Non-Catholics - What does the word "Sacrament" mean to you?

[Palaeologos]

What is the purpose of keeping the “hosts” in the tabernacle?

Anna

So that Communion can be taken to the sick and housebound. Usually a priest will consecrate some extra ones at Mass, both for those who might arrive after the consecration (or in case there was a miscount of the congregation). At least, I do!

 

[TriuneUnity]

So that Communion can be taken to the sick and housebound. Usually a priest will consecrate some extra ones at Mass, both for those who might arrive after the consecration (or in case there was a miscount of the congregation). At least, I do!

May I ask which Anglican church body your parish is affiliated with?

 

[TheosisM]

What is the purpose of keeping the “hosts” in the tabernacle?

Anna

Paleo gave a good answer. Sometimes the “extra” consecrated hosts will also be brought out to supplement those on the altar. A reserved host can also be placed in a monstrance for Adoration and Benediction.

 

[Palaeologos]

May I ask which Anglican church body your parish is affiliated with?

Certainly. It’s the Anglican Province of Christ the King.

 

[SteveVH]

"AnnaScott:

What is the purpose of keeping the “hosts” in the tabernacle?

Anna

So that Communion can be taken to the sick and housebound. Usually a priest will consecrate some extra ones at Mass, both for those who might arrive after the consecration (or in case there was a miscount of the congregation). At least, I do!

In the Catholic Church extra hosts are also reserved for the sick and homebound, but not only for that reason. At least one host is left in the tabernacle at all times, with the exception of Good Friday, (actually beginning the evening of Holy Thursday) when it is removed and reserved in a seperate tabernacle outside of the sanctuary. It is returned on Saturday for the Easter Vigil and remains until Holy Thursday the following year. The consecrated host is always in the Church so that Christ’s sacramental (real) presence is always in the Church. A candle (in red glass) burns perpetually next to the tabernacle as a sign that the consecrated host is present.

One difference between the Catholic and Anglican liturgies is that if you arrive after the consecration you are not suppose to receive. In fact, if you arrive after the homily you shouldn’t receive. The actual enforcement of this rule probably varies widely depending on the priest in any particular parish. The Mass is basically broken down into the liturgy of the Word (the readings and homily) and the liturgy of the Eucharist (consecration and communion). We believe we are fed by both and so you either attend the whole Mass or not at all. Still, the similarities between Anglican, Episcopalian, Lutheran and Catholic liturgies far outweigh the differences and originate from the same source.

 

[Anna_Scott]

So that Communion can be taken to the sick and housebound. Usually a priest will consecrate some extra ones at Mass, both for those who might arrive after the consecration (or in case there was a miscount of the congregation). At least, I do!

Paleo gave a good answer. Sometimes the “extra” consecrated hosts will also be brought out to supplement those on the altar. A reserved host can also be placed in a monstrance for Adoration and Benediction.

In the Catholic Church extra hosts are also reserved for the sick and homebound, but not only for that reason. At least one host is left in the tabernacle at all times, with the exception of Good Friday, (actually beginning the evening of Holy Thursday) when it is removed and reserved in a seperate tabernacle outside of the sanctuary. It is returned on Saturday for the Easter Vigil and remains until Holy Thursday the following year. The consecrated host is always in the Church so that Christ’s sacramental (real) presence is always in the Church. A candle (in red glass) burns perpetually next to the tabernacle as a sign that the consecrated host is present.

One difference between the Catholic and Anglican liturgies is that if you arrive after the consecration you are not suppose to receive. In fact, if you arrive after the homily you shouldn’t receive. The actual enforcement of this rule probably varies widely depending on the priest in any particular parish. The Mass is basically broken down into the liturgy of the Word (the readings and homily) and the liturgy of the Eucharist (consecration and communion). We believe we are fed by both and so you either attend the whole Mass or not at all. Still, the similarities between Anglican, Episcopalian, Lutheran and Catholic liturgies far outweigh the differences and originate from the same source.

Palaeologos, TheosisM, SteveVH,

Thank you all so much for answering my question about reservation of the Hosts. I need to ask about the practice at the Episcopal Church; because there is a candle, with red glass, always burning in both the Sanctuary and the Chapel. I was wondering what that represented. Though I thought the Rector said all the reserved hosts are consumed on Good Friday–I need to check on that. So much new information.

I just read the wikipedia article on the Monstrance. Very interesting, though a little scary for this former Baptist. That and the relics are difficult for me. There really are many components of the Sacraments.

However, you are right, Steve, the similarities do far outweigh the differences.

