Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[Jay53]

LDS sure have a strange view of prayer. We don’t make God or anyone else do anything. Free will is not infringed upon by prayer. It is a ludicrous idea to believe it is.

Maybe you can answer this - (I’d rather get an honest, charitable response than a snotty, condescending one) - Do LDS believe that our prayers somehow coerce God into doing what we desire - that just the mere acting of praying with a sincere heart will get us whatever we want, regardless if it is God’s will? (That’s the impression I’m getting from some of these posts.)

 

[dianaiad]

Again, this shows your ignorance of Purgatory and what it entails. Purgatory is NOT a “fun” place. Although the souls in Purgatory know that they will eventually get to Heaven, they still have to be cleansed of all of their attachment to sin.

Talk about beating my head against the wall…

Jay, you just said that God is unchanging, and knows what these people would want or not want. You have claimed that their judgment is set at death, and nothing anybody can do will change it–and that nothing you could ask God to do would alter His mind about that.

So I am asking you: since you believe that God is unchanging and will not alter the state of anybody in Purgatory, or that He will do what He will do no matter what…why do you ask Him to shorten Purgatory terms?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Maybe you can answer this - (I’d rather get an honest, charitable response than a snotty, condescending one) - Do LDS believe that our prayers somehow coerce God into doing what we desire - that just the mere acting of praying with a sincere heart will get us whatever we want, regardless if it is God’s will? (That’s the impression I’m getting from some of these posts.)

LDS believe God will give you whatever you want. If He doesn’t it is because you are not worthy enough. Didn’t have enough faith, Didn’t pray sincere enough. Committed a sin you haven’t sought forgiveness for…the list is endless…the short of it is: something is wrong with you and you need to fix it in order for God to give you what you want.

Like I said, God-as-vending-machine. Put in the right currency and you can get out of the machine what you want.

 

[dianaiad]

OK. Then I will leave you and the other Mormons to discuss it.

I can discuss it with Mormons any time. this is the CATHOLIC ANSWERS FORUM…specifically, the non-Catholic religions subforum, set up for Catholics to discuss non-Catholic religions with each other and with members of those other religions.

In other words, THIS is the place for you to learn about other faiths and discuss them. That includes the philosophies of those other faiths. It would not be logical of me to go to the ‘philosophy’ section to discuss Catholic philosophy with Catholics. I’m not Catholic…how in the world could I do that?

 

[Jay53]

Jay, you are completely MISSING THE POINT. I am not saying that praying for the souls of the dead is wrong, or that praying for God to give us peace, or to heal the sick, is wrong. I do that all the time…under the same assumption you have, that the vast majority of those for whom I pray would appreciate those prayers if they knew about them. However, I seem to be the only one in this conversation who can even imagine that someone might not want me praying for them…for whatever reason.

Perhaps that’s because I’ve been TOLD that several times, I dunno…but I do make a habit of asking if I can pray for people before I do so, if I can.

The point is, it is irrelevent whether praying for others (dead or alive, sick or just determined to screw up their lives) is a good thing or a bad thing. The point is, you are asking for someone (or Someone) else to alter them in a way that they haven’t actively given you permission to ask for. That is the definition of ‘coercion.’ They may be ecstatically joyful because you did it; that is also irrelevent. They may be forever grateful to you…and that is ALSO irrelevent. You didn’t ask first, and THAT is the part that is relevent to this specific discussion.

…which, by the way, unless you have completely forgotten it, the criticism of LDS proxy work because Y"ALL think that we are forcing something on others that they don’t want forced on them. The point is, LDS proxy work is NOT forced on those for whom it is done. In fact, it is the epitome of 'asking first…" because without their willing and eager acceptance, it is not valid. Doesn’t work. Means nothing…it is utterly and completely up to them.

Part of your problem is your complete inability to wrap your mind around the idea that anybody would, or COULD, want to refuse a prayer/Mass/whatever to God on their behalf. There seems to be a disconnect there that I can’t get you past. I realize that you have a great deal of faith in your own beliefs, and that’s a good thing. However, you cannot judge what WE do by YOUR standards, can you? We don’t believe that what we do affects those for whom we do it unless they want it to, and unlike you, we are quite aware that some simply won’t want it to. Their choice.

You keep telling me that I don’t ‘get’ it…but I do. I understand that your position is “But…I’m RIGHT about this, and nobody WOULD refuse a prayer said to God on our behalf!” It’s something you simply can’t imagine…

but we can. And because we can, that’s how we offer what we do; as a choice.

