Non-Catholics - What does the word "Sacrament" mean to you?

[Bbigam]

Bbigam,

I appreciate your comments regarding Methodist beliefs. Funny, I was just about to do an online search to compare Methodist, Lutheran, and Episcopal/Anglican beliefs regarding the Sacraments.

Congratulations on being “almost Catholic.”

Anna

Thanks! Just to clarify, I think that official Free Methodist beliefs are slightly different from official United Methodist beliefs - but I’m not sure on the details on the UM end.

 

[Anna_Scott]

IMO, the longer time goes on, the further Protestant doctrine deviates from original doctrine. All of the sacraments are evident in the writing of the early Church. It is the reason for this thread. I just think it is interesting to find the different meanings circulating around through the various churches.

SteveVH,

I know that much of the Episcopal liturgy is similar to the liturgy of a Catholic Mass.

The following are partial quotes from the Priest/Celebrant’s prayers for the Sacrament of the Eucharist. There is more before and after this part of the prayer; but this is the point, in which the Priest calls for the Holy Spirit to sanctify the bread and wine. I quoted two different variations of the prayer. Both are taken from the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer. I was just wondering how close this is to the Catholic Mass.

“. . . . .And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us, and, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, to bless and sanctify these gifts of bread and wine, that they may be unto us the Body and Blood of thy dearly-beloved Son Jesus Christ.

And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness to accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, whereby we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves, our souls and bodies. Grant, we beseech thee, that all who partake of this Holy Communion may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, and be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction; and also that we and all thy whole Church may be made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him; through the same Jesus Christ our Lord; by whom, and with whom, and in whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end.” . . . . .

Different version of the prayer:
“. . . . We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon these gives that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. In the fullness of time, put all things in subjection under your Christ and bring us to that heavenly country where, with the Blessed Virgin Mary, Blessed (our patron saint), and all your saints, we may enter the everlasting heritage of your sons and daughters; through Jesus Christ our Lord, the firstborn of all creation, the head of the Church, and the author of our salvation. By him, and with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit all honor and glory is yours, Almighty Father, now and for ever.” . . . .

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

I know that much of the Episcopal liturgy is similar to the liturgy of a Catholic Mass.

The following are partial quotes from the Priest/Celebrant’s prayers for the Sacrament of the Eucharist. There is more before and after this part of the prayer; but this is the point, in which the Priest calls for the Holy Spirit to sanctify the bread and wine. I quoted two different variations of the prayer. Both are taken from the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer. I was just wondering how close this is to the Catholic Mass.

“. . . . .And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us, and, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, to bless and sanctify these gifts of bread and wine, that they may be unto us the Body and Blood of thy dearly-beloved Son Jesus Christ.

And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness to accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, whereby we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves, our souls and bodies. Grant, we beseech thee, that all who partake of this Holy Communion may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, and be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction; and also that we and all thy whole Church may be made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him; through the same Jesus Christ our Lord; by whom, and with whom, and in whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end.” . . . . .

Different version of the prayer:
“. . . . We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon these gives that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. In the fullness of time, put all things in subjection under your Christ and bring us to that heavenly country where, with the Blessed Virgin Mary, Blessed (our patron saint), and all your saints, we may enter the everlasting heritage of your sons and daughters; through Jesus Christ our Lord, the firstborn of all creation, the head of the Church, and the author of our salvation. By him, and with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit all honor and glory is yours, Almighty Father, now and for ever.” . . . .

Anna

Before I make a comment on the similarities between the two Masses, it just occurred to me that I made a fairly sweeping generalization concerning “Protestant” churches which was not fair. I certainly acknowdedge the closeness which certain denominations have with Catholicism in their respective liturgies and beliefs (Episcopal, Anglican, Lutheran etc.). My point was that when we look at the time of the Reformation and the beliefs espoused (Luther even had a strong devotion to Mary) and compare them to “many” non-Catholic denominations of today, for the most part, non-liturgical faiths, they are worlds apart, to the point that many have never even heard the word “sacrament” mentioned. It seems to me that if any of these denominations actually looked into their roots they would see this. I think the idea of “sola scriptura” is the biggest culprit in this regard. They don’t realize that their belief system did come from somewhere other than their personal interpretation of scripture and that this belief system comes with many pre-conceived notions which inhibit an authentic interpretation. It becomes fallacy built upon fallacy. We “know” the Catholic Church is false, therefore anything the CC does, we should not. They have sacraments, thus we should not (must be some pagan thing). The richness and beauty of the original Church becomes so distant that it eventually becomes lost and continues to fade as time goes on.

