Non-Catholics: What do you think of Catholic morality?

[Hatikvah]

I know that it would be nebulous to say “Catholic morality,” even though Christianity can agree on most morals up until this century or the last where people start “accepting” gay marriage, abortion, whatever the matter may be that the Bible rejects.

By this, I mean the moral stances that Catholicism takes on any particular issues, including (if you’d like, as it is related) the mortal vs. venial sin distinction.

Personally, being a more “conservative” Protestant (as opposed to, what, allowing everything as right?), I take no issue with Catholic morality because it’s practically mine, though I say it doesn’t go far enough on some issues. It is perfectly in line with Scripture and common sense.

What do other non-Catholics think, appreciate, take issue with…?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I know that it would be nebulous to say “Catholic morality,” even though Christianity can agree on most morals up until this century or the last where people start “accepting” gay marriage, abortion, whatever the matter may be that the Bible rejects.

By this, I mean the moral stances that Catholicism takes on any particular issues, including (if you’d like, as it is related) the mortal vs. venial sin distinction.

Personally, being a more “conservative” Protestant (as opposed to, what, allowing everything as right?), I take no issue with Catholic morality because it’s practically mine, though I say it doesn’t go far enough on some issues. It is perfectly in line with Scripture and common sense.

What do other non-Catholics think, appreciate, take issue with…?

How about birth control Hatikvah? Any objections to the Church’s teaching on that?

 

[Hatikvah]

How about birth control Hatikvah? Any objections to the Church’s teaching on that?

I’m aware that, for some reason, this is a divisive issue and even many Catholics make use of birth control against the teaching. I agree with the Church’s teaching on the matter for the reasons given, but natural family planning (usually called NFP) is where it gets tricky because it’s simply a “natural” thing and it’s supposed to be better.

However, nature would have it that children are produced whenever it is possible or whenever God wills it. St. Augustine wrote that the Manichaeans used something akin to NFP and thought it immoral to produce children, but so did other Gnostic groups.

 

[drac16]

It’s OK, I suppose. I like the catholic understanding of abortion; catholics are passionately against it and I like that. I like the current Pope because he seems to think of himself as an average person, not necessarily as the ‘Holy Father’ people claim him to be. He’s the kind of guy I’d like to invite over at my house to have some halal chicken wings and discuss theology. He doesn’t seem like he’s full of himself.

I think the understanding of mortal vs venial sins represents a misunderstanding. There are major sins and minor sins in Islam, but I don’t believe you have to work off ill-effects of sins, like say, looking at internet pornography and doing a penance. You simply repent directly to Allah and that’s the end of it. I think relying on a priest to come back into the “state of grace” is an unnecessary hurdle and ultimately diminishes a person’s confidence in Allah’s mercy.

I like catholics and I like the Pope, but I’ve got issues with their theology. It’s nothing personal.

 

[Hatikvah]

I like catholics and I like the Pope, but I’ve got issues with their theology. It’s nothing personal.

Actually, I agree with that.

 

[jane_doe]

I generally admire Catholic moral positions, though I do disagree on some.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I’m aware that, for some reason, this is a divisive issue and even many Catholics make use of birth control against the teaching. I agree with the Church’s teaching on the matter for the reasons given, but natural family planning (usually called NFP) is where it gets tricky because it’s simply a “natural” thing and it’s supposed to be better.

However, nature would have it that children are produced whenever it is possible or whenever God wills it. St. Augustine wrote that the Manichaeans used something akin to NFP and thought it immoral to produce children, but so did other Gnostic groups.

Thank you. You are correct, Catholics are taking birth control when they know better.

And even as a protestant i agreed with this teaching as well. I mean we should always be trusting God and open to life, right? Im amazed he lets us enter in to the creative process at all tbh.

100 years ago birth control was taboo in all churches. I wonder what happened there lol.

Anyway theres usually 2 groups of people protesting and praying outside abortion mills…Baptists and conservative Catholics. God bless them all, let’s pray them out of business!!

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I generally admire Catholic moral positions, though I do disagree on some.

What do you disagree with in particular? Examples?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I agree with much of it though I have noticed a few issues though I think this is more about individual Catholics and their spiritual maturity and lack thereof, than the Magisterial Teaching.

