Non-Catholics: What do you think of Catholic morality?

[Peter_J]

I still don’t know about splitting them up in that way, mainly because I was raised being taught and shown that sin leads to death, period.

Here’s something that has puzzled me for years. I was in a bible study meeting, about a dozen years ago, and we read the verse that says there is sin that doesn’t lead to death. One of the women in the group said “No that’s wrong. There is no sin that doesn’t lead to death.”

Nobody really addressed her statement, but I got the impression we were all – Protestants and Catholics alike – thinking “Um … okay. ”

 

[MichaelP3]

While not adamantly opposed to the mortal/venial distinction, I don’t endorse it either. The only thing I tend to significantly part ways on is on the issue of divorce and remarriage. Oh and also the issue of birth control I disagree with them on.

Although I generally rather don’t talk about birth control on this forum as it is quite controversial (And I will be outnumbered by far when expressing views) but I am not sure I understood exactly if you are for or against BC. I get different answers when googling, can I ask what is the Orthodox’x position on BC according to what you know?

 

[carefullytread]

Although I generally rather don’t talk about birth control on this forum as it is quite controversial (And I will be outnumbered by far when expressing views) but I am not sure I understood exactly if you are for or against BC. I get different answers when googling, can I ask what is the Orthodox’x position on BC according to what you know?

Not that I am Orthodox, but I was curious about this question myself before and here is what I found, which I hope is helpful.

It seems there is no clear Orthodox-wide teaching on the matter. Considering there hasn’t been an ecumenical council in over a millennium, that shouldn’t be surprising.

Maybe some Orthodox churches forbid it entirely, but at least the OCA does allow birth control. From their website:

The voluntary control of birth in marriage is only permissible, according to the essence of a spiritual life, when the birth of a child will bring danger and hardship. Those who are living the spiritual life will come to the decision not to bear children only with sorrow, and will do so before God, with prayers for guidance and mercy. It will not be a decision taken lightly or for self-indulgent reasons.

According to the common teaching in the Orthodox Church, when such a decision is taken before God, the means of its implementation are arbitrary. There are, in the Orthodox opinion, no means of controlling birth in marriage which are better or more acceptable than others. All means are equally sad and distressing for those who truly love. For the Christian marriage is the one that abounds with as many new children as possible.

So while they suggest birth control is only allowed in certain “sorrowful” circumstances, when it is allowed, all forms are suitable. Hence, using artificial birth control is morally equivalent to NFP as far as they’re concerned.

I think this was similar to the CofE position after the Council of Lambeth. Controlling birth was a serious matter not to be taken lightly, but if you were doing to do it, you could use artificial means.

 

[drac16]

If Allah is a God of justice then where does his justice fit into the above scenario?

His sense of justice is not active when someone repents. When someone repents, He interacts with that person based on His mercy-- not based on His justice. He would be justified in punishing said person, but He chooses not to.

 

[drac16]

Greetings,

Isn’t it true, though, that Islams judgment is based off a scale system? And that if youre bad outweighs your good you go to hell until the wrath of Allah is satisfied?

That’s a common interpretation, but I do not subscribe to it. The Qur’an certainly uses an analogy of scales and deeds, as in surah 7:8, but it doesn’t actually say that your good deeds have to outweigh your bad deeds. It says, in that same context which extends to surah 7:9, that your good deeds must be heavy. Which is to say, you have to perform good deeds.

It’s a different kind of scale. Like in real life, there are different kinds of scales. There’s a type of scale where you measure two objects in conjunction with one another and there’s a type of scale in which you measure someone’s weight. The scale in surah 7:8-9 is the latter type.

Besides, Allah wipes out a person’s sins once they repent, so to say that you are still held accountable for your sins that you’ve already repented of is absurd. Your good deeds just have to be heavy; one whose deeds are light will be in Hell. I hope that clarifies something.

 

[drac16]

To explain about confession:

The priest is a stand-in for Jesus Christ. It is called “in persona Christi”. It is humiliating to confess for many, and that is good. Also, the priest can give wise advice to the penitent. I have found it to be a very healing sacrament.

Yeah, I know. I’ve heard that before (that the priest can sacramentally forgive sins). We muslims believe in going to God directly. I don’t know how I would feel if I had to go to a priest and admit to masturbating or lusting. That would probably be really awkward.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

That’s a common interpretation, but I do not subscribe to it. The Qur’an certainly uses an analogy of scales and deeds, as in surah 7:8, but it doesn’t actually say that your good deeds have to outweigh your bad deeds. It says, in that same context which extends to surah 7:9, that your good deeds must be heavy. Which is to say, you have to perform good deeds.

It’s a different kind of scale. Like in real life, there are different kinds of scales. There’s a type of scale where you measure two objects in conjunction with one another and there’s a type of scale in which you measure someone’s weight. The scale in surah 7:8-9 is the latter type.

Besides, Allah wipes out a person’s sins once they repent, so to say that you are still held accountable for your sins that you’ve already repented of is absurd. Your good deeds just have to be heavy; one whose deeds are light will be in Hell. I hope that clarifies something.