It makes one wonder why Jesus went to the trouble of establishing a Church at all. It would have been a lot easier to hire a scribe to write down everything He wanted us to know and just hand it out (of course we didn’t have any printing presses at that time and the great majority of peole were illiterate anyway) but what the heck. The Church, obviously, is something much greater than just a source of information or Christ would have done something different. Sorry, I know I’m rambling here to some extent, just wanted to clear up my previous statement.

I’m not in a position at the moment to quote the Eucharistic prayers that we use but yes, they are very similar. I’ll provide our exact prayers as soon as I can, unless someone beats me to it.

God bless.

 

[AJTheMan]

Sacraments are the spiritual services carried out and performed by Catholic priests.

That’s always been my understanding.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Before I make a comment on the similarities between the two Masses, it just occurred to me. . . . .

SteveVH,

No pressure to quote the prayers from the Catholic Eucharist liturgy. I found a link to “The Catholic Liturgical Library” (will provide link later in this Thread.) I’m very interested in the differences; but if you think we should branch out to another Thread, just let me know. I will continue the discussion of the** Sacraments**, here, either way. I think this is such an important Thread.

I know this may sound incredibly ignorant, but before I starting attending the Episcopal Eucharist, I didn’t know how the “bread and wine” became “body and blood” of Christ, in a Sacramental Church. Sadly, I don’t think I was alone in my ignorance.

The first Episcopal Eucharist I attended was on the last Sunday of January, 2010. I’m still trying to understand each step of the Celebrant/Priest. On that first Sunday, I was trying to figure out what the Priest was doing, in preparing for the Eucharist. I could see the preparation of the alter, and was shocked when the Priest kissed some point on the alter. He was praying some prayers, quietly. Prayers were being said over water, which was poured over the Priest’s hands. These prayers were not said loud enough for the congregation to hear. So, I really wasn’t sure what was going on. I just knew that the service seemed just like a Catholic Mass I attended years ago.

In reading the Liturgy of the Catholic Eucharist, at the link cited below, I have a feeling those prayers said “quietly” by the Episcopal Priest are the same or very similar prayers as those prayed “quietly” by the Catholic Priest. The Catholic Eucharist sounds almost identical to both the actions of the Episcopal Priest and the liturgy of the Episcopal Eucharist.

Here is the link to “Liturgy of the Eucharist,” Catholic Liturgical Library (catholicliturgy.com):

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Text/Index/4/SubIndex/67/ContentIndex/11/Start/9

Before joining the CAF Forums, I didn’t know what the word “Eucharist” meant. Sad, but true. I think there are so many misunderstandings about the Sacraments.

In the Baptist Church, the word “Sacrament” is akin to a “dirty word.” So, most Baptists have a preconceived negative notion about Sacramental Churches, with little knowledge on which to base their bias. Baptists will not even accept Baptism from a Sacramental Church.

So, Threads like this are very important (thank you, Steve.) I just wish more Protestants, who do not believe in Sacraments, would join the discussion.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Before I make a comment on the similarities between the two Masses, it just occurred to me that I made a fairly sweeping generalization concerning “Protestant” churches which was not fair. I certainly acknowdedge the closeness which certain denominations have with Catholicism in their respective liturgies and beliefs (Episcopal, Anglican, Lutheran etc.).

My point was that when we look at the time of the Reformation and the beliefs espoused (Luther even had a strong devotion to Mary) and compare them to “many” non-Catholic denominations of today, for the most part, non-liturgical faiths, they are worlds apart, to the point that many have never even heard the word “sacrament” mentioned. It seems to me that if any of these denominations actually looked into their roots they would see this. I think the idea of “sola scriptura” is the biggest culprit in this regard. They don’t realize that their belief system did come from somewhere other than their personal interpretation of scripture and that this belief system comes with many pre-conceived notions which inhibit an authentic interpretation. It becomes fallacy built upon fallacy. We “know” the Catholic Church is false, therefore anything the CC does, we should not. They have sacraments, thus we should not (must be some pagan thing). The richness and beauty of the original Church becomes so distant that it eventually becomes lost and continues to fade as time goes on.

