Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[StrawberryJam]

No real big deal here. Just a question, and I hope you don’t mind or get upset I am asking it. I do not care one way or the other what the answer is personally for me, but I do feel I should have a reply to my friend who is a non catholic christian on this.

Remember- I could care less what your reasons are for doing what you do, if they are right or wrong, biblical or not biblical. Here’s the scoop. My friend calls me and it comes down to her remembering my father’s passing last year today. She was kind enough to remember this, and she was present in a real life way during that time. Coming by to help, be a shoulder to cry on, and more. So much more. Never did she use that moment to push anything on me, or even use it as a reason to “evangelize” me, and when I look back, it was one of the most touching methods of evangelizing me to christianity if any reasons could be…
Anyhoo… Today she calls me to tell me she remembers Dad, and the cool things we all did as kids together growing up. I was amazed she remembered him in this way, and very touched by it. We caught up a bit, and while she knows I have been investigating christianity, she did not know all the details or extent I took, but did know I was seeking a catholic viewpoint on christianity. She never detracted me from this path.
Anyhoo… she asked rather abrubtly if anyone in my family was Mormon, or were friends with any Mormons. I thought back. Then, it occured to me that my great great grandfather had a friend that was Mormon. I remembered this because my father had pointed this out to me once. Anyway, she tells me I shouldn’t be surprised if he is baptised Mormon, even though he is dead, and never believed in his life.

How can I check if my family member was baptised by a well meaning friend that was Mormon, who did what he felt was the right thing to do for a person he cared about?

Is she right? Could this be possible?

I just want to know if she is right, or telling me distortions about Mormons. Apparently, my family had ties with one particular one years and years ago. Even though, they both risked a lot to be friends- apparently the culture then was not so open to differing views. They however, found a way to be friends in spite of that barrier.

What should I tell her? I have no way of knowing if she is right or wrong. She said “just google it”



I love her to pieces, and would never tell her that ticked me off right there. Just google it, is so not the right thing to say…

But, I don’t want to get upset about that minor detail since she is a lifelong friend. If you knew her, you would understand she did not mean that in a way that is bad, it’s just the only way she relies on information lately it seems.

 

[PlipPlop]

I’ve never been a Mormon, but yes, their Church does advocate the baptizing of dead people.

Why? In the Mormon concept of afterlife, there are several different endings. If you’re a good Mormon, you get to be a god (or goddess). They also believe that someone can become a Mormon after they’re dead (quite a nice view, in my opinion ) - but they have to be baptized to reap the full benefits. So, it’s a just-in-case move on the part of your ancestor’s friend.

As far as I know there’s no way to tell whether or not your relative was baptized. Perhaps you could try shooting an e-mail to the LDS folks. Good luck!

If I am wrong please correct me.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’ve never been a Mormon, but yes, their Church does advocate the baptizing of dead people.

Why? In the Mormon concept of afterlife, there are several different endings. If you’re a good Mormon, you get to be a god (or goddess). They also believe that someone can become a Mormon after they’re dead (quite a nice view, in my opinion ) - but they have to be baptized to reap the full benefits. So, it’s a just-in-case move on the part of your ancestor’s friend.

As far as I know there’s no way to tell whether or not your relative was baptized. Perhaps you could try shooting an e-mail to the LDS folks. Good luck!

If I am wrong please correct me.

Isn’t there an open log for people to view by simply searching their loved ones names to find out? I am okay with emailing a general question, but I was seeking a way to find out if this practice is made openly available to the public. If it is something that requires my having to ask, I may be opening my family up to a baptism by giving my information.

 

[ricko]

I have heard them say many times that their goal is to baptise every dead non-Mormon, EVERYBODY, even Jews. They never ask permission to do so and never let relatives know that they are doing it.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I have heard them say many times that their goal is to baptise every dead non-Mormon, EVERYBODY, even Jews. They never ask permission to do so and never let relatives know that they are doing it.

Maybe I don’t understand their dogmas, or doctrines, but that seems and appears to be spiritual hyjaking to me on the surface. I feel bad even saying that, because I know my great great grandfather really had a deep friendship with a Mormon. Still, it makes me feel as if this is somehow not right without some kind of consent to it. I respect others beliefs, even if I do not agree, but this seems odd. Why didn’t they notify us they did this? They were not at the funeral.

 

[Xavierlives]

Maybe I don’t understand their dogmas, or doctrines, but that seems and appears to be spiritual hyjaking to me on the surface. I feel bad even saying that, because I know my great great grandfather really had a deep friendship with a Mormon. Still, it makes me feel as if this is somehow not right without some kind of consent to it. I respect others beliefs, even if I do not agree, but this seems odd. Why didn’t they notify us they did this? They were not at the funeral.

Someone said to me, “Why do you care? you will be dead?”

 

[Catholic_to_LDS]

I am sorry that no one LDS member has posted. For your information, we are incouraged to do work for the dead. Yes, that means baptizem. BUT… this is for our family. There are rules, 1) the person has to be dead for at least one year, 2)they would have do state the relation. For example…I did work for my grandmother. I waited the one year and when putting in the paper work, I stated that she was my grandmother.

Your father may have been “baptized” in the church by proxy and there is a way to find out. Go on to Familysearch.org, Type in your father’s information. It should then tell you what if any work has been completed and the temple it was done in.

We believe that everyone dead or alive should have the right to recieve the rite of baptizm through the proper preisethood. This being said, the person has the right to accept it or reject it wether here or in the eternities. It doesn’t mean that we believe that person is going to hell or anything like that.

I view it this way…if a good, well meaning Catholic nurse could have “baptized” my baby when he was fighting for his life just after birth; because she was concerned for his eternal wellbeing…this would the same. We want to let every person that has lives to have the right to accept or reject the gosspel.

