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East_Anglican
Guest
The Church is Eternal. The Old Testament Church was Isreal (The Jews) Jews do not worship God in the fullness that we do if they do not except The Messiah (My belief not necessarilly Anglican)
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kalt
Guest
Says who?
Couldn’t God choose to save only those he wanted, and call that a success? Doesn’t God get to choose His own goals? If God chose to save only some, it wouldn’t be a failure, It would be His choice. Why do babies die?
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East_Anglican
Guest
God so loved the world and not a select group of people in it that he gave his only son. So that not a a select bunch but whoever believes in him, shall have eternal life.Says who?
Why do babies die?
Everyone and not a select group of people but everyone who calls on The Lord shall be saved.
God was reconcilliing the world and not just a few people in it to himself through Christ on the cross.
In short, salvation is there for everyone who believes.
Faith is the evidence of things unseen, so our faith should lead all to him. The reason our faith doesn’t is because we are human and a lot of the time look like everybody else.
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Subrosa
Guest
It is important to know your understanding of these two positions. Please tell us your perspective.
I don’t understand the question. This says to me that we must believe them, but we don’t have to believe them. This is an oxymoron. Please clarify.
This is easy. Find the word “church” in the bible and see how many times it is given in plural. Then check back with us. Use a concordance. It makes it easier.
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Subrosa
Guest
You are SO RIGHT about these issues. Many so-called Catholics nurture misunderstandings based on only thier own opinions. It is disheartening to say the least.
Given that, there are many parishes where this is not true. Many are the smaller parishes that can be more intimate. See if there any around where live. In my own parish there are people who very much take part and believe wholeheartedly, myself included.
Also, there are many who form thier opinions by what is in the media. Pedophile priests and Baptist preachers who beat thier wives, people like Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker. Many people see Christianity as a joke. (Sorry, off topic! Just letting off steam!)
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kalt
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I’m not arguing that salvation isn’t offered to everyone. But I disagree that if God chose not to offer it to everyone, it would be a “failure”. Who are we to tell God that what He does is a success or failure. If God had decided differently, we would have to right to call it a "failure?
It’s all His choice.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
Very interesting thread. I learned alot. Thank you non-Catholics for being so honest and direct with your objections. I’d like to summarize.
*]Authority was by far the number one issue.
*]Mary was a close second.
*]Attitude and Practice- Too many Catholics are in your face, present an air of superiority, and are lukewarm in their relationship with Jesus or practice of their faith.
*]Claim of Universality and One True Church
*]Saints
*]Theology on Justification and Salvation: Not OSAS or Sola Fide
*]Sacraments: Problems with the Eucharist or closed Communion, male Priesthood, infant baptism.
*]Focus on Liturgy/Rituals.
*]Understanding of the effects of Original Sin.
*]Issues revolving definition of Sin and their remission related to indulgences and purgatory
*]Temporal Conduct: An issue in the belief that God’s/Natural Law supercedes the Constitution or separation of Church and State or handling of the sex abuse scandal.
*]Church Doctrines: Abortion, Divorce, Contraception
What surprised me was what was that nobody said “Catholics don’t read the Bible” or Confession.
To Non-Catholics: Many of you have issues but based on how you described them, I’m not sure you really understand what the Church teaches on this issue. You certainly don’t understand the rationale. If you were really committed to unity and ecumenicalism, you would take it upon your self to understand at least the rationale. You don’t have to agree. For instance, Authority is the biggest issue. Start there. We don’t teach that the Pope or Church is impeccable but infallible. Do you know the difference? And don’t learn with an objective of arguing. Do so just to understand. If you better understand us, we can have a better dialogue.
To Catholics: Many of these issues are in part our fault. The reason they so oppose our Authority is we too often throw it in their face. If we are talking about Mary, we don’t have to just rely on Authority. There are good practical, Scriptural and logical reasons that Mary can be respected without it being a detraction from Jesus. Talk to our non-Catholic breathren in terms that respect their perspective and even vernacular. This goes to the other issues as well.
We could also be more inquisitive on the why’s and what’s they believe. It will not only give us greater understanding of them but will enhance all of our conversation.
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Syele
Guest
nice summary
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kalt
Guest
"And don’t learn with an objective of arguing’
This goes for us Catholics, too.
Too often both sides scramble to find the information, just so we (Catholics and non-Catholics) can use it against the other. You can tell when that’s happening, because we pick and choose the related facts very carefully.
That’s not going to promote a complete, open and honest discussion. It won’t lead to better understanding or unity. In fact, I think it might solidify our seperated condition. What do the rest of you think? Does working like this actually hurt the unity cause? I’m just thinking out loud, and wonder what you guys think about that guess.
BTW, I’m new, and I really like these boards.
This goes for us Catholics, too.
Too often both sides scramble to find the information, just so we (Catholics and non-Catholics) can use it against the other. You can tell when that’s happening, because we pick and choose the related facts very carefully.
That’s not going to promote a complete, open and honest discussion. It won’t lead to better understanding or unity. In fact, I think it might solidify our seperated condition. What do the rest of you think? Does working like this actually hurt the unity cause? I’m just thinking out loud, and wonder what you guys think about that guess.
BTW, I’m new, and I really like these boards.
