Non-Catholics - What does the word "Sacrament" mean to you?

[SteveVH]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines “Sacrament” as follows:

“An efficacious sign of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit. The sacraments (called ‘mysteries’ in the Eastern Churches) are seven in number: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance or Reconciliation, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.”

I have heard of Baptism being described as an ordinance (not absolutely necessary) or a profession of faith. As Catholics we believe the sacraments are the means of acquiring God’s grace, that they have a real, necessary, salvific, supernatural effect upon our soul. What say you?

 

[cheese_sdc]

I believe the Sacraments and sacramentals are where the Divine intersects with the physical in a very real way.

 

[SteveVH]

I believe the Sacraments and sacramentals are where the Divine intersects with the physical in a very real way.

Do you believe in the seven sacraments of the CC? I’ve never heard of a “Cheesian”. In any event, I would agree with your statement.

 

[Moscati]

In my evangelical church growing up, we didn’t talk about “sacraments”, per se. That was a Catholic word, so we didn’t use it, and we didn’t have any parallel vocabulary.

Baptism was a profession of faith, an “outward sign of an inward change”, and marriage was just marriage–a blessing, to be sure, and something to be celebrated, but it wasn’t supposed to have any effect on the soul, that I remember. Our church did anoint the sick, and ordain ministers, but the idea that these had any salvific effect was not present. Faith alone, and all that. Hence baptism could be postponed for years, or skipped altogether (my brother has still never been baptized). It’s very different.

 

[Matariel]

I grew up as an “Evangelical”. We never used the word “sacrament”. We did not even use the word “ordinance” except later on, when that word was put in the bylaws of that independent congregation. On the popular level, they referred to Baptism and their communion as exactly that— Baptism and communion.

Personally, I was baptized in a large steel horse trough (when we were Nazarene Protestants). I don’t remember what their communion was like. In my later years, when my family attended an independent congregation. There was a long plastic table, the kind with retractable legs, set up at the front on the platform where the pulpit usually sat, and a tablecloth was thrown over it and then squarish cubes of bread and a jug of grapejuice were put on it. The minister then read some Scripture (interestingly, not the words of Consecration like Catholic priests say in the Mass) and then a man and a woman would hand out little glasses of the grapejuice and the cubes of bread. After their communion was over, the leftover grapejuice was put back in the refrigerator for the kids in sundayschool to have with their cookies, and the cubes were either thrown away or gobbled up by the kids.

In that congregation, they view their communion as “a time for one to be especially close to the Lord”. It was not considered a sacrament or even an ordinance.

But now I’m Catholic. Believe me, it’s a whole 'nother ball game.

 

[SteveVH]

I grew up as an “Evangelical”. We never used the word “sacrament”. We did not even use the word “ordinance” except later on, when that word was put in the bylaws of that independent congregation. On the popular level, they referred to Baptism and their communion as exactly that— Baptism and communion.

Personally, I was baptized in a large steel horse trough (when we were Nazarene Protestants). I don’t remember what their communion was like. In my later years, when my family attended an independent congregation. There was a long plastic table, the kind with retractable legs, set up at the front on the platform where the pulpit usually sat, and a tablecloth was thrown over it and then squarish cubes of bread and a jug of grapejuice were put on it. The minister then read some Scripture (interestingly, not the words of Consecration like Catholic priests say in the Mass) and then a man and a woman would hand out little glasses of the grapejuice and the cubes of bread. After their communion was over, the leftover grapejuice was put back in the refrigerator for the kids in sundayschool to have with their cookies, and the cubes were either thrown away or gobbled up by the kids.

In that congregation, they view their communion as “a time for one to be especially close to the Lord”. It was not considered a sacrament or even an ordinance.

But now I’m Catholic. Believe me, it’s a whole 'nother ball game.

You know, I think it probably was “a time for one to be especially close to the Lord”. But you said it, the Eucharist is “a whole 'nother ball game.”

 

[Lutheranteach]

For me, a sacrament is something:
A) specifically commanded by Christ;
B) a promise of grace, and;
C) is accompanied by an earthly element.

