Non Catholics who is right and who is wrong?

[notsmart]

Hello agian, sorry for the delay. I am on a one day hunt for information. I dont know if I can read all this without intteruption for a while. I am gathering infomation now, to read later so when I try to pray, I can ask God to help me understand all this.

Then, I will check everything I can, and ask more questions.

Grandma came this morning to take my daughter for two days, so I hit this as soon as I could. I also checked other sites over a few days, as a lurker but it was really weird. There were all sorts of names being shouted at others, and I just felt like it was damaging whatever interest I have in the whole christian idea. So far, this experience today has been excellent.

Thank you so much for helping me to understand Christian beliefs.

I will have to start my millionth thread on the topic of what are the things all christians do believe. I assume the Creed is for that purpose.

But, now I find out there are 3.

This whole thing is getting rather challenging to stay in the game.

Why isnt there more unity?

 

[TriuneUnity]

But, now I find out there are 3.

This whole thing is getting rather challenging to stay in the game.

Why isnt there more unity?

The vast majority of Christian churches accept the three ecumenical creeds as a correct statement of Trinitarian and Christological theology. The only major church that doesn’t accept all 3, I believe, are the Orthodox (who accept an earlier version of the Nicene Creed, and I believe they do not accept or use the Athanasian Creed).

 

[JTBT]

Hello agian, sorry for the delay. I am on a one day hunt for information. I dont know if I can read all this without intteruption for a while. I am gathering infomation now, to read later so when I try to pray, I can ask God to help me understand all this.

Then, I will check everything I can, and ask more questions.

Grandma came this morning to take my daughter for two days, so I hit this as soon as I could. I also checked other sites over a few days, as a lurker but it was really weird. There were all sorts of names being shouted at others, and I just felt like it was damaging whatever interest I have in the whole christian idea. So far, this experience today has been excellent.

Thank you so much for helping me to understand Christian beliefs.

I will have to start my millionth thread on the topic of what are the things all christians do believe. I assume the Creed is for that purpose.

But, now I find out there are 3.

This whole thing is getting rather challenging to stay in the game.

Why isnt there more unity?

one thing you have to keep in mind is people are not perfect, even though the God we serve is.
The Creeds are there to give you a picture of historic Christians Believes, but they are very heavy with theology so my advise to you is to read the 4 gospel books in the Bible Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,
they are witnesses to Jesus’ Birth, Life, Death and Resurrection. after you do that I recommend talking with a Christian Preacher, Priest, or a Christian friend to help you make sense of all of this.

and another thing to keep in mind when you see Protestants like myself and Catholics like you see on this board differ about things like authority, we are having, what I atleast consider, an in house debate on the way the house should be run, have you ever seen a family where the siblings didn’t fight every now and then? my guess is no, that is what you are seeing, but we are united in our faith and hope in Christ, so again my suggestion to you is to read the gospels, and visit a church in your area, to learn more.

May God Bless and lead you on your journey,
JTBT

 

[Roy5]

WHO IS RIGHT?

Hm! Who is right? Our egos easily lead us to insist that our particular church is right, although most Protestants seem to move easily from one denomination to another, depending upon the pastor, location, facilities, Sunday School, music, friends, or whatever. I know people who have changed denominations several times when they have moved from one community to one far away. Mainline Protestants seem to be very relaxed about theology. You believe this, I believe that. Fine. Let's have a friendly discussion.

 Most Catholics are also open-minded. It seems that Catholic Answers attracts a higher percentage of theological purebreds than you find in the church as a whole. I believe it was the Pew pollsters which recently reported that only 16% of US Catholics believed that their church is the one, true church. Only 12% of mainline Protestants believed that. As I recall, around 45% of evangelical Protestants thought their way was the only way. I can't believe they meant denomination. Instead, I;m sure they must have meant 'saved by grace through faith' regardless of denomination.

 By the way, I don't know how they distinguish between evangelical and mainline Protestants. Do they label all Southern Baptists as evangelical and all Presbyterians as mainline? If so, they're way off the mark. All the major denominations include both, often in the same congregation and getting along fine together. Millions of Protestants all but ignore theological differences. Technically all Christians and certainly all Protestants are evangelical if they are true followers of Christ. "Go ye into all the world...."

 

[notsmart]

Okay, I can understand the idea of looking at all christians as a family that does not always agree on things, but dearly cares for even the member of it that is well, not the one you really can even agree with about the weather. This, must be a human condition that even goes into religion.

The only problems that arise for me in this thought, is that how could the Man God Jesus, be a good teacher if he did not make things clear enough for us to all see what he wanted us to see.

Unless, he did not care about the issues that christians disagree on, and only cared they properly understood him, which is a challenge to us today not knowing Greek (the kind of Greek not spoken today) and Aramaic, and even anything else!