1. A CAF poster once stated that he didn’t pay any attention to his venial sins because he isn’t required to confess them and they’re not going to keep him out of Heaven. So that’s the only reason to avoid sin, to avoid Hell?
2. I still get the feeling sometimes that many Catholics see annulment as just “Catholic divorce”, just a set of legal loopholes to jump through.

For example, I heard an episode of EWTN Open Line, when a caller stated that he’d been married 5 times and wanted to know what to do about that since he wanted to “find the right girl at Church and get married” again.

The host gave pretty generic “consult an annulment advocate” advice, possibly because a break was coming up. But I thought (especially as the man stated he was a Vietnam vet and had PTSD) that it’s actually possible that the caller may actually be incapable of conducting a valid marriage and that a tribunal may very well find that.

(It also occurred to me that maybe that caller was just trolling and the host suspected that. )

I guess to me that’s what strikes me as the actual scandalous part, not the idea behind annulments, even secular laws often allow for annulments of civil marriages, such as Britney Spears’s first “marriage”. The grounds for that civil annulment don’t sound that different from arguments I’ve seen made for Catholic annulments.

From the Smoking Gun article that actually links to the actual legal document:

Spears, 22, filed the below annulment complaint with the Clark County District Court in a bid to wipe away her blessed, though brief, union to Jason Allan Alexander, a childhood pal from her hometown of Kentwood, Louisiana. In her complaint, Spears notes that her marriage should be dissolved because she “lacked understanding of her actions to the extent that she was incapable of agreeing to marriage because before entering into the marriage the Plaintiff and Defendant did not know each others likes and dislikes, each others desires to have or not have children, and each others desires as to State of residency.”

My issue with annulments, is the idea that apparently anyone can get a “trial of marriage” in the Catholic Church, I know there is the 6 month precana requirement but I’ve never heard of a priest denying a couple marriage. And apparently, even if the marriage starts out under very questionable conditions, and it is possible to BOTH (1) have the couple make the marriage valid eventually without a convalidation from a priest AND (2) have that same couple eventually still get an annulment because the tribunal only looks at conditions on the day of the actual wedding.

About the only exception appears to be, a couple pregnant out of wedlock. And I’ve even seen people argue that absent major issues such as addiction, abuse, etc., that such a couple should give it the “old college try” because there’s no downside to an attempt at marriage here, that either it works out, “becomes valid” and the kid is spared growing up with a single parent, or it doesn’t, but the couple have a slam-dunk case for annulment anyway and won’t be trapped in a bad marriage.

Although I do think that argument ignores the fact that divorce is very traumatic for children, or perhaps naively assumes that even a year or two of childhood spent in an “intact home” followed by divorce, is superior to childhood spent with a single parent from the get-go.

1. Same with sterilization, I have heard this is the most common method of “contraception” among Catholics. That may or may not be true. But the Church doesn’t require the couple to do anything to reverse the procedure, or engage in NFP as a penance, though some couples do. I have seen Catholics proclaim they intend to undergo this procedure and just confess it to a priest later. And yes I have heard of the “sin of presumption”, that you can’t fool God, etc.

But it seems some spiritually immature Catholics don’t really care about pleasing God, they just care about following the rules, they are content with being “not guilty” based on some technicality, even if they’re not really “innocent” of sin.

1. Same with praying for souls in Purgatory, some people do that with a very “quid pro quo” mentality of “if I pray for the souls they will pray for ME and their prayers will benefit ME”!

Now, I am NOT saying most Catholics are like that, such are likely a minority. And that “bad Catholics” and even “bad Popes” do not negate the truth of the Catholic faith itself.

But I must admit that Matthew 7: 16 reference to “You will know them by their fruits” keeps coming up for me.

 

[jane_doe]

What do you disagree with in particular? Examples?

For example, that birth control is inherently evil. Rather I believe that, while children are a prized gift from the Lord, it is in a couple’s stewardship to decide when it is best to have them.

 

[PartyOnBarth]

I disagree with the RC stance on birth control, also with the mortal venial sin distinction.

 

[Augustine3]

I don’t believe you have to work off ill-effects of sins, like say, looking at internet pornography and doing a penance. You simply repent directly to Allah and that’s the end of it. I think relying on a priest to come back into the “state of grace” is an unnecessary hurdle and ultimately diminishes a person’s confidence in Allah’s mercy.