 

[TriuneUnity]

For me, a sacrament is something:
A) specifically commanded by Christ;
B) a promise of grace, and;
C) is accompanied by an earthly element.

Ditto to the above. It is the grace of justification (the forgiveness of sins) conveyed through physical means. The means of grace. However, as Lutherans, we don’t define marriage, absolution, confirmation, holy orders, or the anointing of the sick as sacraments. Holy absolution is a means of grace that gives the forgiveness of sins, but lacks a visible earthly element and is therefore not defined as a sacrament.

 

[Matariel]

Ditto to the above. It is the grace of justification (the forgiveness of sins) conveyed through physical means. The means of grace. However, as Lutherans, we don’t define marriage, absolution, confirmation, holy orders, or the anointing of the sick as sacraments. Holy absolution is a means of grace that gives the forgiveness of sins, but lacks a visible earthly element and is therefore not defined as a sacrament.

We Catholics believe the absolving words of the priest to constitute the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[TriuneUnity]

We Catholics believe the absolving words of the priest to constitute the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

It is certainly a means of grace. I wouldn’t quibble with wanting to call it a sacrament. Many Lutherans do. The important thing is that it is instituted by Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

What is the difference, in Catholic belief, between the absolution given after the confession of sins at Mass and private confession?

 

[Matariel]

It is certainly a means of grace. I wouldn’t quibble with wanting to call it a sacrament. Many Lutherans do. The important thing is that it is instituted by Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

What is the difference, in Catholic belief, between the absolution given after the confession of sins at Mass and private confession?

The former remits venial sin while private confession remits mortal and venial sin. However, in grave situations (soldiers about to go to the battlefield, imminent death, not enough time to hear all confessions) general absolution can be given, which remits mortal sin; but if one survives they should head to private confession ASAP.

 

[Moscati]

There was a long plastic table, the kind with retractable legs, set up at the front on the platform where the pulpit usually sat, and a tablecloth was thrown over it and then squarish cubes of bread and a jug of grapejuice were put on it. The minister then read some Scripture (interestingly, not the words of Consecration like Catholic priests say in the Mass) and then a man and a woman would hand out little glasses of the grapejuice and the cubes of bread. After their communion was over, the leftover grapejuice was put back in the refrigerator for the kids in sundayschool to have with their cookies, and the cubes were either thrown away or gobbled up by the kids.

That brings back memories. We at least had a “communion table” specifically for the purpose. The church ladies broke Saltine crackers up in the kitchen ahead of time, and filled the little plastic cups with Welch’s. It all went on these silver platter things, which got covered with a white tablecloth until the right time after the sermon. The elders then came and folded up the tablecloth (rather ceremoniously, actually), ate and drank, and then the platters got passed from person to person like the offering basket.

I always wondered what they did with the leftovers. Some months the crackers were incredibly stale, so maybe they just kept putting them out there?

 

[cheese_sdc]

Do you believe in the seven sacraments of the CC? I’ve never heard of a “Cheesian”. In any event, I would agree with your statement.

I don’t know what you mean by “believe in”. I understand that Divinity is present and available in the Catholic Sacraments (no insult intended to other Christian traditions - I’ve just never experienced your Sacraments).

The issue I have with Catholic Sacraments is that you have to accept Catholicism and it’s understanding of Divinity in order to partake of them. I would still joyfully take Eucharist if that were not the case.

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t know what you mean by “believe in”. I understand that Divinity is present and available in the Catholic Sacraments (no insult intended to other Christian traditions - I’ve just never experienced your Sacraments).

The issue I have with Catholic Sacraments is that you have to accept Catholicism and it’s understanding of Divinity in order to partake of them. I would still joyfully take Eucharist if that were not the case.

I was surprised by your insight into the nature of a sacrament by stating that “the divine intersects with the physical in a very real way” and was just trying to gain a better understanding of where you are coming from as a non-Catholic. Do you understand the effects of each of the seven sacraments and why they are necessary?

By the way, how do you think your understanding of divinity differs from the Catholic view? We may not be that far apart. Anyway, I appreciate your comments and am very interested in your views.

