If you are honest you will admit that you also think that you are better than most of the Catholics around you on Sunday who are not working as hard as you are (straining gnats). Sound familiar? If insulted - consult the words of Jesus.Those who persecute you will think they are honoring God.

To Elgom: “That all may be one” (just as long as you are all one of us). Seems like the one Church must be Roman Catholic and now you have extended your theory of Church = God to be Pope = Church = God. See any problems here?? What about the Orthodox - Will I have their company in hell?

Eye-opening Questions - If I had only one of the Gospels to read on my desert island (other than Luke) and believed every word of it - Would it be sufficient to be a Christian? a Roman Catholic?

How about the doctinal knowledge of the good thief?

• We are getting what we deserve ( acknowledgment of sin & repentance)
• Lord remember me when you get to your **kingdom ** (acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord/ God) and
  ( He will have a kingdom) - a desire to be with God

Seems like Jesus thought that was enough.

 

[mean_owen]

Anglo-catholic:

To Mean Owen:

Most non-Catholics are going to hell - Hmmm - I wonder what you think about the Jews??

You are well named and speak as a true Pharisee. You feel have the exclusive phone line to God. If you are honest you will admit that you also think that you are better than most of the Catholics around you on Sunday who are not working as hard as you are (straining gnats). Sound familiar? If insulted - consult the words of Jesus.Those who persecute you will think they are honoring God.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry in response to that. I guess I’ll do both.
:crying:

 

[StratusRose]

Well, here’s my perspective.

I am a convert, and if it werent for me taking the Eucharist while I was a Protestant then I wouldnt be a Catholic today.

I had the Eucharist explained to me by a very pious, Catholic woman, who I became very close with. After she told me that Christ was present in the Eucharist, I tried it. I was NEVER the same.

I joined a RCIA class shortly thereafter and now I am a Catholic who absolutely adores the Eucharist.

 

[mean_owen]

AnAtheist:

Lev 19:28 “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.” :tsktsk:
You have a tattoo? You’ll fry in hell!

Atheist- No tatoo, tho I do have a piercing. But let’s not start quoting from Leviticus, please. Somebody might get hurt.

Incidentally, I wouldn’t be eligible for the tatoo, which would only be for the Catholics. (I’m just trying to help out.)

 

[PXseeker]

Many priests operate under a “don’t ask / don’t tell” policy. Others will invite all to the table. Since Lutherans confess the Real Presence in the eucahrist, many will join in Catholic communion, even though it’s against “house rules.”

My pastors even do it, when a Lutheran or Anglican church is not available. My denomination has an “open table” policy, but the invitation extended before consecration is to all baptized Christians who belive in the Real Presence.

Peace,
john

 

[larryo]

The reception of the Holy Eucharist is **the **sign of Catholic unity. Most of those who are not in communion with the Catholic Church should not receive Holy Communion. The Orthodox are excepted because they share the same belief in the Eucharist and have valid sacraments administered by validly ordained priests. In fact, Catholics and others who are not in the state of grace are not to receive communion, either. There are specific rules about the reception of the Eucharist in emergency situations. These are defined in canon law. Priests who invite non-believers to receive Holy Communion are facilitating sacrilege and false ecumenism. If non-Catholics “feel” so bad about being “excluded” from receiving the Eucharist, they should investigate the claims of the Catholic Church and, if they agree, they should then convert. Remember, St.Paul likened those who receive unworthily to murderers of Christ.

 

[Anglo-catholic]

Et tu, Larryo All Non-Roman Catholics are by definition unworthy??

Perhaps you should investigate what the Pope says about that - We have a portion of the truth even if it is not the fullness.(his viewpoint - not mine) Being a Non-Catholic is not sinful in most cases!! In my case (and Martin Luther, etc) it is because we knowingly left the “true church”.

Maybe everyone coming to church on Sunday should have to sign the Affirmation of Faith a la Diocese of Baker (See Karl’s newsletter for details). I wonder how many would enter that narrow gate. By the way I have no issues with it and would sign the affirmation - I guess it is not thorough enough!! (Some of the gnats got through).

