Non-Catholics: What would you do?

  • Thread starter Thread starter traillius
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
What do mean by this as want to answer fairly. Its not what Rome teach per se but that to be considered a full member one has to accept everything that is taught. You can think, yes but its that idea well if it don’t suit you, then there is the door, rather than work with believers to help them feel included.
I get that–I’m sorry for the tone of my earlier post. I also struggle with some of these same issues, though I am probably more conservative than you are and more willing to accept the authority of the Church. Do bear in mind that the folks on this forum don’t represent the Catholic Church–many of them are, by their own frequent admission, much more conservative than their own clergy and in many cases shop around for what they consider “orthodox” parishes.

Also, I was responding in terms of the original OP, which was about how we would respond to our church uniting with Rome. You then expressed a dislike of a liturgy that is too much like that of Rome because you are “not RC” and don’t want to play that you are. That seems to indicate a dislike even of any move toward corporate reunion. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

I get a bit frustrated by what I often see as the triviality of my fellow Anglicans’ reasons for rejecting union with Rome (and/or with the Orthodox). I responded out of that general frustration, and I apologize.

Edwin
 
I get a bit frustrated by what I often see as the triviality of my fellow Anglicans’ reasons for rejecting union with Rome (and/or with the Orthodox).
I would like to know more of these “trivialities.” Maybe my reasons for rejecting Rome are in the same category. I have to say, though, that I can’t think of any reasons off the top of my head strong enough for me to leave my church should it decide to join with the Orthodox.

There is an interesting article by Robert Arakaki at this link:
orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2012/08/02/why-i-did-not-become-roman-catholic-a-sort-of-response-to-jason-stellman/

About halfway through it, there are six bulleted items that explain in part why he was drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy rather than Roman Catholicism. I don’t know anything about the 6th, but the first five are also reasons why I would not want to remain a member of a church that joined Rome. In brief:
  1. There is no evidence of the Bishop of Rome as the supreme head and infallible magisterium in the early Church.
  2. The Papacy’s autonomy from the ancient Pentarchy violates early Christian unity.
  3. the Papacy’s unilateral insertion of the Filioque into the Nicene Creed runs contrary to the conciliarity intrinsic to the seven Ecumenical Councils.
  4. The doctrines of purgatory and indulgences are medieval innovations that have no basis in patristic theology.
  5. The dogma of Transubstantiation is a doctrinal aberration that is at odds with the patristic consensus.
 
To all non catholic christians: What would you do if your church decided to unite with the RCC? I know its not likely in many groups, but still.
My Lutheran siblings have answered well. Praise God for the end of the division.
While i understand Ben’s desire to continue to enjo the Lutheran mass, I would make it a point to share the eucharist with my Catholic siblings, too.

Jon
 
I would like to know more of these “trivialities.” Maybe my reasons for rejecting Rome are in the same category. I have to say, though, that I can’t think of any reasons off the top of my head strong enough for me to leave my church should it decide to join with the Orthodox.

There is an interesting article by Robert Arakaki at this link:
orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2012/08/02/why-i-did-not-become-roman-catholic-a-sort-of-response-to-jason-stellman/

About halfway through it, there are six bulleted items that explain in part why he was drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy rather than Roman Catholicism. I don’t know anything about the 6th, but the first five are also reasons why I would not want to remain a member of a church that joined Rome. In brief:
  1. There is no evidence of the Bishop of Rome as the supreme head and infallible magisterium in the early Church.
  2. The Papacy’s autonomy from the ancient Pentarchy violates early Christian unity.
  3. the Papacy’s unilateral insertion of the Filioque into the Nicene Creed runs contrary to the conciliarity intrinsic to the seven Ecumenical Councils.
  4. The doctrines of purgatory and indulgences are medieval innovations that have no basis in patristic theology.
  5. The dogma of Transubstantiation is a doctrinal aberration that is at odds with the patristic consensus.
this is not what the OP was asking. He was asking if there was ever a unification of Christians, what would you do? And also, if you’d do a little reading into the Early Church Fathers, you’d find your attacks to be wrong.]
 
this is not what the OP was asking. He was asking if there was ever a unification of Christians, what would you do? And also, if you’d do a little reading into the Early Church Fathers, you’d find your attacks to be wrong.]
The OP asked, “To all non catholic christians: What would you do if your church decided to unite with the RCC?” That’s different than asking what I would do if there was ever a unification of Christians.

With respect to the OP’s question, my answer remains the same, that I would withdraw my membership in my current church and find another church to attend.