I dont know the Jewish faith at all except for reading the OT, and that is another thing, if I dont understand their faith/traditons customs, I may be misinterpreting the bible also.

The bible is rather hard to navigate for so many reasons.

Maybe if language was not such a barrier (as time can change usage) it would be much easier for me. Thankfully, in the Gospels it seems easier.

I dont know if I am ready to ask my christian friends to help. They would simply tell me what they believe, instead of just giving me answers to my questions with an explaination.

I dont know enough yet to ask the right questions to any religious person who is in charge of any christian church.

Right now, I am thinking about the very basics, like baptism, and some other things that one must, and should be informed about.
Because it seems that this is the one thing, that determines if you can even call yourself a follower of Jesus.

I dont know for sure, but it sounds like it.

 

[sola_scriptura]

I think what many Protestants would say to this is that they believe in the teachings of Jesus but not all the teachings of Rome. Rome would say that Protestants in rejecting their teachings are in fact rejecting the teachings of Jesus. So again we’re right back divisiveness. Not sure what the solution is really.

PEACE

The solution will come when God decrees it! Many of the posts here wind up asking why did God allow such disunity not only within Christianity but within the world generally speaking. We must understand, God not only permitted it He decreed it. Moreover, we cannot know why God does what He does. We can only know it will always work out for His good, which is our good.

It amazes me when I hear people postulate that some things occur that God didn’t want to happen. God made everything for His own ends, even the wicked. God causes calamity just as He causes peace. God brought people out of Egypt and destroyed cities. He drove people into slavery only to free them. When we will we get the message? He keeps trying to tell us He is in control, but we don’t listen. However, even hardened hearts and deafened ears were hardened and deafened by God, so He not only knows that some people won’t listen, He decreed it!

 

[notsmart]

The solution will come when God decrees it! Many of the posts here wind up asking why did God allow such disunity not only within Christianity but within the world generally speaking. We must understand, God not only permitted it He decreed it. Moreover, we cannot know why God does what He does. We can only know it will always work out for His good, which is our good.

Okay, this is a concept I can rationalize. However, how do you find this to be true, is this from simply getting grace to understand this? Or is it found in your church’s teachings?

I am worried about the part where you say God decreed it, when I thought Jesus said the other way around.

I am talking about disunity, sorry if I am not wording this right. I am just trying to look at this from every way possible.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Okay, this is a concept I can rationalize. However, how do you find this to be true, is this from simply getting grace to understand this? Or is it found in your church’s teachings?

I am worried about the part where you say God decreed it, when I thought Jesus said the other way around.

I am talking about disunity, sorry if I am not wording this right. I am just trying to look at this from every way possible.

I was actually adding to my post as you responded. However, as I said nothing happens without the will of God concerned. Yes Jesus tells us the end game. In essence there will be unity, we know this because Jesus said so. However, not until the appointed time.

We cannot know why God does what He does, but we can speculate occasionally – or we can at least look at the result. For example, why disunity within Christianity?

For one thing nothing spurs growth like competition. At this point there is tremendous opportunities for growing Christianity like never before. Right now there are more Christians on earth as a percentage of overall world population (and of course in actual numbers) than ever before in history. Imagine our opportunities in China and India. Look at the growth in just the past two decades in Africa.

Also Christianity pre-reformation was quite dogmatic and oppressive. Even the early reformers were quite dogmatic. However, regardless of what anyone thinks, denominational disunity has served as a check on error (and will continue to do so). We reproof each other.

Again just speculation on my part, but it seems to make sense?

 

[notsmart]

I was actually adding to my post as you responded. However, as I said nothing happens without the will of God concerned. Yes Jesus tells us the end game. In essence there will be unity, we know this because Jesus said so. However, not until the appointed time.

We cannot know why God does what He does, but we can speculate occasionally – or we can at least look at the result. For example, why disunity within Christianity?

For one thing nothing spurs growth like competition. At this point there is tremendous opportunities for growing Christianity like never before. Right now there are more Christians on earth as a percentage of overall world population (and of course in actual numbers) than ever before in history. Imagine our opportunities in China and India. Look at the growth in just the past two decades in Africa.

Also Christianity pre-reformation was quite dogmatic and oppressive. Even the early reformers were quite dogmatic. However, regardless of what anyone thinks, denominational disunity has served as a check on error (and will continue to do so). We reproof each other.

Again just speculation on my part, but it seems to make sense?

I think this is a reasonable position to take. I am just wondering though, if we can clearly determine what we percieve to be oppresion the same way as one living then. I guess, I mean- could it not be realative to the age?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I think a better question would be: “If the Catholic Church is wrong, then which interpration of the 30000 different churches is right”?

Peace!

The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that holds to the original Creed.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

There are 3 major creeds, called the Ecumenical Creeds: The Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed.