To Mean Owen - Nice non-response (for your sake I pray you are crying as it would mean you evaluated your comments seriously) See Mt 7 -1

 

[mean_owen]

Anglo-catholic:

To Mean Owen - Nice non-response (for your sake I pray you are crying as it would mean you evaluated your comments seriously) See Mt 7 -1

Anglo-Catholic- To understand my response better, you might consider re-reading my posts, paying special attention to the fact that I’ve said that I am not Catholic (in fact, I’m also in the Anglo-Catholic tradition), and, consequently, not terribly likely to accept a literal definition of EENS. Saying the expression “tongue in cheek” as a mantra while reading those posts might help, too. (But don’t let the others know.)

 

[GrzeszDeL]

The Pontificator is treating on a not-unrelated question on his blog right now (which is always worth checking out). Enjoy.

 

[Anglo-catholic]

Touche` Mean Owen

I’m sure its not the last time I will be taking myself or other posters too seriously.

Accordingly, I’ve updated my profile. Shhhh!

 

[SusanL]

Anglo-catholic:

Et tu, Larryo All Non-Roman Catholics are by definition unworthy??

Perhaps you should investigate what the Pope says about that - We have a portion of the truth even if it is not the fullness.(his viewpoint - not mine) Being a Non-Catholic is not sinful in most cases!! In my case (and Martin Luther, etc) it is because we knowingly left the “true church”.

Maybe everyone coming to church on Sunday should have to sign the Affirmation of Faith a la Diocese of Baker (See Karl’s newsletter for details). I wonder how many would enter that narrow gate. By the way I have no issues with it and would sign the affirmation - I guess it is not thorough enough!! (Some of the gnats got through).

To Mean Owen - Nice non-response (for your sake I pray you are crying as it would mean you evaluated your comments seriously) See Mt 7 -1

Wow! Are you mad!! Please, go back and re-read these posts when you are sufficiently calm. ( Believe me, I know what it’s like to get mad when you’re reading posts). These people aren’t saying that anyone is unworthy. (Heck, we’re all unworthy). They are just saying that to take communion you have to be in communion. That’s simple enough.

I know what it is like to have differences with Catholics. I was raised Protestant. I had to clear my head, my temper and my ego to really seek out what was true. It takes a lot of humbling of oneself to consider the possibility that maybe they’re not all wrong. Most of all I had to pray. I really had to ask God what he wanted me to do.
I am now Roman Catholic.

Maybe you should ask him, too. Sue

 

[SusanL]

Anglo-catholic:

Touche` Mean Owen

I’m sure its not the last time I will be taking myself or other posters too seriously.

Accordingly, I’ve updated my profile. Shhhh!

Ok. I read your profile. Pardon me for being blunt, ok?

You mean you left the Eucharist over Marian doctrines??

Were there any other issues?

Is the Anglo-Catholic church the same as the Episcopal church (but in England)?

Do you believe that the Anglo-Catholic church has Our Lord in the Eucharist the same as the RC Church? (I think that some do due to the passing down of the blessing-?- from former RC priests/Bishops).

As you can see, I am still learning. Thanks. Sue

 

[Busybee]

Anglo-catholic:

You should be aware of a big secret that many Anglican and Episcopal clergy take communion at Roman Catholic churches when travelling and one of our own churches is unavailable -like in South America. They also direct us parishioners there too!

Everyone is apparently only concerned about keeping us from sinning - but that is only if we receive unworthily (while we are in sin - this has nothing to do with whether we are in full communion with the Pope, etc.). If I am correct one must only believe the Eucharist is the True Body and Blood in order to receive communion. I agree with you that the Eucharist is the most important part of our Christianity - so I don’t find a prayer service a suitable substitute - that’s why I seek out a Catholic Mass.

Yes - for a female Episcopal priest to wear h

er collar would be scandalous (to Roman Catholics) - that’s why she doesn’t wear it to a RC church

Trying to exclude fellow Christians that believe is not loving. In my 50 years experience as a cradle Catholic - If you excluded all those Catholics that do not believe what the RC Church teaches - the pews would be a lot emptier.

And the Church would be a lot stronger.

 

[elgom]

Anglo-catholic:

To Elgom: “That all may be one” (just as long as you are all one of us). Seems like the one Church must be Roman Catholic and now you have extended your theory of Church = God to be Pope = Church = God. See any problems here?? What about the Orthodox - Will I have their company in hell?

I am sorry I made you so angry, that was never my intent. I just though it was possible to make you understand that Jesus would want you to respect the beliefs and practices of others even if you do not agree with them.

“That all may be one” means just what it says that we are all one in the Truth. You have admitted that you do not have the whole truth so I pray you will again be one with us.