Anna

 

[crazzeto]

Palaeologos, TheosisM, SteveVH,

Thank you all so much for answering my question about reservation of the Hosts. I need to ask about the practice at the Episcopal Church; because there is a candle, with red glass, always burning in both the Sanctuary and the Chapel. I was wondering what that represented. Though I thought the Rector said all the reserved hosts are consumed on Good Friday–I need to check on that. So much new information.

I just read the wikipedia article on the Monstrance. Very interesting, though a little scary for this former Baptist. That and the relics are difficult for me. There really are many components of the Sacraments.

You are right, Steve, the similarities do far outweigh the differences.

Anna

Did you know that the veneration of relecs is a uniquly Christian thing Anna? I bet in your S. Baptist upbringing they probably tried to teach you it was some form of “roman invention” or “falling back to peganism in the Roman church”. Not so, and actually it’s a very ironic argument. It was in fact, the pegan Romans them selves who were disgusted by the Christian practice of the veneration of sacrade relics. Julian the Apostate who tried converting the empire back to peganism frequently complained of the Christian veneration of relics.

In their world view, death was something to be feared and kept as far away as possible. You burned or burried the body and moved on, and stopped thinking about it. Of course, in Christendom death loses, we are not seperated from Christ as Paul says in Romans 8:38-39.

Just food for thought

 

[Anna_Scott]

Did you know that the veneration of relecs is a uniquly Christian thing Anna? I bet in your S. Baptist upbringing they probably tried to teach you it was some form of “roman invention” or “falling back to peganism in the Roman church”. Not so, and actually it’s a very ironic argument. It was in fact, the pegan Romans them selves who were disgusted by the Christian practice of the veneration of sacrade relics. Julian the Apostate who tried converting the empire back to peganism frequently complained of the Christian veneration of relics.

In their world view, death was something to be feared and kept as far away as possible. You burned or burried the body and moved on, and stopped thinking about it. Of course, in Christendom death loses, we are not seperated from Christ as Paul says in Romans 8:38-39.

Just food for thought

Crazzeto,

I appreciate your comments. No, I didn’t know the veneration of relics is a uniquely Christian practice. You are right, many Protestant Churches consider the veneration of relics a pagan practice.

. . . . .My understanding is that relics are venerated because the person to whom they belonged was a saint. A saint is a person for whom the words of St Paul in Gal 2:20 (“I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me”) is an actuality. Therefore those relics are venerated for the same reason the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is thought of as being a holy place : a locus of the divine meeting the mortal. Whether this needs to go quite as far as medieval piety took it is another question, but it’s undeniable that relics of martyrs were venerated very early in the Christian church (see Henry Chadwick’s The Early Church for this).

I still don’t quite understand how a relic can be a “locus of the divine meeting the mortal.” Is the relic considered a symbol of the divine, or is there believed to be a divine “spark” in the relic? And then, what does kissing a relic during the Eucharist accomplish for the Sacrament? Does this have to do with the Communion of/with the Saints?

Guess I really need to read Henry Chadwick.

Struggling with things today,
Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Crazzeto,

I appreciate your comments. No, I didn’t know the veneration of relics is a uniquely Christian practice. You are right, many Protestant Churches consider the veneration of relics a pagan practice.

I still don’t quite understand how a relic can be a “locus of the divine meeting the mortal.” Is the relic considered a symbol of the divine, or is there believed to be a divine “spark” in the relic? And then, what does kissing a relic during the Eucharist accomplish for the Sacrament? Does this have to do with the Communion of/with the Saints?

Guess I really need to read Henry Chadwick.

Struggling with things today,
Anna

The relic thing really can seem strange especially if I back away from Catholicism and try to imagine hearing about it for the first time. It seems to border on the morbid in some cases (bone, hair etc.) but really isn’t. Pieces of clothing are also used as relics.
What I am going to tell you is off the top of my head. If you remember the Ark of the Covenant and what it contained, you will see that these were holy “things” touched by God. It was so holy that if you touched the Ark you would die. It is basically the same idea. Relics are holy “things” touched by God. Some relics have proven to be miraculous and have produce healings and conversions. Remember, people were healed when Peter’s shadow fell upon them as he walked by without even touching them. People reached to touch the hem of Christ’s robe and were healed. This is all done by the power of God and is a sign that these saints are not dead, but alive as the Body of Christ.

If you want to delve into the really mysterious, read about the “incorruptibles”. These are saints whose bodies do not decay, even after hundreds of years. Some of them have the scent of roses and the skin is supple. They are available for viewing by anyone and of course have been investigated by the medical community for the presence of any preservative chemicals. Again, a sign of life in Christ. (Probably got off the path a little there.).