:banghead:

I give up. No, you DON’T GET IT. I honestly think you’re not even reading these posts seriously.

For the gazillionith time, I DON’T BELIEVE MORMON PROXY BAPTISMS COERCE ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING. I THINK THEY ARE USELESS AND HAVE NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER!!!

I ALSO DON’T THINK OUR PRAYERS FOR ANYONE HAVE ANY EFFECT UNLESS GOD SAYS THEY DO!!! WHAT GOD WANTS TRUMPS WHAT WE WANT ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!!!

That’s a statement of your faith, but there’s no support for it other than your wishful thinking, Jay. You know that, right?

What is wishful thinking? That our prayers are for the Glory of God?

 

[Jay53]

Talk about beating my head against the wall…

Jay, you just said that God is unchanging, and knows what these people would want or not want. You have claimed that their judgment is set at death, and nothing anybody can do will change it–and that nothing you could ask God to do would alter His mind about that.

So I am asking you: since you believe that God is unchanging and will not alter the state of anybody in Purgatory, or that He will do what He will do no matter what…why do you ask Him to shorten Purgatory terms?

Do you even know what Purgatory is? Have you read any descriptions of it? I’m thinking not because if you had, you wouldn’t be asking this question. It would be like me asking you “why don’t you want to go to hell?”

 

[Jay53]

LDS believe God will give you whatever you want. If He doesn’t it is because you are not worthy enough. Didn’t have enough faith, Didn’t pray sincere enough. Committed a sin you haven’t sought forgiveness for…the list is endless…the short of it is: something is wrong with you and you need to fix it in order for God to give you what you want.

Like I said, God-as-vending-machine. Put in the right currency and you can get out of the machine what you want.

Thank you, Rebecca. Hopefully understanding this will help me in my responses. (if I don’t just give up and put people on ‘ignore’. )

 

[Jay53]

I can discuss it with Mormons any time. this is the CATHOLIC ANSWERS FORUM…specifically, the non-Catholic religions subforum, set up for Catholics to discuss non-Catholic religions with each other and with members of those other religions.

In other words, THIS is the place for you to learn about other faiths and discuss them. That includes the philosophies of those other faiths. It would not be logical of me to go to the ‘philosophy’ section to discuss Catholic philosophy with Catholics. I’m not Catholic…how in the world could I do that?

He/she was asking me the question and I am Catholic. Since I don’t enjoy philosophical discussions of this nature, I suggested he post his question in the philosophy section. If you and he and others want to discuss this topic here, be my guest! I will simply skip those posts. I was actually trying to help him if he was serious about his question. I don’t know why you have to be so argumentative about everything.

 

[dianaiad]

No, God is right. You just don’t seem to understand that we are all subject to God’s Will. He is the one that receives the prayers and answers the prayers however He sees fit.

That is NOT what I believe and I think I have explained my beliefs enough times for you to understand it.

And I don’t think Mormon baptisms have any effect on anything either.

And I am aware of the implications of you being initiated in the KKK - which was partly why I used that analogy. How do you think your kids, grandkids, great grandkids would feel about seeing your name associated with the KKK? Even knowing you and what you believed, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn’t be at least* a little* upset that your name has been associated with such a group and recorded as such. I would think that they would rather that such a ceremony had not been performed and recorded.

Are you kidding?

My kids would get a HUGE bang out of it! I know that they would be giggling like crazy…and couldn’t wait to tell me when they saw me again so I could get a laugh, too.

If I know one son, he’d start looking around to see how many other wierd organizations he could get me posthumously inducted into.

Jay, I still have a pamphlet from my husband’s funeral. It’s in the ‘memory book,’ right next to the program. It’s printed on fuzzy paper in large red and black type, with line drawings (like these sorts of pamphlets usually are…) and it reads, in part: “The deceased is in hell and you will soon follow if you don’t leave the Devil Mormon Church!”

You may not know much about Mormon funerals, but I have to tell you that this pamphlet didn’t cause one iota of outrage…not even a frown. We all had a wonderful laugh about it. Y’see, it doesn’t MATTER to me what other people believe they can do to me, or for me, after I’m dead. It’s what I believe that counts…and in terms of proxy work, it’s also what we believe about it that counts. We do not believe that what we do affects those who have passed on unless they WANT it to affect them, and believe that a note on their genealogical records saying that we have done the posthumous work for them does NOT alter who they were in life in any way, nor associate them with us UNLESS THEY PERSONALLY WANT IT TO AFFECT THEM.