If Allah is a God of justice then where does his justice fit into the above scenario?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

It occurs to me that perhaps my issue is not with “Catholic morality” but the “approach some individual Catholics take to morality”, that is, those who think being a moral person is merely following a set of arbitrary rules, so they can be rewarded for “being good” and avoid punishment for “being bad”.

This is really an immature approach, but certainly it is not just Catholics who can fall into it. Many “secular humanists” assume that “if something is immoral, it should be illegal. If something isn’t illegal, then it can’t be immoral”.

This isn’t just about people who support “liberal” causes such as abortion and state “if abortion is legal it must be moral”, but also people who state thing such as “back then slavery wasn’t illegal, so there was nothing immoral about keeping a slave”.

What I find tricky about figuring out “what Catholics truly believe” is that, compared to other faiths, there are so many Catholics who claim they are Catholics but don’t actually follow Church teachings. And I don’t just mean the “cafeteria Catholics” who dissent toward the left-ward side when it comes to abortion, birth control, gay marriage, etc.

There are also Catholics who claim to be traditional or orthodox “true Catholics” but actually question the current “official teachings” such as, say, the suggestion in the YouCat that masturbation is not always a mortal sin, and insinuate they are the “true Catholics”, sometimes literally more Catholic than the Pope.

Whereas Protestants tend to just leave when they find they are in a church they have significant irreconcilable differences with, and either find a new church denomination or join a “non-denomination Church” or even form their own “house church”. Of course this can cause many problems as well.

 

[Tomdstone]

I still get the feeling sometimes that many Catholics see annulment as just “Catholic divorce”, just a set of legal loopholes to jump through…

His Eminence Walter Cardinal Kasper has said that in some cases a marriage annulment is a divorce in a Catholic way, in a dishonest way.
americamagazine.org/content/all-things/cardinal-kasper-some-fear-domino-effect-synod-family
Similarly, the Catholic concept of mental reservation. The term “mental reservation” seems like a euphemistic expression for a lie. And “annulment” seems like a euphemism for divorce.
Why not just say that there are some circumstances where it is permitted to lie and where it is permitted to divorce?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

For example, that birth control is inherently evil. Rather I believe that, while children are a prized gift from the Lord, it is in a couple’s stewardship to decide when it is best to have them.

Ok, im assuming this is what LDS church teaches as well?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

It’s OK, I suppose. I like the catholic understanding of abortion; catholics are passionately against it and I like that. I like the current Pope because he seems to think of himself as an average person, not necessarily as the ‘Holy Father’ people claim him to be. He’s the kind of guy I’d like to invite over at my house to have some halal chicken wings and discuss theology. He doesn’t seem like he’s full of himself.

I think the understanding of mortal vs venial sins represents a misunderstanding. There are major sins and minor sins in Islam, but I don’t believe you have to work off ill-effects of sins, like say, looking at internet pornography and doing a penance. You simply repent directly to Allah and that’s the end of it. I think relying on a priest to come back into the “state of grace” is an unnecessary hurdle and ultimately diminishes a person’s confidence in Allah’s mercy.

I like catholics and I like the Pope, but I’ve got issues with their theology. It’s nothing personal.

Greetings,

Isn’t it true, though, that Islams judgment is based off a scale system? And that if youre bad outweighs your good you go to hell until the wrath of Allah is satisfied?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I agree with much of it though I have noticed a few issues though I think this is more about individual Catholics and their spiritual maturity and lack thereof, than the Magisterial Teaching.

1. A CAF poster once stated that he didn’t pay any attention to his venial sins because he isn’t required to confess them and they’re not going to keep him out of Heaven. So that’s the only reason to avoid sin, to avoid Hell?
2. I still get the feeling sometimes that many Catholics see annulment as just “Catholic divorce”, just a set of legal loopholes to jump through.

For example, I heard an episode of EWTN Open Line, when a caller stated that he’d been married 5 times and wanted to know what to do about that since he wanted to “find the right girl at Church and get married” again.

The host gave pretty generic “consult an annulment advocate” advice, possibly because a break was coming up. But I thought (especially as the man stated he was a Vietnam vet and had PTSD) that it’s actually possible that the caller may actually be incapable of conducting a valid marriage and that a tribunal may very well find that.

