Non-Catholics: When you hear Catholics equated to Satan, does it bother you?

[Ginger2]

I have been greatly offended by those who suggest Catholics are not Christians, but I have never heard anyone equate Catholics with satan.

…unless you count crazies.

Fred Phelps calls Catholics and Protestants evil, etc. But he cannot be counted as a sane and rational human being. The only people who pay any attention to his opinions are atheists and God-haters who try to make Phelps appear “mainstream Christian”.

What concerns me Is the hypocrisy within Christian forums concerning this issue.

This is a Catholic forum and I have been associated with following satan at least three times. Sometimes more directly than others.

It seems to me, as Christians, we have our hands full enough fighting the evil that is trying to rule this world - we should not be fighting each other.

Instead we should set aside the differences that are not really all that important and join together for what we all believe -

Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Is it not true also, that there is neither Catholic nor Protestant if we are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Shoshana]

I kinda believe that those who hate Catholicism most are ex-Catholics themselves. Just my take…

 

[Contarini]

I was listening again to a talk by John MacArthur (who I understand is fairly well-respected in Protestant circles).

Broad generalization. Most Protestants have never heard of him. In fact, perhaps the only living Protestant preacher/theologian/spiritual leader of whom most Protestants have heard is Billy Graham. (Maybe Rick Warren as well, these days.) Many Protestants who have heard of him dislike him for one reason or another. I respect his opposition to antinomianism and what I believe to be his sincerity, integrity, and commitment to the truth as he knows it. But I don’t find his version of Christianity by and large to be convincing, appealing, or particularly moving, and in some areas–such as his attitude to Catholicism–it’s downright repulsive.

In the 7:00 minute mark of his sermon in this file, he states the following:*In the long war on the truth, the most formidable, relentless, and deceptive enemy has been Roman Catholicism. It is an apostate, corrupt, heretical, false Christianity. It is a front for the kingdom of Satan.*Protestants, non-Catholics, does this sort of comment bother you? In what way??

It bothers me immensely, for the very simple reason that it is false. And while all falsehoods bother me, falsehoods that slander so vast a company of my fellow-Christians, and a tradition to which all Christians owe so much, are particularly abhorrent.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

The funny thing is that McArthur is often invited to Larry King and featured with Ted Haggard in a Jewish documentary on the Protocols of Sion in a part about Jewish evangelical relations.
So he is being picked on purpose. Do you think they have and agenda to use him to hurt evangelicals? Misrepresenting them by using their more bonehead faction.

No, I don’t think so. He is quite prominent, and he’s an articulate spokesperson for a certain kind of conservative Protestantism.

There are, unfortunately, many Protestants who are far more “boneheaded” than MacArthur.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

He claims in his talk that he has been on the same “team” as R.C. Sproul in ecumenical meetings. Sproul, I also understand from others on this forum is respectful and influential. No?

In certain circles. I always find it amusing that Catholics will talk about Protestant division and diversity one minute and then treat us as an undifferentiated mass the next.

Sproul is a thoughtful and intelligent spokesman for conservative Calvinism. He is therefore very respected in those circles, and in conservative Protestantism generally is regarded as a formidable figure worth taking seriously, whether or not you agree with him. There is a tendency these days for the more thoughtful young evangelicals (the ones not drawn toward Catholicism–though I was drawn in both directions for a while) to find this sort of conservative Calvinism appealing, because it has a lot more intellectual depth and integrity, and a lot more historical rootedness, than most forms of evangelical Protestantism. However, “mainline” has a specific meaning–it refers to the large, “oldline” Protestant denominations. They do not generally regard Sproul very highly, except for some of the more conservative members of the PCUSA (the mainline Presbyterian denomination), who even then would likely regard him as a bit of a stick-in-the-mud.