Your Book of Concord is showing.

When I was Lutheran I used to emphasize that part.

Actually the Apostles and Athanasian are unknown in the East. Nothing wrong with them, the Western Rite Orthodox use them without filioque.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hello agian, sorry for the delay. I am on a one day hunt for information. I dont know if I can read all this without intteruption for a while. I am gathering infomation now, to read later so when I try to pray, I can ask God to help me understand all this.

Then, I will check everything I can, and ask more questions.

Grandma came this morning to take my daughter for two days, so I hit this as soon as I could. I also checked other sites over a few days, as a lurker but it was really weird. There were all sorts of names being shouted at others, and I just felt like it was damaging whatever interest I have in the whole christian idea. So far, this experience today has been excellent.

Thank you so much for helping me to understand Christian beliefs.

I will have to start my millionth thread on the topic of what are the things all christians do believe. I assume the Creed is for that purpose.

But, now I find out there are 3.

This whole thing is getting rather challenging to stay in the game.

Why isnt there more unity?

Acutally there is only one universal Creed. The other two mentioned are not universal, but they don’t contradict the one (except filoque, which is not even in the Apostles Creed).

 

[TriuneUnity]

Your Book of Concord is showing.

When I was Lutheran I used to emphasize that part.

Actually the Apostles and Athanasian are unknown in the East. Nothing wrong with them, the Western Rite Orthodox use them without filioque.

Haha…I was going to make an off color comment on Concord, but I’ll refrain.

Yeah…I suppose, really…in substance, any of the creeds contain the same basic theology and don’t need to be used together. The only time we ever publically recite the Athanasian is on Trinity Sunday. It’s too bloody long otherwise.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Okay, I can understand the idea of looking at all christians as a family that does not always agree on things, but dearly cares for even the member of it that is well, not the one you really can even agree with about the weather. This, must be a human condition that even goes into religion.

The only problems that arise for me in this thought, is that how could the Man God Jesus, be a good teacher if he did not make things clear enough for us to all see what he wanted us to see.

Unless, he did not care about the issues that christians disagree on, and only cared they properly understood him, which is a challenge to us today not knowing Greek (the kind of Greek not spoken today) and Aramaic, and even anything else!

I dont know the Jewish faith at all except for reading the OT, and that is another thing, if I dont understand their faith/traditons customs, I may be misinterpreting the bible also.

The bible is rather hard to navigate for so many reasons.

Maybe if language was not such a barrier (as time can change usage) it would be much easier for me. Thankfully, in the Gospels it seems easier.

I dont know if I am ready to ask my christian friends to help. They would simply tell me what they believe, instead of just giving me answers to my questions with an explaination.

I dont know enough yet to ask the right questions to any religious person who is in charge of any christian church.

Right now, I am thinking about the very basics, like baptism, and some other things that one must, and should be informed about.
Because it seems that this is the one thing, that determines if you can even call yourself a follower of Jesus.

I dont know for sure, but it sounds like it.

Dear notsmart

the NT shows what the Church is to be. she was given authority by Christ. she was commanded to go and teach the Gospel to all nations from one end to another. Jesus spoke not the world but to 12 men only. some protestant take this passage as if Jesus is speak to all of them, so they assume this authority which was given only to these 12 men.

Jesus said that He would send the HS and He would only say what He heard from the Father in Heaven.

St Paul said that the Church is the Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth. why? becausse is the HS the Spirit of Truth who guides her.

the Church is One. not many. dissagreements will occur between brothers but Jesus said take your disagreements to the Church which has the authority to settle all disputes. in no where is said if your brother sees another sinning leave the Church and go and find other churches and teach your own theology.

Jesus cannot say one thing and do another, this is invention of man.

you said something very important to understand the NT, therefore, the Church, you must understand the OT.

when Jesus appeared to ST Paul, He said Paul why do you persecute me? St Paul was persecuting the Church. So, in way our Lord is going to create a sect of christianity to persecute His Church. like so many protestant would like to believe.

you really need to go back in time to get some understand of the CC.

God bless.

 

[notsmart]

Wisdomseeker,

I am having a hard time understanding this portion of your post:

when Jesus appeared to ST Paul, He said Paul why do you persecute me? St Paul was persecuting the Church. So, in way our Lord is going to create a sect of christianity to persecute His Church. like so many protestant would like to believe.

?

I dont understand this very well.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdomseeker,

I am having a hard time understanding this portion of your post:

when Jesus appeared to ST Paul, He said Paul why do you persecute me? St Paul was persecuting the Church. So, in way our Lord is going to create a sect of christianity to persecute His Church. like so many protestant would like to believe.

?