It is not absoulutely necessary for the altar to contain a relic. Now days, if you are fortunate enough to have a relic it is placed under the altar, rather than in the altar just as Peter’s bones are located under the altar in St. Peter’s Basillica. It is my understanding that the altar is kissed because it represents Christ as both victim and priest and is the altar of His sacrifice. The book of the Gospels is also kissed because it contains the very words of our Lord. I’ll find some better information for you as soon as I have a little time to pull it together.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The relic thing really can seem strange especially if I back away from Catholicism and try to imagine hearing about it for the first time. It seems to border on the morbid in some cases (bone, hair etc.) but really isn’t. Pieces of clothing are also used as relics.
What I am going to tell you is off the top of my head. If you remember the Ark of the Covenant and what it contained, you will see that these were holy “things” touched by God. It was so holy that if you touched the Ark you would die. It is basically the same idea. Relics are holy “things” touched by God. Some relics have proven to be miraculous and have produce healings and conversions. Remember, people were healed when Peter’s shadow fell upon them as he walked by without even touching them. People reached to touch the hem of Christ’s robe and were healed. This is all done by the power of God and is a sign that these saints are not dead, but alive as the Body of Christ.

If you want to delve into the really mysterious, read about the “incorruptibles”. These are saints whose bodies do not decay, even after hundreds of years. Some of them have the scent of roses and the skin is supple. They are available for viewing by anyone and of course have been investigated by the medical community for the presence of any preservative chemicals. Again, a sign of life in Christ. (Probably got off the path a little there.).

It is not absoulutely necessary for the altar to contain a relic. Now days, if you are fortunate enough to have a relic it is placed under the altar, rather than in the altar just as Peter’s bones are located under the altar in St. Peter’s Basillica. It is my understanding that the altar is kissed because it represents Christ as both victim and priest and is the altar of His sacrifice. The book of the Gospels is also kissed because it contains the very words of our Lord. I’ll find some better information for you as soon as I have a little time to pull it together.

SteveVH,

As always, I am grateful for your help. The Episcopal Priest did say it is a cross on the alter that he kisses during the Eucharist, in reverence to Christ and His sacrifice–though he did tell me about relics, as I noted in another post (i.e. bone fragment of martyred Saint.)

This is all new to me, and it does seem strange and somewhat scary, especially having come from the Baptist Church, which is an extreme in the opposite direction.

Since, I am very open about my journey; there are times when I feel rather “exposed.”

At the same time, I have received so much help, here at CAF. Again, I am very grateful.

Thanks for your help and kindness,
Anna

 

[Palaeologos]

I still don’t quite understand how a relic can be a “locus of the divine meeting the mortal.” Is the relic considered a symbol of the divine, or is there believed to be a divine “spark” in the relic? And then, what does kissing a relic during the Eucharist accomplish for the Sacrament? Does this have to do with the Communion of/with the Saints?

Guess I really need to read Henry Chadwick.

A saint is a person who is touched by God. (Of course, all of us who have “put on Christ” are so touched, but the saints are heroic examples.) Also, the altar itself is a place where the divine and the mortal meet : “Christ our God to earth descendeth, our full homage to demand.”

Chadwick doesn’t really explain the whole theology of relics; I cited him because he attests to the antiquity of the practice of their veneration. But The Early Church is well worth reading on its own merits, because it’s a well-written and balanced overview of the first few centuries of Christianity.

 

[Anna_Scott]

A saint is a person who is touched by God. (Of course, all of us who have “put on Christ” are so touched, but the saints are heroic examples.) Also, the altar itself is a place where the divine and the mortal meet : “Christ our God to earth descendeth, our full homage to demand.”

Chadwick doesn’t really explain the whole theology of relics; I cited him because he attests to the antiquity of the practice of their veneration. But The Early Church is well worth reading on its own merits, because it’s a well-written and balanced overview of the first few centuries of Christianity.

Palaeologos,

I appreciate the information. Even hearing the explanations about relics, it is still difficult to embrace this idea of a place where the “divine and mortal meet.” It is just so foreign to all that I have been taught since childhood. It may take some time to adjust.

Thanks,

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Palaeologos,

I appreciate the information. Even hearing the explanations about relics, it is still difficult to embrace this idea of a place where the “divine and mortal meet.” It is just so foreign to all that I have been taught since childhood. It may take some time to adjust.

Thanks,

Anna

Anna, I would just say take your time and don’t accept anything until you feel that you can. Investigate everything, even from a suspicious point of view. If you were investigating the Catholic faith that is the advise I would give you at our first RCIA meeting. I am so confident that if the faith is investigated from a “devils advocate” stance, while remaining intellectually honest, you will find the truth. That is what Cardinal Henry Newman did. Henry was very high in the Anglican Church. His motive for studying the history of the Catholic Church was to prove it wrong. He ended up converting himself.