It makes one wonder why Jesus went to the trouble of establishing a Church at all. It would have been a lot easier to hire a scribe to write down everything He wanted us to know and just hand it out (of course we didn’t have any printing presses at that time and the great majority of peole were illiterate anyway) but what the heck. The Church, obviously, is something much greater than just a source of information or Christ would have done something different. Sorry, I know I’m rambling here to some extent, just wanted to clear up my previous statement.

I’m not in a position at the moment to quote the Eucharistic prayers that we use but yes, they are very similar. I’ll provide our exact prayers as soon as I can, unless someone beats me to it.

God bless.

SteveVH,

You make an excellent point about the Protestant Reformation. Study of both Scripture and tradition lead me out of the Baptist Church. Just visiting an Episcopal Church is a big step for me (you know I have issues .)

Episcopal isn’t Catholic, but it is much closer to Apostolic Tradition than the Baptist Church. I think some good things came from the Reformation; but I think many bad things also came from the Reformation–in that Christian beliefs and practices went way beyond “reformation.” As time passed, many Protestants seemed to just “scrap” everything and reinvent the wheel. The tradition of the early Church was abandoned, and Christianity was “reinvented.”

So, now we have many Churches with a “watered-down” version of Christianity. I can personally testify to the fact that climbing out of a “watered-down” Church isn’t easy. As I have said before, one could drown in the sea of Protestant voices. That’s my comment on this sidebar.

Still working out my salvation in fear and trembling,
Anna

 

[crazzeto]

Thanks for posting that link Anna, that’s actually really convinent for me right now as I’m working on a “Missellet” for my wedding. Basically a full break down of Catholic Liturgical worship for the many many protestant family members (on her side) that will be at our wedding. I was working with the Roman Missle, but this website it quite a bit easier lol.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

No pressure to quote the prayers from the Catholic Eucharist liturgy. I found a link to “The Catholic Liturgical Library” (will provide link later in this Thread.) I’m very interested in the differences; but if you think we should branch out to another Thread, just let me know. I will continue the discussion of the** Sacraments**, here, either way. I think this is such an important Thread.

Anna, I would think this would be pertinent and appropriate to this thread. I think it would interesting for those who do celebrate the sacraments, to discover exactly what our differences are. One thing that just occurred to me is the question as to why there are any differences between Episcopal and Catholic, other than possibly authority as the Episcopal Church had its origen on the Anglican Church, and the Anglican Church was basically a result of a King wishing to divorce and re-marry. So the split was not doctrinal, they were Catholics caught in a political situation and forced to swear allegiance to the King rather than the Pope. I realize I have given a simplistic view here, but where and when did doctrinal differences begin surfacing between these two Churches. When did they reject the Catholic definition of transubstantiation? Maybe my lack of knowledge is showing here but if someone would humor me I’d really appreciate it.

 

[Palaeologos]

The first Episcopal Eucharist I attended was on the last Sunday of January, 2010. I’m still trying to understand each step of the Celebrant/Priest. On that first Sunday, I was trying to figure out what the Priest was doing, in preparing for the Eucharist. I could see the preparation of the alter, and was shocked when the Priest kissed some point on the alter. He was praying some prayers, quietly. Prayers were being said over water, which was poured over the Priest’s hands. These prayers were not said loud enough for the congregation to hear. So, I really wasn’t sure what was going on. I just knew that the service seemed just like a Catholic Mass I attended years ago.

Anna

Hi Anna–

As an Anglican (NOT Episcopal) priest, I might be able to shed some light on this.

If I am celebrating Mass on an altar that contains relics, or that has been blessed by a Bishop as part of the consecration of a church, then there are several points during the liturgy where the altar is kissed : 1) at the ascension of the altar steps at the beginning of Mass, 2) at the conclusion of the Gloria in excelsis, 3) at the beginning of the Offertory, 4) near the beginning of the Eucharistic Canon at the words “didst give thine only son Jesus Christ”, 5) near the end of the Canon at the words “…humbly beseeching thee…”, 5) before the Post-Communion prayers, and 6) before the benediction. (I think that’s complete, but don’t have a missal handy)

The words said during the handwashing are Ps 26:6-12, with the Gloria Patri appended. Perfectly Biblical, nothing to worry about there.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thanks for posting that link Anna, that’s actually really convinent for me right now as I’m working on a “Missellet” for my wedding. Basically a full break down of Catholic Liturgical worship for the many many protestant family members (on her side) that will be at our wedding. I was working with the Roman Missle, but this website it quite a bit easier lol.