MacArthur does not have Sproul’s intellectual depth–he’s a lightweight version and relatively less committed to classical Calvinism. But yes, he is certainly well regarded in many conservative Protestant circles. Compared to the pablum being served in many evangelical churches, MacArthur’s stridency can actually seem refreshing.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Doesn’t James White also consider himself a Calvinist? If that is the case, I’m a little unnerved at today’s front-line Calvinist voices.

Calvinism can mean a lot of things. The mainline, historically Calvinist denominations (in the U.S. that would be UCC, PCUSA, RCA–these are the U.S. ones) are quite liberal, though they cover a broad spectrum. In relatively conservative mainline Reformed circles, the most influential theologian is probably Karl Barth. Admittedly Barth was fairly anti-Catholic as mainline theologians go (he said that the “analogy of being” was the doctrine of Antichrist and that this was the only real reason not to be Catholic), but certainly not like MacArthur.

Then you have the various forms of conservative Calvinism. And yes, MacArthur is well respected in many of these circles (actually some find him not “Reformed” enough–for instance, he doesn’t believe that Sunday should be kept strictly as the Sabbath), though people like J. I. Packer, R. C. Sproul, and the late Cornelius Van Til are generally more highly regarded. White is a somewhat more marginal figure, but particularly among Calvinistic Baptists, yes, he’s unfortunately quite influential.

Edwin

 

[KarenNC]

I have been greatly offended by those who suggest Catholics are not Christians, but I have never heard anyone equate Catholics with satan.

…unless you count crazies.

Fred Phelps calls Catholics and Protestants evil, etc. But he cannot be counted as a sane and rational human being. The only people who pay any attention to his opinions are atheists and God-haters who try to make Phelps appear “mainstream Christian”.

I think you underestimate the extent of this idea among certain groups of Protestants. While it may be not entirely mainstream, it is far from only “atheists and God-haters”. I will affirm from personal experience that a large portion of my extended family, who are the antithesis of “atheists and God-haters”, do in fact consider that the Catholic religion is actively evil and in total opposition to God. Some do allow that it is really only the Pope that is actively evil and individual Catholics are being duped. You also have to realize that, to many of these groups, saying that Catholicism is not a Christian religion is equivalent to saying it is Satanic, because anything that is not of Jesus is by definition of Satan.

The difference in experiences may be in part due to where you live or the particular variety of Protestants with whom you come in contact regularly. Try googling “Catholic AntiChrist” or “Catholic Satan” or “Catholic satanic”. Adittional popular ones (though not quite sure if you would equate them fully with “Satanic”) are to search on “Catholic whore of babylon” or “Pope Antichrist”.

I fully agree that a lot of the folks putting out this stuff are a bit less than what I would consider optimally rational, but they have large followings among certain groups of Christians. Jack Chick, for instance, is quite popular in our area (see article here on his opinion on the Catholic Church) catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp. They show up in public restrooms, stuck in library books, dropped in kids’ Halloween bags, etc. When I was growing up, I distinctly remember the local Christian bookstore stocking a rack of rabidly anti-Catholic comic books (along the lines of the Pope is the Antichrist and was responsible for Hitler).

So overall, no, I don’t think that it can be dismissed as the rantings of only a couple of folks and that they are largely ignored, at least not in my part of the US.

 

[MarcoPolo]

He claims in his talk that he has been on the same “team” as R.C. Sproul in ecumenical meetings. Sproul, I also understand from others on this forum is respectful and influential. No?

In certain circles. I always find it amusing that Catholics will talk about Protestant division and diversity one minute and then treat us as an undifferentiated mass the next.

Really not sure how you made the leap from original comment to this one, Edwin. I suggested no such “undifferentiated mass.”

 

[rr1213]

Calvinism can mean a lot of things. The mainline, historically Calvinist denominations (in the U.S. that would be UCC, PCUSA, RCA–these are the U.S. ones) are quite liberal, though they cover a broad spectrum.

I know that they came on the scene a bit later, but why not the PCA as a historically Calvinist denomination?