You have spent a lot of time telling me that what you believe is correct because, well…you’re right and I’m wrong. As far as your beliefs go, that’s absolutely the right way to go. However, that means you have to give me the same courtesy. What we do is what we do…and if it works at all it works the way we claim it does. No coercion…and you cannot accuse us of it, especially when you believe that what you do and pray for is just and right because you believe it is just and right.

 

[dianaiad]

LDS sure have a strange view of prayer. We don’t make God or anyone else do anything. Free will is not infringed upon by prayer. It is a ludicrous idea to believe it is.

You are equivocating, Rebecca. You know very well that I’m not talking about God when I talk of the abrogation of free will. Of course HE can do as He wills…and will answer our prayers as He will. However, you ARE asking Him to mess with OTHER PEOPLE’S free will when you ask Him to do something to/for them.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Purgatory is a state of being, but easier for us to use language of “place and time”. It is where our souls are healed of the bang ups collected during life. God’s consuming fire, as no unclean thing, can enter heaven. God’s will is that these souls will be in heaven.

We pray for them because we called by Christ to be compassionate, and perform works of mercy. We do not believe this practice of discipleship ends for a person who is in purgatory.

Excerpts from Pope Benedict XVI encyclical Spe Salvi…

“Christ descended into “Hell” and is therefore close to those cast into it, transforming their darkness into light. Suffering and torment is still terrible and well- nigh unbearable. Yet the star of hope has risen—the anchor of the heart reaches the very throne of God. Instead of evil being unleashed within man, the light shines victorious: suffering—without ceasing to be suffering—becomes, despite everything, a hymn of praise.”

“The true measure of humanity is essentially determined in relationship to suffering and to the sufferer. This holds true both for the individual and for society. A society unable to accept its suffering members and incapable of helping to share their suffering and to bear it inwardly through “com-passion” is a cruel and inhuman society. Yet society cannot accept its suffering members and support them in their trials unless individuals are capable of doing so themselves; moreover, the individual cannot accept another’s suffering unless he personally is able to find meaning in suffering, a path of purification and growth in maturity, a journey of hope. Indeed, to accept the “other” who suffers, means that I take up his suffering in such a way that it becomes mine also. Because it has now become a shared suffering, though, in which another person is present, this suffering is penetrated by the light of love. The Latin word* con-solatio,* “consolation”, expresses this beautifully. It suggests* being with* the other in his solitude, so that it ceases to be solitude.”

"To suffer with the other and for others; to suffer for the sake of truth and justice; to suffer out of love and in order to become a person who truly loves—these are fundamental elements of humanity, and to abandon them would destroy man himself. Yet once again the question arises: are we capable of this? Is the other important enough to warrant my becoming, on his account, a person who suffers? Does truth matter to me enough to make suffering worthwhile? Is the promise of love so great that it justifies the gift of myself? In the history of humanity, it was the Christian faith that had the particular merit of bringing forth within man a new and deeper capacity for these kinds of suffering that are decisive for his humanity. The Christian faith has shown us that truth, justice and love are not simply ideals, but enormously weighty realities. It has shown us that God —Truth and Love in person—desired to suffer for us and with us. "

“A further point must be mentioned here, because it is important for the practice of Christian hope. Early Jewish thought includes the idea that one can help the deceased in their intermediate state through prayer (see for example* 2 Macc* 12:38-45; first century BC). The equivalent practice was readily adopted by Christians and is common to the Eastern and Western Church. The East does not recognize the purifying and expiatory suffering of souls in the afterlife, but it does acknowledge various levels of beatitude and of suffering in the intermediate state. The souls of the departed can, however, receive “solace and refreshment” through the Eucharist, prayer and almsgiving. The belief that love can reach into the afterlife, that reciprocal giving and receiving is possible, in which our affection for one another continues beyond the limits of death—this has been a fundamental conviction of Christianity throughout the ages and it remains a source of comfort today. Who would not feel the need to convey to their departed loved ones a sign of kindness, a gesture of gratitude or even a request for pardon? Now a further question arises: if “Purgatory” is simply purification through fire in the encounter with the Lord, Judge and Saviour, how can a third person intervene, even if he or she is particularly close to the other? When we ask such a question, we should recall that no man is an island, entire of itself. Our lives are involved with one another, through innumerable interactions they are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine: in what I think, say, do and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others: for better and for worse. So my prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of Being, my gratitude to the other—my prayer for him—can play a small part in his purification. And for that there is no need to convert earthly time into God’s time: in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain. In this way we further clarify an important element of the Christian concept of hope. Our hope is always essentially also hope for others; only thus is it truly hope for me too. As Christians we should never limit ourselves to asking: how can I save myself? We should also ask: what can I do in order that others may be saved and that for them too the star of hope may rise? Then I will have done my utmost for my own personal salvation as well.”