(It also occurred to me that maybe that caller was just trolling and the host suspected that. )

I guess to me that’s what strikes me as the actual scandalous part, not the idea behind annulments, even secular laws often allow for annulments of civil marriages, such as Britney Spears’s first “marriage”. The grounds for that civil annulment don’t sound that different from arguments I’ve seen made for Catholic annulments.

From the Smoking Gun article that actually links to the actual legal document:

My issue with annulments, is the idea that apparently anyone can get a “trial of marriage” in the Catholic Church, I know there is the 6 month precana requirement but I’ve never heard of a priest denying a couple marriage. And apparently, even if the marriage starts out under very questionable conditions, and it is possible to BOTH (1) have the couple make the marriage valid eventually without a convalidation from a priest AND (2) have that same couple eventually still get an annulment because the tribunal only looks at conditions on the day of the actual wedding.

About the only exception appears to be, a couple pregnant out of wedlock. And I’ve even seen people argue that absent major issues such as addiction, abuse, etc., that such a couple should give it the “old college try” because there’s no downside to an attempt at marriage here, that either it works out, “becomes valid” and the kid is spared growing up with a single parent, or it doesn’t, but the couple have a slam-dunk case for annulment anyway and won’t be trapped in a bad marriage.

Although I do think that argument ignores the fact that divorce is very traumatic for children, or perhaps naively assumes that even a year or two of childhood spent in an “intact home” followed by divorce, is superior to childhood spent with a single parent from the get-go.

1. Same with sterilization, I have heard this is the most common method of “contraception” among Catholics. That may or may not be true. But the Church doesn’t require the couple to do anything to reverse the procedure, or engage in NFP as a penance, though some couples do. I have seen Catholics proclaim they intend to undergo this procedure and just confess it to a priest later. And yes I have heard of the “sin of presumption”, that you can’t fool God, etc.

But it seems some spiritually immature Catholics don’t really care about pleasing God, they just care about following the rules, they are content with being “not guilty” based on some technicality, even if they’re not really “innocent” of sin.

1. Same with praying for souls in Purgatory, some people do that with a very “quid pro quo” mentality of “if I pray for the souls they will pray for ME and their prayers will benefit ME”!

Now, I am NOT saying most Catholics are like that, such are likely a minority. And that “bad Catholics” and even “bad Popes” do not negate the truth of the Catholic faith itself.

But I must admit that Matthew 7: 16 reference to “You will know them by their fruits” keeps coming up for me.

Hi,

I think the Church has many protestants within its own ranks. And some are definitely spiritually immature…to the point that it’s sad to witness it. Ive seen some of those same people you are referring to - at Mass every week but curse and smoke like a sailor and flirt with mortal sin constantly.

The things i hear from people is that the church just has too many rules and its impossible to follow them all. And that the Church teachings on the Eucharist or Mary or whatever is just too hard to actually believe in. But i think truth is what it is whether people choose to accept it . its about perspectives imo. We can view it as complicated or we can view them as mysteries of faith and marvel at them. Perception is 90% of reality.

So idk, seems like people are just all about indivdualism in this day and age. Look at all the protestant denominations living in blatant open sin like homosexuality. But their “fruit” seems good as they are some of the nicest people you will ever meet

My parish is charismatic and its a very loving and lively environment. Ive learned that not all parishes are equal in quality. I don’t know you but if soneone told me you passed i wouldn’t hesistate to pray for expecting nothing in return. As Jesus says dont let your left hand know what the right hand is doing.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

1. A CAF poster once stated that he didn’t pay any attention to his venial sins because he isn’t required to confess them and they’re not going to keep him out of Heaven. So that’s the only reason to avoid sin, to avoid Hell?
2. I still get the feeling sometimes that many Catholics see annulment as just “Catholic divorce”, just a set of legal loopholes to jump through.
3. Same with sterilization, I have heard this is the most common method of “contraception” among Catholics. That may or may not be true. But the Church doesn’t require the couple to do anything to reverse the procedure, or engage in NFP as a penance, though some couples do. I have seen Catholics proclaim they intend to undergo this procedure and just confess it to a priest later. And yes I have heard of the “sin of presumption”, that you can’t fool God, etc.
4. Same with praying for souls in Purgatory, some people do that with a very “quid pro quo” mentality of “if I pray for the souls they will pray for ME and their prayers will benefit ME”!