 

[Kansasdad]

I post on a couple of protestant forums as well, and I have found this attitude to be about 50/50 but quite common. Unfortunately many of the posters with this attitude are quite familiar with Jack Chic. I even had one poster tell me that his church has as an official doctrine that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. I could never get out of him what church this was.

I have also found a huge resistance to anything that hints at unity among Christian churches. This is immediately equated to end time prophecy.

God Bless,
K.D.

 

[mozart-250]

This is a Catholic forum and I have been associated with following satan at least three times. Sometimes more directly than others.

Come to think of it I have read satan being associated with the Protestants here several times.

Where is that Scripture about minding the log in your own eye before complaining against the speck in your brothers eye?

Pot…Kettle…Hypocrisy…

 

[Ginger2]

…Try googling “Catholic AntiChrist” or “Catholic Satan” or “Catholic satanic”. .

Well…if you go searching for wackos to criticize and mock your faith, you’re bound to find them.

There are a lot of people who believe the 9/11 conspiracy theories. they are a very small minority.

But if you google to find them, they will appear to be a majority.

and so are the non-catholics who believe Catholicism is satanic.

Furthermore, it is offensive to lump all non-Catholics together with cults as tho it makes no difference. I try to ignore such generalizations, but it ain’t easy.

So overall, no, I don’t think that it can be dismissed as the rantings of only a couple of folks and that they are largely ignored, at least not in my part of the US.

If you want to help people see Catholicism in a better light, then the Catholic church should take a stronger stance against suedo-catholic organizations like caritas of Burmingham. This organization This organization and others like it are damaging to the image of the Catholic church.

 

[KarenNC]

Well…if you go searching for wackos to criticize and mock your faith, you’re bound to find them.

There are a lot of people who believe the 9/11 conspiracy theories. they are a very small minority.

But if you google to find them, they will appear to be a majority.
and so are the non-catholics who believe Catholicism is satanic.

Furthermore, it is offensive to lump all non-Catholics together with cults as tho it makes no difference. I try to ignore such generalizations, but it ain’t easy.

First point—I am not, nor have I ever been, Catholic. I’m not even Christian. I simply dislike inaccuracy. I have no vested interest in coming up with a conspiracy theory about folks persecuting the Catholic Church. The folks that are saying this actually think about a thousand times better about the Catholic Church than they do about me (a lot of Catholics don’t have much use for me either—had anyone call for an online exorcism for you yet on this forum? It’s an interesting experience ).

Second point–these are not “cults”. The people to whom I refer who have espoused these opinions on more than one occasion are several varieties of Baptists, Methodist, Assembly of God, Church of God, various independent non-denominational churches, the charismatic branches of other mainline denominations, etc. There might be some justification in terming some of the non-denominational churches as cults of personality around a charismatic preacher, but these churches are considered Christian by the majority of folks who also term themselves Christian.
Are they representative of every Protestant or even the majority of them, particularly those in the more liberal end? No, and I have never claimed they are a majority. That doesn’t mean they do not exist, that such opinion is limited to one or two folks on the lunatic fringe as you stated or that those who tell you from personal experience that they do exist in larger numbers than you believe are therefore lying.

 

[Contarini]

Really not sure how you made the leap from original comment to this one, Edwin. I suggested no such “undifferentiated mass.”

Yes, you did, by failing to make any differentiation. MacArthur is influential and respected only in certain circles. You made a statement with no qualification.

However, I concede that I overreacted. I accept that you did not mean to imply that Protestants as a whole could be expected to respect MacArthur and/or be influenced by him. I am sorry for reading too much into your general comment.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I know that they came on the scene a bit later, but why not the PCA as a historically Calvinist denomination?

Sorry–the comma was confusing. I was speaking of denominations that were both “mainline” and historically Calvinist.

I recognize that “mainline” is arguably a misleading term these days, and one can’t assume that people are always using it in its traditional sense. The “mainline” denominations arguably no longer represent the “main line” of Protestantism (whatever that might be), and they certainly do not have the monopoly on public and academic Protestant discourse that they once had. However, the term is a handy one and there are good reasons for keeping it around, I think, unless you want to use “oldline” instead.