Crazzeto,

I’m very often on the receiving end of information. I’m so glad to have provided something you find useful. It is a very interesting site. I was able to go through the liturgy of the Eucharist and compare it to the Episcopal Liturgy.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna–

As an Anglican (NOT Episcopal) priest, I might be able to shed some light on this.

If I am celebrating Mass on an altar that contains relics, or that has been blessed by a Bishop as part of the consecration of a church, then there are several points during the liturgy where the altar is kissed : 1) at the ascension of the altar steps at the beginning of Mass, 2) at the conclusion of the Gloria in excelsis, 3) at the beginning of the Offertory, 4) near the beginning of the Eucharistic Canon at the words “didst give thine only son Jesus Christ”, 5) near the end of the Canon at the words “…humbly beseeching thee…”, 5) before the Post-Communion prayers, and 6) before the benediction. (I think that’s complete, but don’t have a missal handy)

The words said during the handwashing are Ps 26:6-12, with the Gloria Patri appended. Perfectly Biblical, nothing to worry about there.

Palaeologos,

Thanks so much for the information. Yesterday, I did ask the Episcopal Priest why he kissed the alter. He said this came from the practice of kissing relics on the alter (corporal?) which really “freaked me out” a bit–no other way to say it. Especially since he used the example of the bone from the finger tip of a martyred Saint. Though now, it is a cross that is kissed; but not 5 times as you mentioned.

I’m really having a hard time with objects, relics, and icons. The Baptist Church only had a Cross in the Sanctuary. There are some pictures of Christ in the hallways, etc. Prior to attending the Episcopal Church, I had abandoned all icons and religious objects–a rather extreme view of “no graven images,” which is actually very common among Protestants. The Episcopal Priest did explain the difference between worship and “veneration.” I was doing fine with the Cross in the Episcopal Church, and even the Icons of The Blessed Virgin Mary, Jesus, John the Baptist, and our Patron Saint. But the relics are still an area of concern.

Is there anything you could tell me that would help me understand kissing relics during the Sacrament of the Eucharist? I would really appreciate your help.

Steve, this discussion of the Sacraments has taken a number of interesting turns. The Sacraments and the way they are celebrated and understood is really an important topic.

Anna

 

[Palaeologos]

Anna–

Well, I forgot one more point at which the altar is kissed : just before the Secret prayers, after the “Orate fratres”. This brings the total to 7.

My understanding is that relics are venerated because the person to whom they belonged was a saint. A saint is a person for whom the words of St Paul in Gal 2:20 (“I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me”) is an actuality. Therefore those relics are venerated for the same reason the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is thought of as being a holy place : a locus of the divine meeting the mortal. Whether this needs to go quite as far as medieval piety took it is another question, but it’s undeniable that relics of martyrs were venerated very early in the Christian church (see Henry Chadwick’s The Early Church for this).

As far as the number of sacraments : there are undeniably seven. There is no question that the two instituted by Christ (Baptism & the Eucharist) are the most important, but even the 39 Articles don’t contradict that the other five are sacraments–it only says that they weren’t instituted by Jesus himself.

 

[SteveVH]

Anna–

Well, I forgot one more point at which the altar is kissed : just before the Secret prayers, after the “Orate fratres”. This brings the total to 7.

My understanding is that relics are venerated because the person to whom they belonged was a saint. A saint is a person for whom the words of St Paul in Gal 2:20 (“I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me”) is an actuality. Therefore those relics are venerated for the same reason the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is thought of as being a holy place : a locus of the divine meeting the mortal. Whether this needs to go quite as far as medieval piety took it is another question, but it’s undeniable that relics of martyrs were venerated very early in the Christian church (see Henry Chadwick’s The Early Church for this).

As far as the number of sacraments : there are undeniably seven. There is no question that the two instituted by Christ (Baptism & the Eucharist) are the most important, but even the 39 Articles don’t contradict that the other five are sacraments–it only says that they weren’t instituted by Jesus himself.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, I would think this would be pertinent and appropriate to this thread. I think it would interesting for those who do celebrate the sacraments, to discover exactly what our differences are.

Thanks, Steve.