 

[RebeccaJ]

You are equivocating, Rebecca. You know very well that I’m not talking about God when I talk of the abrogation of free will. Of course HE can do as He wills…and will answer our prayers as He will. However, you ARE asking Him to mess with OTHER PEOPLE’S free will when you ask Him to do something to/for them.

No, we are not.

 

[dianaiad]

Maybe you can answer this - (I’d rather get an honest, charitable response than a snotty, condescending one) - Do LDS believe that our prayers somehow coerce God into doing what we desire - that just the mere acting of praying with a sincere heart will get us whatever we want, regardless if it is God’s will? (That’s the impression I’m getting from some of these posts.)

I don’t know about 'charitible," but I’ll give you “honest.” You and Rebecca both are equivocating. You both know quite well, because I have said so several times now, that I’m not talking about abrogating GOD’S free will. For you to keep claiming that is disengenuous. You are asking God to abrogate someone ELSE’S free will. He, of course, is quite free to do as He wills…but you are the one asking Him to do something to/for someone else without getting permission from that someone else first.

One day you pass your mother’s lawn and notice that it’s a little long. So, you ask your neighbor, who is in charge of your mother’s gardening, to mow your mother’s lawn. That’s fine; you are not interfering with your neighbor’s free will when you ask; he can say ‘no.’ The trouble is, you didn’t ask your mother if she wanted her lawn mowed.

Now the odds are pretty good that she would be grateful—but I can think of circumstances where she might not be too happy to see your neighbor pushing a lawnmower over her grass and chopping off the heads of her crocuses or new Johnny Jump-ups, for instance.

Your reasoning is that the neighbor would know whether your mother would want her grass shortened or not…and would do what is best for your Mom in any event; you didn’t even need to ask him.

but you DID ask him, even though you know he already knows what your Mom needs (and might even know that she doesn’t want her crocuses beheaded yet). You still asked him…and did not ask her. Why?

Anyway, I can’t speak to your impressions, except that I have NO idea where you are getting the impression that I believe you are coercing GOD into anything. Nope…you are asking God to to coerce someone else.

 

[dianaiad]

No, we are not.

Yeah.

You are.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yeah.

You are.

Did you read my post #369? I would be interested in your thoughts on it (if you don’t mind).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Diana, most Catholics I know are open about who they are praying for.

Just so you know, there have been times I’ve prayed for LDS here, and I have posted things like, we can pray for them. It wasn’t just a thing to say. I meant it.

 

[Jay53]

Are you kidding?

My kids would get a HUGE bang out of it! I know that they would be giggling like crazy…and couldn’t wait to tell me when they saw me again so I could get a laugh, too.

If I know one son, he’d start looking around to see how many other wierd organizations he could get me posthumously inducted into.

Jay, I still have a pamphlet from my husband’s funeral. It’s in the ‘memory book,’ right next to the program. It’s printed on fuzzy paper in large red and black type, with line drawings (like these sorts of pamphlets usually are…) and it reads, in part: “The deceased is in hell and you will soon follow if you don’t leave the Devil Mormon Church!”

You may not know much about Mormon funerals, but I have to tell you that this pamphlet didn’t cause one iota of outrage…not even a frown. We all had a wonderful laugh about it. Y’see, it doesn’t MATTER to me what other people believe they can do to me, or for me, after I’m dead. It’s what I believe that counts…and in terms of proxy work, it’s also what we believe about it that counts. We do not believe that what we do affects those who have passed on unless they WANT it to affect them, and believe that a note on their genealogical records saying that we have done the posthumous work for them does NOT alter who they were in life in any way, nor associate them with us UNLESS THEY PERSONALLY WANT IT TO AFFECT THEM.