There are going to be more than a few things that are foreign to you just because you haven’t been exposed to them. I would just say don’t dismiss anything out of hand, but explore its validity. You seem so open to finding truth Anna. You have opened the door that Christ is knocking on which is your heart. I’m very excited for you on your journey.

God bless you.

Steve

 

[crazzeto]

Anna, I would just say take your time and don’t accept anything until you feel that you can. Investigate everything, even from a suspicious point of view. If you were investigating the Catholic faith that is the advise I would give you at our first RCIA meeting. I am so confident that if the faith is investigated from a “devils advocate” stance, while remaining intellectually honest, you will find the truth. That is what Cardinal Henry Newman did. Henry was very high in the Anglican Church. His motive for studying the history of the Catholic Church was to prove it wrong. He ended up converting himself.

There are going to be more than a few things that are foreign to you just because you haven’t been exposed to them. I would just say don’t dismiss anything out of hand, but explore its validity. You seem so open to finding truth Anna. You have opened the door that Christ is knocking on which is your heart. I’m very excited for you on your journey.

God bless you.

Steve

That’s terrific advice Steve, and I too am absoulutely confident that if one seeks the truth in honesty, even if their goals are to disprove the Church (like Newman), they will end up converted.

Anna, beleive it or not despite some of your reservations you’re doing a supremely wonderful job on your Journey. Be skeptical, be inquisitive (as you are) and be open (as you are). I have all the condience in the world that when your ready, things will just fall into place.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, I would just say take your time and don’t accept anything until you feel that you can. Investigate everything, even from a suspicious point of view. If you were investigating the Catholic faith that is the advise I would give you at our first RCIA meeting. I am so confident that if the faith is investigated from a “devils advocate” stance, while remaining intellectually honest, you will find the truth. That is what Cardinal Henry Newman did. Henry was very high in the Anglican Church. His motive for studying the history of the Catholic Church was to prove it wrong. He ended up converting himself.

There are going to be more than a few things that are foreign to you just because you haven’t been exposed to them. I would just say don’t dismiss anything out of hand, but explore its validity. You seem so open to finding truth Anna. You have opened the door that Christ is knocking on which is your heart. I’m very excited for you on your journey.

God bless you.

Steve

Steve,

Thanks for such good advise. I have a great deal of studying to do. I know this will take time. Some days I move forward in leaps. Other days, I take a step or two backwards. I pray God will be patient with me. I am seeking His Truth. I have faith that He will lead me to that truth.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[crazzeto]

Steve,

Thanks for such good advise. I have a great deal of studying to do. I know this will take time. Some days I move forward in leaps. Other days, I take a step or two backwards. I pray God will be patient with me. I am seeking His Truth. I have faith that He will lead me to that truth.

In Christ,
Anna

Anna, this program might help you out some:

E-Sword
e-sword.net/

It’s a free bible reading program, it’s written by someone who seems to be an Evangelical baptist, but hey it’s pretty good and it’s free It does offer access to a pretty good variety of bibles, even the Douay Rheims which I like. The only thing I don’t like is it reorders all Psalms according the Hebrew numbering favored by Protistants. This is a real problem as the Douay orders according to the Greek Septuigent, and the Haydock commentary (you can dl off e-sword-users) doesn’t line up. But besides that it’s pretty good.

Of most use to you, if you go to download menus, then “extras” you can download a 9 volumn set of the Anti-Niecean fathers. I think this is going to be extrodenarly helpful to you on your journey. These guys are the earliest Christians, the very same guys who were beheaded, burned to death, hung on crosses or fed to beasts for their faith.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, this program might help you out some:

E-Sword
e-sword.net/

It’s a free bible reading program, it’s written by someone who seems to be an Evangelical baptist, but hey it’s pretty good and it’s free It does offer access to a pretty good variety of bibles, even the Douay Rheims which I like. The only thing I don’t like is it reorders all Psalms according the Hebrew numbering favored by Protistants. This is a real problem as the Douay orders according to the Greek Septuigent, and the Haydock commentary (you can dl off e-sword-users) doesn’t line up. But besides that it’s pretty good.

Of most use to you, if you go to download menus, then “extras” you can download a 9 volumn set of the Anti-Niecean fathers. I think this is going to be extrodenarly helpful to you on your journey. These guys are the earliest Christians, the very same guys who were beheaded, burned to death, hung on crosses or fed to beasts for their faith.

crazzeto,

Thanks crazzeto. It’s funny, I provided the Catholic Liturgy Library and you provided this Protestant study website.

I checked out the link, and it looks like it would be very helpful. It seems to be a well organized website. Will let you know how it works out. I am especially interested in the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

Thanks crazzeto!

Anna