I see. Thanks for the explanation. A little different than what other Muslims have told me, but good to get a different perspective

Yeah, I know. I’ve heard that before (that the priest can sacramentally forgive sins). We muslims believe in going to God directly. I don’t know how I would feel if I had to go to a priest and admit to masturbating or lusting. That would probably be really awkward.

I guess that’s one of the points in going to confession. Sin is horrible and either we will embarrass sin or sin will embarrass us, in the long run. Better to go to confession and nail it to the cross now before it gets out of hand and costs us dearly later, either in this world or the next…

But when you go to confession the priest is not a judgmental person, he is there to show you God’s love and mercy…and to give you relevant information in how to combat particular sins.

BTW, early Christianity - we confessed in front of the entire congregation in order to receive absolution. That only stopped because non-Christians were coming to churches to get dirt on Christians…

 

[Jake_Parker]

I know that it would be nebulous to say “Catholic morality,” even though Christianity can agree on most morals up until this century or the last where people start “accepting” gay marriage, abortion, whatever the matter may be that the Bible rejects.

By this, I mean the moral stances that Catholicism takes on any particular issues, including (if you’d like, as it is related) the mortal vs. venial sin distinction.

Personally, being a more “conservative” Protestant (as opposed to, what, allowing everything as right?), I take no issue with Catholic morality because it’s practically mine, though I say it doesn’t go far enough on some issues. It is perfectly in line with Scripture and common sense.

What do other non-Catholics think, appreciate, take issue with…?

I think the one thing I have difficulty believing is the categorizing or ranking of sins. I think the Orthodox understanding of this makes more sense.

I’ve noticed lately I think Eastern Orthodox Christianity is more along the lines of what I believe is most consistent with Biblical teaching (in my opinion).

Allowing something to take control of your life or putting anything as the main focus of your life would be considered a sin. Which means any non-sinful thing we enjoy doing can become sinful. As far as repenting, I think we should do this on a regular basis. Rather than obsessing with the category your sins are in, or whether you’ve remembered every single one, I think it’s more important to confess of all sin in general. I’m sure everybody sins more often than they realize, and focusing so much on all the details means we’ve missed the entire purpose. That we all sin, we all should confess, and all sins should be confessed. That is the point; not focusing on the ranking of our sins.

From the Orthodox Church in America:

Rather than worry about developing a list of sins to avoid, it would be much wiser to make a list of virtues and attitudes and ministries to achieve. While it is good to avoid places of temptation, it is better to seek places of inspiration. While it is good to avoid individuals who may lead you to sin, it is better to seek out individuals who will lead you to virtue. While it is good to shun those things which tend to control us, it is better to seek self control over things which have no power over us unless we give them that power.

 

[MichaelP3]

Yeah, I know. I’ve heard that before (that the priest can sacramentally forgive sins). We muslims believe in going to God directly. I don’t know how I would feel if I had to go to a priest and admit to masturbating or lusting. That would probably be really awkward.

All Christians I know about, except Catholics, believe in going to God directly.

 

[MichaelP3]

I think the one thing I have difficulty believing is the categorizing or ranking of sins. I think the Orthodox understanding of this makes more sense.

I’ve noticed lately I think Eastern Orthodox Christianity is more along the lines of what I believe is most consistent with Biblical teaching (in my opinion).

Allowing something to take control of your life or putting anything as the main focus of your life would be considered a sin. Which means any non-sinful thing we enjoy doing can become sinful. As far as repenting, I think we should do this on a regular basis. Rather than obsessing with the category your sins are in, or whether you’ve remembered every single one, I think it’s more important to confess of all sin in general. I’m sure everybody sins more often than they realize, and focusing so much on all the details means we’ve missed the entire purpose. That we all sin, we all should confess, and all sins should be confessed. That is the point; not focusing on the ranking of our sins.

From the Orthodox Church in America:

I never knew much about Orthodox until a while ago when I found some info on that and I would say I agree with you!

 

[carefullytread]

All Christians I know about, except Catholics, believe in going to God directly.

The Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) also have Confession. And given that Catholics are 50% of world Christians and the Orthodox are another 15%, that gives a solid majority of world Christians believing in the importance of Confession!

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) also have Confession. And given that Catholics are 50% of world Christians and the Orthodox are another 15%, that gives a solid majority of world Christians believing in the importance of Confession!

Beat me to it lol.

 

[MichaelP3]

The Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) also have Confession. And given that Catholics are 50% of world Christians and the Orthodox are another 15%, that gives a solid majority of world Christians believing in the importance of Confession!

I really mean no offence by this but I think you were a bit to quick here.

First of all, I was actually in a discussion with an Orthodox on this very forum that got me looking into Orthodox and confession. It is seen as a healing and so on, but because there are no distinction between mortal and venial sin there is no necessity in it. A prayer to God is also part of the Sacrament of Confession. Maybe we need to look more into it, but I kinda agree with their take. It helps (as I always agreed) it is not an essential, as they also seem to say.