God bless.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I was surprised by your insight into the nature of a sacrament by stating that “the divine intersects with the physical in a very real way” and was just trying to gain a better understanding of where you are coming from as a non-Catholic. Do you understand the effects of each of the seven sacraments and why they are necessary?

He made an interesting observation. I have always thought of the sacraments, like preaching the word, to be likened to an army invading hostile territory. Similar to when Jesus would cast out demons and heal the sick and then pronounce that the strong man has been bound. The army of the kingdom of God invades the fallen world to slowly, yard by yard, take back creation from its bondage to the Satanic realm. Every time sins are forgiven in Holy Baptism; everytime Christ’s body and blood enter the mouth of a sinner, every time Holy Absolution is pronounced, another citadel of Satan falls until the return of our King. Divine intersecting reality… you betcha.

 

[SteveVH]

He made an interesting observation. I have always thought of the sacraments, like preaching the word, to be likened to an army invading hostile territory. Similar to when Jesus would cast out demons and heal the sick and then pronounce that the strong man has been bound. The army of the kingdom of God invades the fallen world to slowly, yard by yard, take back creation from its bondage to the Satanic realm. Every time sins are forgiven in Holy Baptism; everytime Christ’s body and blood enter the mouth of a sinner, every time Holy Absolution is pronounced, another citadel of Satan falls until the return of our King. Divine intersecting reality… you betcha.

Thanks for your comments. Your analogy is more than an analogy, it is reality. We are in a constant battle against the evil one. Through Baptism we receive life; through the Eucharist we are fed to sustain that life; through Confirmation we are strengthened; through Reconciliation and Annointing of the Sick we are healed; through Matrimony and Holy Orders we enter into relationshp and cooperate in giving life. Each time a sacrament is given it is a huge blow against the enemy.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Do you understand the effects of each of the seven sacraments and why they are necessary?

I understand why Catholicism thinks that each sacrament is necessary.

By the way, how do you think your understanding of divinity differs from the Catholic view?

I understand that I don’t understand Divinity. That lack of understanding leads me to question any religion that says they do understand. :lol: I got to the point in my life that the only part of the Creed I could say truthfully was “I believe in God”. I couldn’t say the rest.

FWIW, I’ve never experienced Divinity (God) as personal (to this point in life, anyway)… Even in my days as a Charismatic Catholic, I never experienced God as personal.

God bless.

Any may you always seek Truth.

 

[cheese_sdc]

He made an interesting observation. I have always thought of the sacraments, like preaching the word, to be likened to an army invading hostile territory. Similar to when Jesus would cast out demons and heal the sick and then pronounce that the strong man has been bound. The army of the kingdom of God invades the fallen world to slowly, yard by yard, take back creation from its bondage to the Satanic realm. Every time sins are forgiven in Holy Baptism; everytime Christ’s body and blood enter the mouth of a sinner, every time Holy Absolution is pronounced, another citadel of Satan falls until the return of our King. Divine intersecting reality… you betcha.

My cosmology differs considerably from yours.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I understand that I don’t understand Divinity. That lack of understanding leads me to question any religion that says they do understand. :lol: I got to the point in my life that the only part of the Creed I could say truthfully was “I believe in God”. I couldn’t say the rest.

We will never, of course, understand divinity. What we do understand is what He has revealed to us (Deut. 29:29). So I can understand why you feel that you don’t comprehend divinity. However, you do realize that saying your belief in not being able to understand the divine, and therefore, you question those who do, defeats your attempt to say we can’t know God? “I know enough about God to know that He is unknowable.”

 

[SteveVH]

I understand why Catholicism thinks that each sacrament is necessary.

I understand that I don’t understand Divinity. That lack of understanding leads me to question any religion that says they do understand. :lol: I got to the point in my life that the only part of the Creed I could say truthfully was “I believe in God”. I couldn’t say the rest.

FWIW, I’ve never experienced Divinity (God) as personal (to this point in life, anyway)… Even in my days as a Charismatic Catholic, I never experienced God as personal.

Any may you always seek Truth.