I’m sorry you perceive my listing of Mr. Arakaki’s reasons for choosing Eastern Orthodoxy over Roman Catholicism as an attack. It was not intended that way, but simply as giving some explanation as to why I would not want to be in a church that joined with the RCC. I have done some reading of the early church fathers, as well as some history of the early centuries of the church, and my understanding mirrors that of Mr. Arakaki. If you have some specific reading suggestions, I’d be happy to look into it further.
 
Unless the union became possible because the RCC changed the doctrines, dogmas and discipline that prevent me from joining it…

I would have to go with those who said they would withdraw and find another church.
 
Hopefully ours wouldn’t and with the priest we got at the moment he definately wouldn’t so he would move on somewhere else rather than go to RCC as we had that little discussion per se back at advent when you guys changed the Missal. We been following the missal much to some of our discomfort for some of us. So when he came and asked us what we want, those of us who didn’t want the new missal said change. He did point out that if the parish wanted the new missal then they would have to accept the other strands to being Catholic too and he wouldn’t want that to happen as such though I think he may have been saying it to warn what could happen. Nothing against RCC as such just that I am not RCC and don’t want to pretend or play at being RCC when I am not. All or nothing for me and didn’t like the Missal etc anyway. It shook a few people that they thought everyone wanted the New Missal etc and being Catholic. Thankfully the Priest brought us back on track to the Anglican Service and yeh the new hymn book is a bit of a mistake because the paper is too thin and Kevin Meyhew group has altered a lot of the tunes etc At least, no offence here guys but at least we are no longer pretending or playing at being RCC when we are not! some picked and choose their own rules as such and strictly if really was in the RCC can’t even do that. When playing at it they can pretend as much as they want and ditch what they don’t like. With a heartfell thanks to this Priest for guiding us gently back on the Anglican Path. Like I say no offence to RCC but we are not as thus.

I’d be really torn because I like the Church building I go to which is in my home parish etc. But I probably stop going alltogether or pay lip service perhaps in that inward I know I am not Catholic but just go through the motions to worship God in a place always have done and if by chance it was our current priest he would know. But am pretty certain he wouldn’t go to RCC and find work elsewhere, he’d become a chaplin again somewhere… I’d be really stuck to what I do but in my heart I never be Catholic - again no offence
To many American Anglicans, Episcopalians it may look like you are already “playing Catholic” with your parishes former use of the missal.

Here in the states their is only one book legal to use, the Book of Common Prayer, and only one hymnal as well.

Their are options in the BCP to sure, but it is the only liturgy used.

As I understand the CofE has a lot of options liturgically and no official hymnal at all.
 
Originally Posted by traillius
To all non catholic christians: What would you do if your church decided to unite with the RCC? I know its not likely in many groups, but still.
Mark my calendar as the day hell froze over. 😃
 
To many American Anglicans, Episcopalians it may look like you are already “playing Catholic” with your parishes former use of the missal.

Here in the states their is only one book legal to use, the Book of Common Prayer, and only one hymnal as well.

Their are options in the BCP to sure, but it is the only liturgy used.

As I understand the CofE has a lot of options liturgically and no official hymnal at all.
I am unaware of any general requirement for Anglicans in US to use only one book, by which I assume you mean the 79 book.

I’ve been to Masses at Anglican churches, in which the 1549, 1559, 1662, US 1928, Anglican Missal, and the 79 book were used. Indeed, the 28 Book is standard in my parish (not TEC).

Tell me more about this legal requirement.

GKC
 
The Biblical pattern is that God makes covenants with individuals–Abraham, Moses, David–and that others are then expected to be in union with these individuals and/or their successors. I think that’s the best way to read Matt. 16.

Edwin
Not to totally derail the topic, but my initial reaction to this is that we have a new covenant in Christ. A new convenient in the body and blood of our lord.

While I would be ecstatic for a union with Rome, my heart aches for a different and more perfect union.

If you do find Rome, I pray that your family goes with you hand in hand.
 
Not terribly likely to happen, but I would listen to the reasons for joining with the RCC, pray about it, and consider my position. Not dissimilar to what I am doing now, tbh. I have learnt quite a bit about Catholicism lately, and know the CC considers itself to be the one, true Church of Christ. I think that claim is worthy of consideration. I am not, however, planning to become Catholic. There are two reasons for that. Firstly, I believe God has called me to the church I am in, and that that is where I am supposed to be. Secondly, there are Catholic doctrines I can’t at present accept because I don’t think they are right.
“I” “I” “I” That’s a lot of i’s in there my friend. Why not reflect on the possibility that 2000 plus years of Divinely protected and guided Sacred Tradition (coupled with Sacred Scriptures) knows a heck of a lot more than you or me? The reason the Catholic Church has stood the test of time is because it has always stood for Truth. It has always stood for Christ. In almost every age that meant standing against the opinions and ways of the worldly societies the Church was present in. Not trying to sound antagonistic but asking and hoping that you might deny yourself and with a humble heart take a closer look at Catholicism. Christ is right here within her. You don’t need to look any further 😉 God Bless.
 