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Bible_Believer
Guest
Here are the things I dont agree with about the Catholic church…and there again…only because it was asked Im listing these…and I also wanted to point out like another poster said…I am not anti catholic. Do I agree with what the church teaches…NO…but that doesnt make me have a hostile feeling toward any Catholic.
I guess my biggest thing that I dont agree with is the presence of Christ in the eucharist…have a really big issue with that,
and I dont agree with the elevation of Mary in the church,
and the idea that you have to go to confessions to a priest…when I can confess my sin straight to my high priest…Jesus Christ.
I guess I really should be backing these up with scripture…which I can, but Im pressed for time at the moment, but I will if anyone asks me why I dont agree with these things,
and oh…just one more thing, I dont believe I got my Bible because of the catholic church…
there again…I only posted this as an answer to a question.
I have no ill feelings toward anyone who believes different than me,
God bless!
I guess my biggest thing that I dont agree with is the presence of Christ in the eucharist…have a really big issue with that,
and I dont agree with the elevation of Mary in the church,
and the idea that you have to go to confessions to a priest…when I can confess my sin straight to my high priest…Jesus Christ.
I guess I really should be backing these up with scripture…which I can, but Im pressed for time at the moment, but I will if anyone asks me why I dont agree with these things,
and oh…just one more thing, I dont believe I got my Bible because of the catholic church…
there again…I only posted this as an answer to a question.
I have no ill feelings toward anyone who believes different than me,
God bless!
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Orionthehunter
Guest
Why do you have a big problem with Christ being in the Eucharist? He did say it was His Body and Blood. That is what Catholics say too. We are just talking the Bible literally.
Why do you disagree with us elevating Mary? The angel did say she was “full of grace”. We are just affording her the honor given to her by God via the angel.
I’ve been Catholic my whole life, go to Confession regularly, and have never confessed my sins to a Priest. I’ve always confessed them to Christ. Why do you object to the use of Christ of the Priest?
Since the Bible is the inspired word of the Holy Spirit and He used the Catholic Church to canonize it, where do you think it came from? Did it drop from the sky?
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Bible_Believer
Guest
That was a very amusing response…of course it dropped from the sky…
ok…I know I, as well as others have talked this till we are blue in the face showing you scripture as to why we believe catholic teachings are wrong…Im going to make this real easy on myself and you…I will recommend two books for you to read…
have you heard of the author David W Daniels?? He has two books which will cover very clearly about how we got our Bible and what the Catholic church has done with it, and also where the catholic church came from in the first place…
- Did the Catholic Church Give us The Bible…(The True History of God’s Words), and
- Babylon Religion
I have read both of these books several times…and will read them again…This author loves the Lord and is interested in people knowing the TRUTH. I know you will not agree…but oh well…
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Orionthehunter
Guest
You gave a list of those matters with which you disagree with the Church and said you’d explain them. I specifically asked you what you said you’d do and this is your answer?
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richardwy
Guest
Pretend you don’t know where you’re from. Who your people are. You don’t even know where home is.
For some reason knowing the answer to those three questions wasn’t the hottest potato on your plate. Now it is.
You begin by looking up folks who knew folks. Maybe your folks. Maybe not. But you keep going back looking for your relatives and your home.
That’s the straightest line I know. That’s how I did it.
If you’re sincere and get stuck, PM me. If you want to discuss merely and trade barbs. Skip it.
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SIA
Guest
Purgatory, The Assumption and The Immaculate Conception. None of them are contained in Scripture nor were any of them a doctrine of the early church. I reject all three as untruthful.
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1234
Guest
Here, here SIA w/ Purgatory , the Immac Conception and Assumption to which I add;
The so-called True presence.
Even as an Episcopalian convert I found all the talk of Body and Blood in our Holy Communion, virtually a direct translation of the RC latin Mass, btw–to be nauseating. I was never comfortable with the barbaric concepts of eating flesh and blood.
I feel that Jesus, speaking as a Jew, never intended anyone to take him literally, assuming that the words he spoke were literally of eating his flesh and blood–but was likening that meal, his last supper, the Jewish Seder to the actual purpose of a Jewish Seder, is breaking bread and drinking to Jewish survival-- as a memorial to him. I think that the early church corrupted his meaning early on by non-Jewish gentiles who imported Greek concepts from Bacchic and other rituals in which the flesh of the gods (or sacrificed humans) was actually eaten in resurrection, rebirth ceremonies which took place in the spring.
The so-called True presence.
Even as an Episcopalian convert I found all the talk of Body and Blood in our Holy Communion, virtually a direct translation of the RC latin Mass, btw–to be nauseating. I was never comfortable with the barbaric concepts of eating flesh and blood.
I feel that Jesus, speaking as a Jew, never intended anyone to take him literally, assuming that the words he spoke were literally of eating his flesh and blood–but was likening that meal, his last supper, the Jewish Seder to the actual purpose of a Jewish Seder, is breaking bread and drinking to Jewish survival-- as a memorial to him. I think that the early church corrupted his meaning early on by non-Jewish gentiles who imported Greek concepts from Bacchic and other rituals in which the flesh of the gods (or sacrificed humans) was actually eaten in resurrection, rebirth ceremonies which took place in the spring.
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Imryl
Guest
To the original post:
God.
God.
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t68ware
Guest
You dislike God??
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Imryl
Guest
Well hate and/or detest would be a better description, but yes dear.
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