You are right, these are specific to individual Catholics. It is not easy to live the Catholic faith, so it makes sense that there would be slightly watered down individual versions of it that are not in line with Church teaching.

1. This is not in line with the recommendations of the Church. It is true that we do not need to confess venial sins. It is also true that it makes more sense to focus on mortal sins in confession, since confession is required for those. However, CAF was the first time I encountered practicing Catholics insisting that they only went to confession for mortal sins; I know many Catholics that never go at all, but I was always taught to go regularly regardless.
2. Again, CAF was the first place I experienced this. I get the impression that annulments are far more common in the USA than elsewhere. It might be because of the high % of protestant people and therefore the high % of Catholics who didn’t bother getting married in a Catholic ceremony if their spouse was not Catholic… I don’t know. Anyway, on a radio show, I can understand how their default would be to recommend investigating the annulment route. They would not have had time to go into his life history and a priest would have had the time to answer his question specific to him.
3. I don’t think this is right. If you get sterilised and you go to confession, you should reverse it unless there is a serious reason for not doing so. If you get it done with the intention of just confessing it and are not truly sorry, then I don’t see how that sin would be forgiven (I mean, if, as you say, your plan was to commit a sin of “presumption” and get sterilised and want to truly remain sterilised and just avoid Hell). Confession only forgives sins if one is repentant, even if it is imperfect contrition. In this case, I would not think the person was repentant. It is true that if you are sterilised in a serious surgery like tubal ligation, you may not have to reverse it if the reversal is too expensive or too risky. But, I would think that you would need to be truly sorry for it and be willing to reverse it if it was ever possible to do afford ably / with little risk. That is just my opinion, I’m not 100% sure it’s correct but I think it hits close to the mark at least.
4. Again, not what you are supposed to do, but no-one is perfect Jesus spoke out against doing good deeds just to get something out of them for yourself.

 

[Rosebud77]

You are right, these are specific to individual Catholics. It is not easy to live the Catholic faith, so it makes sense that there would be slightly watered down individual versions of it that are not in line with Church teaching.

1. This is not in line with the recommendations of the Church. It is true that we do not need to confess venial sins. It is also true that it makes more sense to focus on mortal sins in confession, since confession is required for those. However, CAF was the first time I encountered practicing Catholics insisting that they only went to confession for mortal sins; I know many Catholics that never go at all, but I was always taught to go regularly regardless.
2. Again, CAF was the first place I experienced this. I get the impression that annulments are far more common in the USA than elsewhere. It might be because of the high % of protestant people and therefore the high % of Catholics who didn’t bother getting married in a Catholic ceremony if their spouse was not Catholic… I don’t know. Anyway, on a radio show, I can understand how their default would be to recommend investigating the annulment route. They would not have had time to go into his life history and a priest would have had the time to answer his question specific to him.
3. I don’t think this is right. If you get sterilised and you go to confession, you should reverse it unless there is a serious reason for not doing so. If you get it done with the intention of just confessing it and are not truly sorry, then I don’t see how that sin would be forgiven (I mean, if, as you say, your plan was to commit a sin of “presumption” and get sterilised and want to truly remain sterilised and just avoid Hell). Confession only forgives sins if one is repentant, even if it is imperfect contrition. In this case, I would not think the person was repentant. It is true that if you are sterilised in a serious surgery like tubal ligation, you may not have to reverse it if the reversal is too expensive or too risky. But, I would think that you would need to be truly sorry for it and be willing to reverse it if it was ever possible to do afford ably / with little risk. That is just my opinion, I’m not 100% sure it’s correct but I think it hits close to the mark at least.
4. Again, not what you are supposed to do, but no-one is perfect Jesus spoke out against doing good deeds just to get something out of them for yourself.

Last para… I hear this so much from the evangleicals who accuse outright of doing good deeds “just to curry favour with Jesus” as one US pastor said to me… or about good deeds done" that won’t get you to heaven… " As if we only do kindness for that… not for love.Motive above deed every time…

 

[Monte_RCMS]

If anyone would like to have a handy reference, suggest using the Baltimore Catechism.