Not trying to sound antagonistic but asking and hoping that you might deny yourself and with a humble heart take a closer look at Catholicism. ** Christ is right here within her.** You don’t need to look any further 😉 God Bless.
Christ is nowhere else?
 
“I” “I” “I” That’s a lot of i’s in there my friend.
Hi SaintPatrick–I know you’re replying to Godith, but I took his/her use of “I” simply to mean “Speaking for myself, and not presuming to speak for anyone else”…which is what this thread is asking of anyone who responds.
 
I am unaware of any general requirement for Anglicans in US to use only one book, by which I assume you mean the 79 book.

I’ve been to Masses at Anglican churches, in which the 1549, 1559, 1662, US 1928, Anglican Missal, and the 79 book were used. Indeed, the 28 Book is standard in my parish (not TEC).

Tell me more about this legal requirement.
My understanding is that there can be no “general requirement for Anglicans in US” if you are going to refer to every group considering itself as Anglican to actually be Anglican. Each province will have its own rules that apply to its own adherents.

For example, some Anglican provinces trace their origins to a split in the North American churches in the late 1970’s and include “The Affirmation of St. Louis” as one of their founding documents. It states:

“We affirm that the Anglican Church of Canada and the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, by their unlawful attempts to alter Faith, Order and Morality (especially in their General Synod of 1975 and General Convention of 1976), have departed from Christ’s One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.”

And:

“In the continuing Anglican Church, the Book of Common Prayer is (and remains) one work in two editions: The Canadian Book of 1962 and the American Book of 1928. Each is fully and equally authoritative. No other standard for worship exists.”

For Anglicans in this heritage, there is a requirement to use an authorized book, and an organization using the 1979 BCP would not be seen as Anglican in a true sense, but as a group that has departed from the Anglican faith.
 
I would like to know more of these “trivialities.” Maybe my reasons for rejecting Rome are in the same category. I have to say, though, that I can’t think of any reasons off the top of my head strong enough for me to leave my church should it decide to join with the Orthodox.
And to be fair, I think that’s probably true of a lot of Anglicans. But by the same token, I’d push Anglicans harder on the Orthodox question–that is to say, traditional Anglo-Catholics seem to me to have absolutely no reason not to seek union with the Orthodox, and indeed a moral imperative to do so.

Many of the reasons given by Arakaki are also reasons I have long hesitated to seek union with Rome, and have given serious thought to Orthodoxy. But in the end I don’t think they are strong enough. Probably this shouldn’t turn into another Catholic-Orthodox debate thread, but this is an important issue for me, so I’ll go ahead and let the moderators rap us on the knuckles if we get off topic:
  1. There is no evidence of the Bishop of Rome as the supreme head and infallible magisterium in the early Church.
Loaded language. I think the fundamental question is whether Petrine primacy (i.e., the primacy of one member of the apostolic “college”) is of divine institution (I think it clearly is), and whether this has been passed down through the bishops of Rome (I think historically it clearly has). In other words, I can’t accept the standard Orthodox position that Roman primacy is purely a matter of ecclesiastical tradition. There are Orthodox, like the late Olivier Clement, who hold views of Roman primacy with which I agree. And that’s why if I were Orthodox I don’t think I’d leave–I’d just be one of those evil ecumenical Orthodox about whom the traditionalist Orthodox are always complaining. But for me as a Western Christian to choose Orthodoxy over Catholicism, I’d need to be convinced that Roman primacy is in no sense of divine institution. And I am convinced of the opposite. In light of that, the problems I have with the way Roman primacy has developed are relatively minor. Infallibility is a difficult one, but ironically I’ve been helped by the Orthodox theologian George Florovsky’s article on the authority of Councils (which also refutes the standard Catholic objection that Orthodox don’t have a good way to tell which Councils are authoritative). Florovsky sees the Councils as “charismatic events” through which the Spirit works, rather than juridical bodies which are guaranteed to reach the right result because they are constituted in a particular way or follow a particular process. I think it’s possible to take this approach and apply it to Catholic ecclesiology. The same is true for the oft-repeated (and in my judgment entirely correct) Orthodox claim that dogma is essentially apophatic. Put those two things together, and Vatican I’s decree on papal infallibility becomes an apophatic statement that rules out juridical conciliarism (the medieval Western position the RC’s typically attribute to the Orthodox and then proceed to refute) and leaves room for the charismatic office of the Papacy to function under the guidance of the Spirit.
  1. The Papacy’s autonomy from the ancient Pentarchy violates early Christian unity.
I find that an odd way of putting it. The Pentarchy is clearly an ecclesiastical tradition of relatively late vintage. I am always baffled by the importance some Orthodox seem to put on it. Roman primacy has considerably stronger credentials, I think. On the other hand, there’s certainly a problem historically of Rome being seen as having authority on its own rather than in the context of the communion of bishops and of the Church as a whole. (That’s the most basic problem I have with Vatican I, though as I said above I think Vat I can be interpreted differently.) If that’s the objection then I agree that it’s a strong one–but clearly folks within the Roman Communion, including recent Popes, see it as a problem and are interested in rethinking the doctrine of the Papacy in a way more consistent with early Christian ecclesiology.
  1. the Papacy’s unilateral insertion of the Filioque into the Nicene Creed runs contrary to the conciliarity intrinsic to the seven Ecumenical Councils.
This has been a huge problem for me as well. (Of course, as Anglicans that’s an odd objection for us to make, since nearly all Anglicans say the Filioque.) I agree entirely that it shouldn’t have been done, and that ideally it should come out. At the same time, I’m not convinced that the Filioque is heretical when understood within the Latin tradition (granted, that wasn’t Arakaki’s argument), and I don’t think “conciliarity” is simply a matter of following certain procedures.
 