Let me clarify: “mainline” traditionally refers to certain specific denominations, which historically were (and except in the case of Baptists and perhaps Restorationists still are) the largest representatives of their traditions, and generally (again, Baptists are arguably an exception) have the most obvious and direct organizational continuity with the original forms of those traditions. In other words, PCUSA is organizationally the direct descendant of the former Northern and Southern Presbyterian Churches–PCA and the other conservative groups are splitoffs.

The mainline denominations are also generally the most liberal representatives of their respective traditions. One could argue, based on the above definition, that the Southern Baptists are a mainline denomination, in which case the Baptists would cease to be an exception in the previous paragraph and would become an exception in this one. (I.e., the Southern Baptists are the largest Baptist denomination, but they are more conservative than the American Baptist Churches USA.)

Edwin

 

[Ginger2]

First point-…I simply dislike inaccuracy).

Me too. And I apologize for my misunderstanding.

I see at least two (maybe 3) different issues here. First, those who really hate Christians - whether Catholic or not - are a very small minority with a huge voice making them appear to be many.

These are the ones who point to cults to discredit Christianity

The second group is where I believe you and I disagree. These are people who are temporarily misguided and/or have a personal opinion BUT does not cause them to attack the church in the sense that this thread seems to be addressing.

Here’s an example:

Some people within this forum make false assumptions about what I and other Protestants believe because I/we don’t agree with all catholic teaching.

When I explain their conclusion is not what I meant, they say “yes that is what you mean.” This type of person may think my differences with the RC mean I equate them with satan. I actually had someone ask me that after I responded to a Catholic who said I am following satan.

Second point–these are not “cults”. The people to whom I refer who have espoused these opinions on more than one occasion are several varieties of Baptists, Methodist, Assembly of God, Church of God, various independent non-denominational churches, the charismatic branches of other mainline denominations, etc…

You left out Catholics!

…That doesn’t mean they do not exist, …

I don’t deny their are individuals in every denomination (and occasionally whole denominations) that look at other churches and think they are being deceived by satan.

What I am saying is that the majority of TRUE Christians do not judge each other that way - however, most do point out pseudo-Christian cults.

That being said, I am open to the possibility that where you live is much different than where I am living. Maybe Christians in your area are very self-righteous elitists. In my experience, that is not the case.

 

[Hilde89]

I was listening again to a talk by John MacArthur (who I understand is fairly well-respected in Protestant circles). In the 7:00 minute mark of his sermon in this file, he states the following:*In the long war on the truth, the most formidable, relentless, and deceptive enemy has been Roman Catholicism. It is an apostate, corrupt, heretical, false Christianity. It is a front for the kingdom of Satan.*Protestants, non-Catholics, does this sort of comment bother you? In what way??

It does bother me.

You’re Christian too, just another denomination.
They bother me because they’re dumb and undiplomatic.

 

[lak611]

I don’t deny their are individuals in every denomination (and occasionally whole denominations) that look at other churches and think they are being deceived by satan.

What I am saying is that the majority of TRUE Christians do not judge each other that way - however, most do point out pseudo-Christian cults.

I have not experienced that problem where I live. I have never been told by a Protestant that I followed Satan, nor have I heard any Catholics where I live say that about Protestants. I work on a meal for the poor that has volunteers who are Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran and Presbyterian. It is held at a Methodist church, and the pastor helps out. We all get along great and talk about what is going on at our churches while we are cleaning up afterwards. We also get together for prayer services at each other’s churches sometimes. It is a very friendly group and many members have been working together for 15 years. I have been part of this for 6 years now. My real-life experiences with Protestants have never been negative.

 

[KarenNC]

The second group is where I believe you and I disagree. These are people who are temporarily misguided and/or have a personal opinion BUT does not cause them to attack the church in the sense that this thread seems to be addressing.