A little question here: “HOW COULD YOU LEAVE JESUS?” I’ve never been able to understand how anyone could do that.

I would like to invite you to Eucharistic Adoration sometime. Everyone is welcome to come and speak to Our Lord. Come gently and kneel before the Lord in the Eucharistic upon the altar and ask him to reveal himself to you in your heart. Tell him you seek the Truth, Tell him how much you Love him. (I can tell you do and very much.)

I never said you were unworthy, I never mentioned Hell, but to be in Communion or not is the issue here, everything else is emotion. My children become emotional when I tell them they can’t have something, but that doesn’t mean it is good for them. Parents know when something is good for their children.

In the Catholic Church we do not let our children receive the Eucharist without proper training and reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Since you were Catholic before you know this. Please beware of pride. Jesus is meek and humble of heart.

I write in only Peace my friend and I pray that someday you will bring that great big fire of yours back home and share it with others. You have been given great gifts by God in your life I pray you do his will with them.

God bless!

 

[Anglo-catholic]

To elgom:

Why would I be angry?? Hmmmm Let’s see?
Comments like:

“HOW COULD YOU LEAVE JESUS?” (so now we are not even Christians)

Jesus would want you to respect the beliefs and practices of others even if you do not agree with them. (Like He did the Pharisees and established religious authorities)

Parents know when something is good for their children. (Thanks Mom)

You have been given great gifts by God in your life I pray you do His will with them (I agree and think I have)

Remember, St.Paul likened those who receive unworthily to murderers of Christ. (Not your comment - but loving none the less)

Please beware of pride. Jesus is meek and humble of heart. (Anyone who thinks they have the exclusive on God - Please read the above).

In closing - I made a hard choice in leaving because I could not accept Marian dogma. To stay would be to lie to myself and others by pretending to be in communion when I was not. I am not advocating that anyone leave the Roman Catholic Church. Only asking Roman Catholics to consider that there could be others outside the RCC that are still members of Christ’s Church.

Why do we treat our “separated brothers and sisters” worse than strangers?

 

[elgom]

Anglo-catholic:

To elgom:

Why would I be angry?? Hmmmm Let’s see?
Comments like:

“HOW COULD YOU LEAVE JESUS?” (so now we are not even Christians)

Jesus would want you to respect the beliefs and practices of others even if you do not agree with them. (Like He did the Pharisees and established religious authorities)

Parents know when something is good for their children. (Thanks Mom)

You have been given great gifts by God in your life I pray you do His will with them (I agree and think I have)

Remember, St.Paul likened those who receive unworthily to murderers of Christ. (Not your comment - but loving none the less)

Please beware of pride. Jesus is meek and humble of heart. (Anyone who thinks they have the exclusive on God - Please read the above).

In closing - I made a hard choice in leaving because I could not accept Marian dogma. To stay would be to lie to myself and others by pretending to be in communion when I was not. I am not advocating that anyone leave the Roman Catholic Church. Only asking Roman Catholics to consider that there could be others outside the RCC that are still members of Christ’s Church.

Why do we treat our “separated brothers and sisters” worse than strangers?

Thank you my friend for slapping me back. I needed that. I am constantly trying to stay on my knees anyway.

Listen you were Catholic before, and I can imagine how difficult it was for you to leave. If you could meet me personally and could talk to me face to face, you wouldn’t have thought I was trying to hurt you in any way. You have to understand that for me Jesus is so very present in an incredibly personal way in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar that I could never leave him and I’m just trying to understand. This forum is sometimes difficult because the written word just doesn’t communicate inflection of tone and body language which we all use to communicate as well. :crying:

Can you forgive me for any offense? Perhaps you could try to explain your difficulties with Marian doctrines. I admit, I am no expert and as you can see am just learning how to help others learn about the teachings of the Church, but you are very good at helping me to see my failings as well. As I mentioned before, my husband is not Catholic and a separated brethern as well, and I know he loves me. He knows I in no way look down or treat anyone who is not Catholic with disrespect because we are all striving for the same goal and can learn from one another. My prayer is that you will refrain from receiving Jesus in the Eucharist just because you know your are not in communion with us (i.e. Marian doctrines).

In the meantime, can we at least agree to disagree on Communion and perhaps discuss one of the Marian doctrines you have a hard time with. Perhaps you should start a new link dealing with that question. (Let me know where you are so I can learn too.)

God bless