  1. The doctrines of purgatory and indulgences are medieval innovations that have no basis in patristic theology.
That’s only true if you take the “legal” language in which they are clothed to be the dogmas themselves. If you look at what the RCC actually affirms in these two cases, I think the charge is clearly false, and I can’t see that there’s a fundamental difference between the RCC and the Orthodox. I’m being too breezy here–these are issues I’ve struggled with, particularly indulgences. But in the end I just don’t think the differences are clear enough to warrant separation among Christians. The broader context for Arakaki (which you omit, because apparently it isn’t as significant for you) is his claim that Catholicism is basically medieval and that there’s a huge gap between the medieval Western Church and the early Church. I think that’s actually the more important question to resolve. And as with the other issues raised, I think that the Orthodox have a valid point and that Catholics need to be willing to rethink later developments in light of the patristic consensus and the ongoing witness of the Eastern tradition (in JPII’s language, “breathe with both lungs,” though that can imply a “separate but equal” approach that I think is hopelessly flawed). And yet I’m just not convinced of this claim that the medieval West had somehow broken with the patristic tradition.
  1. The dogma of Transubstantiation is a doctrinal aberration that is at odds with the patristic consensus.
This one seems really bizarre to me. Again, it has to be read in light of his view of the medieval West. I think in fact that the absurdity of this claim demonstrates the problem with the whole “bash the medieval West” approach. It’s pretty clear to me that Aquinas and the other medieval scholastics who thrashed out transubstantiation were substantially saying the same things Fathers like Cyril of Jerusalem and Ambrose had said–and bear in mind that Trent and IV Lateran don’t commit Catholics to ever detail of Aquinas’s philosophical explication. I simply can’t see a substantial difference here.

When seventeenth and eighteenth-century Anglicans encountered the Orthodox and learned what they actually believe, these Anglicans (themselves on the “high church” side of Anglicanism) concluded with disappointment that the Orthodox believed in transubstantiation. I think that for an Anglican to use the Orthodox dislike of scholastic terminology to defend Anglican vagueness on the question of the Real Presence (and/or the 39 Articles’ rejection of transubstantiation, which was fueled by a Protestant theology of the Eucharist that many modern Anglicans don’t hold) is illegitimate.

Edwin
 
#1, I really don’t see my Church uniting with Rome unless she abandoned her innovations and returned to the Orthodox Faith. If Rome did indeed come back to Orthodoxy, I’d be just fine with it. And heck, that’d mean I could receive communion back at my old ECC parish, so I’d be very happy about the restoration of communion.

But, if the Orthodox Church united with Rome and accepted all the Roman innovations, I’d withdraw and find other Orthodox Churches that didn’t go along with the union (and trust me, I heavily doubt all of Eastern Orthodoxy would unite with Rome without Rome first returning to Orthodoxy.)

If, however, on the 0% chance that all of Eastern Orthodoxy DID unite with Rome and accept the Papal innovations, Filioque and whatever else, I’d go seek out the Oriental Orthodox and join them.
 
To all non catholic christians: What would you do if your church decided to unite with the RCC? I know its not likely in many groups, but still.
The Church has always been united with the RCC. Jesus said where 2 or more pray in my name I am there.

Any Person who has been baptised in the Name of the Trinity is part of the Church. The RCC is part of that. So we are united but just don’t know it yet!😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top