One thing that just occurred to me is the question as to why there are any differences between Episcopal and Catholic, other than possibly authority as the Episcopal Church had its origen on the Anglican Church, and the Anglican Church was basically a result of a King wishing to divorce and re-marry. So the split was not doctrinal, they were Catholics caught in a political situation and forced to swear allegiance to the King rather than the Pope.

I realize I have given a simplistic view here, but where and when did doctrinal differences begin surfacing between these two Churches. When did they reject the Catholic definition of transubstantiation? Maybe my lack of knowledge is showing here but if someone would humor me I’d really appreciate it.

I’ll defer to the Episcopal and Anglican forum members to answer the question of how some of the Reformed doctrines entered the Anglican Church. I want to know too. You’ve asked a vital question, Steve. Sometimes were are so busy declaring what we believe, we forget to uncover how the doctrines were born.

I’ve been studying as much as I can, and am attending classes at the Episcopal Church. You know that I am a “work in progress.”

I am aware of the political reasons for the split; but I don’t have enough history under my belt to comment on how some of the “Reformed” doctrines entered the Anglican Church.

As I said before, some Episcopal Churches adhere more strictly to the 39 Articles outlined in The Book of Common Prayer. The Episcopal Church, I am attending, seems less “Reformed”; and the Priest seems to have some Eastern Orthodox “leanings.” He celebrates the Eucharist in a way that is almost identical to the Catholic Eucharist. He does reserve consecrated bread and wine to be administered to those who are home-bound or ill. The consecrated bread and wine are never disposed of. They are always consumed.

Even though the Articles say the consecrated bread and wine are not to be “reserved” or “carried about,” they are in this particular Church. Sorry for the repetition.

The Priest says not to worry about transubstantiation–that he does not get into the Aristotelian view of substance and matter; but says the important thing is, during these Sacraments, “God shows up.” This is a good simple explanation of the Sacraments for people like me coming from the Baptist Church.

As I posted before, he said just as he has faith that Christ is both man and God; he has faith that the bread and wine are both “bread and wine” and the “body and blood” of Christ.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna–

Well, I forgot one more point at which the altar is kissed : just before the Secret prayers, after the “Orate fratres”. This brings the total to 7.

My understanding is that relics are venerated because the person to whom they belonged was a saint. A saint is a person for whom the words of St Paul in Gal 2:20 (“I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me”) is an actuality. Therefore those relics are venerated for the same reason the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is thought of as being a holy place : a locus of the divine meeting the mortal. Whether this needs to go quite as far as medieval piety took it is another question, but it’s undeniable that relics of martyrs were venerated very early in the Christian church (see Henry Chadwick’s The Early Church for this).

As far as the number of sacraments : there are undeniably seven. There is no question that the two instituted by Christ (Baptism & the Eucharist) are the most important, but even the 39 Articles don’t contradict that the other five are sacraments–it only says that they weren’t instituted by Jesus himself.

Palaeologos,

Appreciate the information–very, very helpful. I think the example of the bone from a martyred saint was from an earlier point in history.

I’ll check out the book you recommended. Thanks so much!

Anna

 

[TriuneUnity]

I am aware of the political reasons for the split; but I don’t have enough history under my belt to comment on how some of the “Reformed” doctrines entered the Anglican Church.

Largely as a result of the reign of Mary, when Anglican exiles, under persecution fled from England and traveled to Geneva for religious protection. They came under the influence of John Calvin, who was teaching in Geneva at this time. They absorbed continental Reformed theology and brought it back to England with them and from there they entered the Anglican clergy under Elizabeth. The 39 Articles of 1563 are a result of this influx. In many ways, Elizabeth moved the church back toward its episcopal roots and the more Calvinistic members eventually broke away and formed Presbyterianism. There’s always been a small contingent of Reformed people within Anglicanism, though.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, I would think this would be pertinent and appropriate to this thread. I think it would interesting for those who do celebrate the sacraments, to discover exactly what our differences are. One thing that just occurred to me is the question as to why there are any differences between Episcopal and Catholic, other than possibly authority as the Episcopal Church had its origen on the Anglican Church, and the Anglican Church was basically a result of a King wishing to divorce and re-marry. So the split was not doctrinal, they were Catholics caught in a political situation and forced to swear allegiance to the King rather than the Pope. I realize I have given a simplistic view here, but where and when did doctrinal differences begin surfacing between these two Churches. When did they reject the Catholic definition of transubstantiation? Maybe my lack of knowledge is showing here but if someone would humor me I’d really appreciate it.