I dont understand this very well.

well, i did not go into all the details. you need to have some understanding of the protestant beliefs. what they teach.

let’s see. do you know anything about chick tracks? do you know about what protestants say about the CC that removed many Catholics from the Church?
do you know anything about some protestants saying things like the CC is the hore of babylon, the pope is the antichrist, Catholics worship statues?

waiting your reply.

 

[notsmart]

wisdomseeker:
well, i did not go into all the details. you need to have some understanding of the protestant beliefs. what they teach.

let’s see. do you know anything about chick tracks? do you know about what protestants say about the CC that removed many Catholics from the Church?
do you know anything about some protestants saying things like the CC is the hore of babylon, the pope is the antichrist, Catholics worship statues?

waiting your reply.

What are chick tracks?
I dont know what protestants say about the Catholic church other than they are not in it. However, it appears Anglicans say they are, and Lutherans say they are in the catholic faith, (which I dont understand at all, but I am sure its all in the way the word is interpreted, and likely not the same in all these cases)

I have heard of people calling the pope the antichrist, but not by any christian I know. The christians I know and have known, well- I dont talk too much to them about their faiths. Once and a while I will say something to them about the bible if I am truly bored and there is nothing else or no one else in the room to talk to.

 

[wisdomseeker]

What are chick tracks?
I dont know what protestants say about the Catholic church other than they are not in it. However, it appears Anglicans say they are, and Lutherans say they are in the catholic faith, (which I dont understand at all, but I am sure its all in the way the word is interpreted, and likely not the same in all these cases)

I have heard of people calling the pope the antichrist, but not by any christian I know. The christians I know and have known, well- I dont talk too much to them about their faiths. Once and a while I will say something to them about the bible if I am truly bored and there is nothing else or no one else in the room to talk to.

well apparently some protestants churches are in talking with the CC. desiring to be in union with the pope and the bishops. but they are still talking. the main ecumenism that the CC is trying to achieve first is with the Orthodox churches of th east and anglicans churches…there is much to say about this…

well, i really did not watn make the main point of our discussing. i just dont want to point out their wrongs.

chick tracks are tactics used by protestants to take Catholics of the Church. it is mainly attacking the teachings of the CC.

you can go here to have a better understanding of the Church Jesus found. you dont have to believe it but it gives a good understand.

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrkc.html

 

[SenorSalsa]

In viewing a program right before the visit of Benedict to the US one of the high ranking Vatican officials was getting questioned about Mary. His response was “the church has been teaching this for a long time”. When asked his personal opinion he commented that he didn’t think we had enough evidence to support it either way. He pointed right to Luke’s Gospel and said that overall the Gospel’s just don’t give us enough information.

I just wanted to respond to this, that most beliefs of Catholics are not Dogma or Doctrine, so Catholics are free to accept them or not. For example, apparitions of Saints and Mary, miracles, etc.

My guess as to the topic he was asked about though, is having to do with Mary as Coredemptrix. And I think, theologically, if you read what it really means, few Catholics have a problem with it, but what a lot of people have a problem with is the title, as it seemingly smacks of deifying Mary. And that could cause problems for people who deal with lots of protestant questions.

I sat in on a Mariology Class when I was touring Franciscan University, taught by Dr. Miravalle(who is considered one of THE authorities on Mary), and it happened to be on Mary as Coredemptrix and Medeatrix, and the way he explained it made perfect sesne

 

[PerryJ]

I was actually adding to my post as you responded. However, as I said nothing happens without the will of God concerned. Yes Jesus tells us the end game. In essence there will be unity, we know this because Jesus said so. However, not until the appointed time.

We cannot know why God does what He does, but we can speculate occasionally – or we can at least look at the result. For example, why disunity within Christianity?

For one thing nothing spurs growth like competition. At this point there is tremendous opportunities for growing Christianity like never before. Right now there are more Christians on earth as a percentage of overall world population (and of course in actual numbers) than ever before in history. Imagine our opportunities in China and India. Look at the growth in just the past two decades in Africa.

Also Christianity pre-reformation was quite dogmatic and oppressive. Even the early reformers were quite dogmatic. However, regardless of what anyone thinks, denominational disunity has served as a check on error (and will continue to do so). We reproof each other.

Again just speculation on my part, but it seems to make sense?

This post is based upon the concept of Total Depravity and the lack of free will. That is not the only theology that exists, many Protestants and Catholics believe in the concept of free will. Many would state that man has free will and that free will combined with poor choices creates suffering in the world. Not necessarily suffering to the person that committed the sin; however, that is possible. Many would find it difficult to believe that Christ creates beings in order to send them to Hell. As Christ in the Bible states that people will go to Hell and with this theology entities are predestined to their fate, God would have to intentionally create beings destined for Hell. This makes people that believe that they are part of the elect feel good; however, I do not find it satisfactory. I do not believe that a merciful God creates being destined for Hell. Man has a choice to accept Christ’s graces or not.