Here’s an example:

Some people within this forum make false assumptions about what I and other Protestants believe because I/we don’t agree with all catholic teaching.

When I explain their conclusion is not what I meant, they say “yes that is what you mean.” This type of person may think my differences with the RC mean I equate them with satan. I actually had someone ask me that after I responded to a Catholic who said I am following satan.

You are not unique in this experience, believe me…I get it all the time. Lots of folks seem to believe they know what I believe much better than I ever could and to delight in instructing me about what I “really” believe (and it is from Catholics, Protestants, atheists, etc).

I am rather basing my coments on specific statements that I have heard folks make on more than one occasion that show that yes, they very much do consider that the Catholic Church is not a true Christian Church, and that anything at all that is not truly Christian is of the devil. This doesn’t mean that they are necessarily constantly vocal about it or hitting Catholics over the head on the street because of it, but they do indeed hold the belief that if you are a member of the Catholic church, it’s really a shame, but you are definitely going to Hell and that the Pope is, at best, an agent of the devil sent to confuse real Christians.

Now is that belief based on an accurate understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches or about what Catholics actually do? Not usually. However, they are, like many groups (which also includes Catholics, Neopagans, any group, really), caught in a self-referential circle. They are reading only those authors and hearing only those speakers approved by their own group, thus solidifying such misinformation and believing that only their own group’s interpretation is the correct one and anyone who tries to tell them otherwise is either lying or attacking the group’s spiritual leaders or spiritual basis.

That’s one of the gifts that folks often overlook on the Non-Catholic Religions forum. By having a chance to actually talk to folks who really practice and believe in another religion one has a much better chance of getting a more accurate picture than if one simply continues to sit around and discuss what your co-religionists think that other religion teaches, does, believes, etc.

You left out Catholics!

No, I didn’t leave out Catholics. I did not include Catholics because they are not the folks that I have heard making statements such as the above about the Catholic Church, which is what I was talking about in that sentence. You need to realize that I did not know anyone who was Catholic until I hit high school, and certainly did not know any Catholics well enough to have religious discussions with them until I was in my late 20s. There simply weren’t many Catholics in our area until the last 20 years or so. They are still not a large group in the community in which I grew up, though there is a much larger population in the city nearby.

What I am saying is that the majority of TRUE Christians do not judge each other that way - however, most do point out pseudo-Christian cults.

Well, that pretty much depends on who gets to say who is a “TRUE” Christian—you or the individual. Certainly the ones who are making the statements I am reporting consider themselves to be so. They belong to denominations that are usually considered part of mainline Christianity.

That being said, I am open to the possibility that where you live is much different than where I am living. Maybe Christians in your area are very self-righteous elitists. In my experience, that is not the case.

I find that folks from other areas really don’t have a realistic picture of what smaller cities in the South are like in terms of this sort of thing, much less the more rural areas. They have no idea of the total saturation of usually quite conservative Protestant Christianity in every part of life here, the schools, the government, the stores, every activity. This is very, very, very slowly beginning to change as more folks move into the area, but for any real shift you have to be fairly close to a very major city.

 

[bogeydogg]

I was listening again to a talk by John MacArthur (who I understand is fairly well-respected in Protestant circles). In the 7:00 minute mark of his sermon in this file, he states the following:*In the long war on the truth, the most formidable, relentless, and deceptive enemy has been Roman Catholicism. It is an apostate, corrupt, heretical, false Christianity. It is a front for the kingdom of Satan.*Protestants, non-Catholics, does this sort of comment bother you? In what way??

I don’t think much of MacArthur. I am a protestant and a really conservative one at that, though I do not mean to imply any sort of political affiliation only that I love the Bible and tradition and the ECF’s, etc. People like MacArthur are misguided and in a lot of ways cruel. In some ways I think he’s right, i.e. when he calls out people like Brian MacLaren as being apostate, but his negative attitude to the RCC bugs me a lot and I don’t listen to him anymore because of things like that.

I think he presumes to know the mind of God.