Steve,

Here is the link to The 1979 U.S. Book of Common Prayer: justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/formatted_1979.htm.

Scroll down to the Eucharist, and you will find the liturgy. The prayers I quoted from the Episcopal Eucharist are from Rite Two. There is a Rite One and Rite Two Eucharist every Sunday. I haven’t attended the Rite One service, yet (it’s at 7:45 a.m. so early!)

Largely as a result of the reign of Mary, when Anglican exiles, under persecution fled from England and traveled to Geneva for religious protection. They came under the influence of John Calvin, who was teaching in Geneva at this time. They absorbed continental Reformed theology and brought it back to England with them and from there they entered the Anglican clergy under Elizabeth. The 39 Articles of 1563 are a result of this influx. In many ways, Elizabeth moved the church back toward its episcopal roots and the more Calvinistic members eventually broke away and formed Presbyterianism. There’s always been a small contingent of Reformed people within Anglicanism, though.

TriuneUnity,

Very interesting. Is Lutheran doctrine more or less “Reformed” than Episcopal doctrine?

I have so much studying to do. Seems like the more I read, the more I realize what I don’t know.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[Palaeologos]

Largely as a result of the reign of Mary, when Anglican exiles, under persecution fled from England and traveled to Geneva for religious protection. They came under the influence of John Calvin, who was teaching in Geneva at this time. They absorbed continental Reformed theology and brought it back to England with them and from there they entered the Anglican clergy under Elizabeth. The 39 Articles of 1563 are a result of this influx. In many ways, Elizabeth moved the church back toward its episcopal roots and the more Calvinistic members eventually broke away and formed Presbyterianism. There’s always been a small contingent of Reformed people within Anglicanism, though.

Well, actually “Reformed” ideas were in the C of E since Edward VI. That’s the point at which the more radical Protestants among the English clergy (Cranmer, Latimer, Ridley, et al.) started to push their agenda more heavily. Henry (who really wanted State Catholicism a la Their Catholic Majesties of Spain) was gone, Edward was sickly, and he’d been well catechized by his Lutheran-leaning guardians. And the service of Holy Communion in the 1552 BCP is almost Zwinglian in its iconoclastic simplicity–quite a departure from the 1549, which was much more Catholic in its form (most of the Eucharistic Prayer in the 1552 is said after the elements have been consumed by the congregation, and the words “the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ” are not spoken by the minister as he administers them).

Cranmer was pretty much always Reformed–he just had to hide it under Henry VIII. See Diarmaid McCulloch’s biography, which is quite enlightening.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Steve,

Here are the two links to compare the Catholic and Episcopal liturgy of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

Eucharist-Catholic liturgy:
“Liturgy of the Eucharist,” Catholic Liturgical Library (catholicliturgy.com):
catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Text/Index/4/SubIndex/67/ContentIndex/11/Start/9

Eucharist-Episcopal liturgy:
Link to The 1979 U.S. Book of Common Prayer: justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/formatted_1979.htm.
Scroll down to the Eucharist, and you will find the liturgy for Rite 1 and 2. There is a Rite 1 and Rite 2 Episcopal Eucharist, every Sunday.

This prayer, which I quoted in an earlier post, is from the Episcopal Eucharist Rite 2.

“. . . . We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon these gives that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. In the fullness of time, put all things in subjection under your Christ and bring us to that heavenly country where, with the Blessed Virgin Mary, Blessed (our patron saint), and all your saints, we may enter the everlasting heritage of your sons and daughters; through Jesus Christ our Lord, the firstborn of all creation, the head of the Church, and the author of our salvation. By him, and with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit all honor and glory is yours, Almighty Father, now and for ever.” . . . .

I’m really interested in you comments, if you have a chance to look at the Episcopal liturgy. No rush.

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Largely as a result of the reign of Mary, when Anglican exiles, under persecution fled from England and traveled to Geneva for religious protection. They came under the influence of John Calvin, who was teaching in Geneva at this time. They absorbed continental Reformed theology and brought it back to England with them and from there they entered the Anglican clergy under Elizabeth. The 39 Articles of 1563 are a result of this influx. In many ways, Elizabeth moved the church back toward its episcopal roots and the more Calvinistic members eventually broke away and formed Presbyterianism. There’s always been a small contingent of Reformed people within Anglicanism, though.

Wow! Thanks for the info. That makes so much sense.