Secondly, I can agree on the importance, not on the absolute necessity.

Hope it is more clear

 

[carefullytread]

I really mean no offence by this but I think you were a bit to quick here.

First of all, I was actually in a discussion with an Orthodox on this very forum that got me looking into Orthodox and confession. It is seen as a healing and so on, but because there are no distinction between mortal and venial sin there is no necessity in it. A prayer to God is also part of the Sacrament of Confession. Maybe we need to look more into it, but I kinda agree with their take. It helps (as I always agreed) it is not an essential, as they also seem to say.

Secondly, I can agree on the importance, not on the absolute necessity.

Hope it is more clear

Let me preface this by saying that I’m not Orthodox, so in any matter where I’m wrong, I welcome correction by someone who knows better. The following is my understanding:

The Orthodox don’t have a clear distinction between mortal and venial sin, that is true, but they do need to confess in order to appropriately approach the communion. As someone who’s not an Orthodox, I don’t know exactly how they determine when they need to confess, but they do. Unlike say, an Anglican, for whom private confession is optional, it is not so for the Orthodox.

I recently finished reading Anna Karenina, and there is a scene where the non-believer Levin is going to be married and needs to take communion before he can do so. He has to confess and get a certificate that he did so first!

But, on your latter point, as someone who isn’t Catholic or Orthodox, I agree with you that the Orthodox approach to sin is more appealing. Their approach to theological issues generally strikes me as beautifully respectful of theological mysteries.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I really mean no offence by this but I think you were a bit to quick here.

First of all, I was actually in a discussion with an Orthodox on this very forum that got me looking into Orthodox and confession. It is seen as a healing and so on, but because there are no distinction between mortal and venial sin there is no necessity in it. A prayer to God is also part of the Sacrament of Confession. Maybe we need to look more into it, but I kinda agree with their take. It helps (as I always agreed) it is not an essential, as they also seem to say.

Secondly, I can agree on the importance, not on the absolute necessity.

Hope it is more clear

Hi Michael.

So a Orthodox told you they dont actually need to confess to a priest? I’m confused as I know they go to confession regularly…then again, they have their own internal schisms so it depends, i guess, on who we are talking about.(Greek, Russian, etc, etc)

And we have a prayer of contrition as well during confession, and as you know, we also confess generally, venial sins during Mass.

 

[MichaelP3]

Let me preface this by saying that I’m not Orthodox, so in any matter where I’m wrong, I welcome correction by someone who knows better. The following is my understanding:

The Orthodox don’t have a clear distinction between mortal and venial sin, that is true, but they do need to confess in order to appropriately approach the communion. As someone who’s not an Orthodox, I don’t know exactly how they determine when they need to confess, but they do. Unlike say, an Anglican, for whom private confession is optional, it is not so for the Orthodox.

I recently finished reading Anna Karenina, and there is a scene where the non-believer Levin is going to be married and needs to take communion before he can do so. He has to confess and get a certificate that he did so first!

The part of the book seems true. After the talk to the Orthodox person in another thread and my research, it seemed like the only truly needed time would be if you have fallen away from the Church or haven’t attended mass for a very long time (Which is the same thing I guess).

Thus I am not trying to be mean but I stand by my original statement.

 

[MichaelP3]

Hi Michael.

So a Orthodox told you they dont actually need to confess to a priest? I’m confused as I know they go to confession regularly…then again, they have their own internal schisms so it depends, i guess, on who we are talking about.(Greek, Russian, etc, etc)

And we have a prayer of contrition as well during confession, and as you know, we also confess generally, venial sins during Mass.

Hi LA

Yea I know all that. If you have any sources on Orthodox teaching I will be pleased. It is not that easy to find good sources.

Confessing regularly doesn’t mean they see it the same way. And yes, maybe one Priest somewhere believes that and tells them to do it. But that’s why I am asking for sources as for this moment I can find very few and we don’t have an abundance of Orthodox on here. And the nearest Orthodox Church is maybe 300 km away so I can’t personally ask an “expert”.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

1 John 5:16-17

1 John 5:16-17New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

**
Fairly accurate translation^^^**

1 John 5:16-17New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 If anyone sees his brother [a]committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

Here we have a misleading, inaccurate translation ^^^. If your bible has the pronoun (a) before “sin” in these verses, be advised it was added by a translator, most likely with their agenda. The NASB in particular has a highly Calvinist slant to it and I do not recommend anyone relying on it as your only source of scripture.

Pax

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi LA

we don’t have an abundance of Orthodox on here. And the nearest Orthodox Church is maybe 300 km away so I can’t personally ask an “expert”.

That’s too bad because that’s what I was going to recommend, talking directly with the nearest Orthodox priest.

 

[Dorothy]

All Christians I know about, except Catholics, believe in going to God directly.

This happens at every Mass, we go to God directly as a community, and acknowledge our sinfulness vocally, and silently.

As a Catholic I have found the sacrament of Reconciliation beneficial and healing, and make use of it regularly. I believe in the requirements of the Church, and if we are to minimize those requirements we lose out on many blessings.