You have spent a lot of time telling me that what you believe is correct because, well…you’re right and I’m wrong. As far as your beliefs go, that’s absolutely the right way to go. However, that means you have to give me the same courtesy. What we do is what we do…and if it works at all it works the way we claim it does. No coercion…and you cannot accuse us of it, especially when you believe that what you do and pray for is just and right because you believe it is just and right.

OK, This is the last time I am going to say this. If you still can’t get this through your head I will just need to put you on ignore, because you are obviously not here to actually engage in discussion.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MORMON PROXY WORK COERCES ANYONE AT ALL. I DON’T BELIEVE IT HAS ANY EFFECT WHATSOEVER!!! I AM NOT ACCUSING MORMONS OF COERCING ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING - ALIVE OR DEAD!!!

 

[Jay53]

I don’t know about 'charitible," but I’ll give you “honest.” You and Rebecca both are equivocating. You both know quite well, because I have said so several times now, that I’m not talking about abrogating GOD’S free will. For you to keep claiming that is disengenuous. You are asking God to abrogate someone ELSE’S free will. He, of course, is quite free to do as He wills…but you are the one asking Him to do something to/for someone else without getting permission from that someone else first.

One day you pass your mother’s lawn and notice that it’s a little long. So, you ask your neighbor, who is in charge of your mother’s gardening, to mow your mother’s lawn. That’s fine; you are not interfering with your neighbor’s free will when you ask; he can say ‘no.’ The trouble is, you didn’t ask your mother if she wanted her lawn mowed.

Now the odds are pretty good that she would be grateful—but I can think of circumstances where she might not be too happy to see your neighbor pushing a lawnmower over her grass and chopping off the heads of her crocuses or new Johnny Jump-ups, for instance.

Your reasoning is that the neighbor would know whether your mother would want her grass shortened or not…and would do what is best for your Mom in any event; you didn’t even need to ask him.

but you DID ask him, even though you know he already knows what your Mom needs (and might even know that she doesn’t want her crocuses beheaded yet). You still asked him…and did not ask her. Why?

Anyway, I can’t speak to your impressions, except that I have NO idea where you are getting the impression that I believe you are coercing GOD into anything. Nope…you are asking God to to coerce someone else.

NO WE ARE NOT!!!

We are asking God to answer our prayers according to His Will. Perhaps that the disconnect here. Catholics understand that everything in life including answered prayers are always subject to God’s Will. ALWAYS!!! If we pray to God for someone to be healed and it is not His Will for that person to be healed, he will not be. God’s answer was “no”. That is not subject to our worthiness, sincerity, etc. His answer is just “no”. The same with your alcoholic analogy. (I think that was yours.) If we pray to God for his healing and freedom from alcohol dependency, and God knows that this person’s heart is so hard that he will not accept any help, then he won’t be helped. God does not coerce anyone to do anything based on our prayers.

Your analogy doesn’t work because the neighbor is not God and does not knowwhat Mom wants. Only God knows everything. I will just leave it at that because I’m tired of arguing the same points over and over.

 

[mfbukowski]

The traditional Christian view is that God is unchanging.

We “ask” God to show mercy. Ultimately, we don’t know if he does, but we “ask”.

However, the mormon view appears to be different when you consider the change of the mormon stance on polygamy, and blacks holding the priesthood. It is clear by changing these practices that mormons believe that God changes.

I am afraid that it is you that doesn’t “seem to follow these beliefs through to their logical ends”.

Mormon doctrine however has shown

“Eternal Progression” implies that God changes.

Any God who answers prayers must change.

Plato was wrong. Heraclitus was right. But I suppose that is beyond the scope of all this.

 

[Jay53]

LDS believe God will give you whatever you want. If He doesn’t it is because you are not worthy enough. Didn’t have enough faith, Didn’t pray sincere enough. Committed a sin you haven’t sought forgiveness for…the list is endless…the short of it is: something is wrong with you and you need to fix it in order for God to give you what you want.

Like I said, God-as-vending-machine. Put in the right currency and you can get out of the machine what you want.

After thinking about this, I think this holds the key as to why Diana thinks our prayers are a form of coercion and why she’s not understanding this topic. This is an extremely misguided and incorrect belief about prayer, but I’m not sure how to correct it. Is this something that Joseph Smith taught (i.e. is this found in LDS Scripture anywhere) and is it a widespread Mormon belief (i.e. if you ask any Mormon this question (why was/wasn’t their prayer answered) will they respond the same way)?