As far as the Jewish names that were take and work being done for them…it is my understanding that they nolonger are allowing this unless there is proof that the person putting in for the work is related. You can research this more if you like.

I would be more than happy to help put your mind at rest if you need help. Feel free to privatly contact me.

I hope that this helps. Understand that there is no malice or any disrespect toward you or your father. I hope that your friendship continues to grow…

 

[StrawberryJam]

Someone said to me, “Why do you care? you will be dead?”

Yes, my great great grandfather is dead. Did you even read my OP where I state I don’t care, yet want to know?

How nice of you to give this information. It’s very pertinent to the OP, and helps me today.

NOT

 

[StrawberryJam]

I am sorry that no one LDS member has posted. For your information, we are incouraged to do work for the dead. Yes, that means baptizem. BUT… this is for our family. There are rules, 1) the person has to be dead for at least one year, 2)they would have do state the relation. For example…I did work for my grandmother. I waited the one year and when putting in the paper work, I stated that she was my grandmother.

Your father may have been “baptized” in the church by proxy and there is a way to find out. Go on to Familysearch.org, Type in your father’s information. It should then tell you what if any work has been completed and the temple it was done in.

We believe that everyone dead or alive should have the right to recieve the rite of baptizm through the proper preisethood. This being said, the person has the right to accept it or reject it wether here or in the eternities. It doesn’t mean that we believe that person is going to hell or anything like that.

I view it this way…if a good, well meaning Catholic nurse could have “baptized” my baby when he was fighting for his life just after birth; because she was concerned for his eternal wellbeing…this would the same. We want to let every person that has lives to have the right to accept or reject the gosspel.

As far as the Jewish names that were take and work being done for them…it is my understanding that they nolonger are allowing this unless there is proof that the person putting in for the work is related. You can research this more if you like.

I would be more than happy to help put your mind at rest if you need help. Feel free to privatly contact me.

I hope that this helps. Understand that there is no malice or any disrespect toward you or your father. I hope that your friendship continues to grow…

Thank you, I will try the site you mention. I’m getting kicked off it (browser most likely) but will keep on trying.

I am just wondering if he was baptised, on what basis would that be?

A friend’s word?

 

[Xavierlives]

Yes, my great great grandfather is dead. Did you even read my OP where I state I don’t care, yet want to know?

How nice of you to give this information. It’s very pertinent to the OP, and helps me today.

NOT

Yes I read it, but I do care. What I am saying is, when I shared this with a fellow Christian, that was his basic response.

My concern is while a name and a body are of no value to God, there are decent men and women, in death, which are having their reputations run through a practice they did not subscribe to in life and should not posthumously find the recognition.

 

[AMDGtoo]

umm–What do you mean what basis? As Catholic to LDS said, they believe that all should be baptized LDS (they consider that the only “proper priesthood”). From what I understand, their youth even have “field trips” to their temple where people are proxy baptized, and their was once a lawsuit to prevent LDS baptisms of Holocaust victims.

 

[kozlosap]

Someone said to me, “Why do you care? you will be dead?”

I have many dear LDS friends and I know that both my daughter and I have been baptized by proxy. I am at peace with this because if it makes my friends happy, then so be it. I am at peace with being baptized into the “one true Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” and my soul knows where it will be! My daughter’s best friend in high school was Mormon and I allowed her to go to Young Women’s Group (Mormon faith study) with her friend. She was kicked out on the second day for spouting “Catholic” heresy! Sister Jean Marie at Holy Spirit Elementary School taught her well, as did the Jesuits at Loyoloa Marymount University. Live in Peace and walk with the Lord.

 

[twopekinguys]

There are alot of variables involved with this mormon practice.

While there is supposed to be a direct lineage, and certain waiting periods, this isn’t always followed. There are over zealous individuals in every faith.

For example, we all know that President Obama’s mother was baptized after her death. St. Damien, (who ministered to the Lepors of Hawaii) was baptized after his death, and had no living relatives. Adolph Hitler was baptized and sealed to Eva Braun after their deaths, and to my knowledge, they didn’t have any living relatives.

As far as the Jewish baptisms, that is still up for debate. Haulocaust victim names are still showing up as having proxy baptisms done for them, even though the mormon church has supposedly put more stringent safeguards in place to prevent this.

While your family member may be listed on familysearch.org, you won’t be able to see if the proxy baptism has been done. It is my understanding that the general public does not have access to this information, and that you need to have access to a mormon library, and/or access to their software called 'templeready". That is what will show the “ordinances” they have performed.

I found this information on rootsweb(part of ancestry.com) which provides some of the criteria they should be using:

There seems to be a little confusion as to what the 95 year rule and the 110
year rule are. They are two separate concepts and both are currently in
force according to the manuals.

1. The 110 year rule is that for anyone born within the last 110 years, you
   must have proof of death (or at least knowledge of that person’s death)
   before submitting their name for temple ordinances. One year must have
   elapsed since the death. Beyond 110 years, it is assumed that they have
   died. (not always a safe assumption)
2. The 95 year rule is that for anyone born within the last 95 years, you
   need permission from the closest living relative in order to perform their
   ordinances. This is in addition to the proof of death and one year waiting
   period required for those within the 110 year rule.

archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/LDS-WARD-CONSULTANT/2004-05/1084638561

While their intentions may be good, there have been many submissions which violate their own rules. Some people just get carried away I guess.

You can also google Helen Radkey. Many mormons will tell you that she is an antimormon looking to discredit their practices, but she has found many of the more obvious violations to their policies. I will leave it up to you to decide if her work is valid.

Hope this helps.

 

[TheosisM]

I have many dear LDS friends and I know that both my daughter and I have been baptized by proxy.

Just wanted to correct this. It is impossible for you and your daughter to have already been baptized by proxy. The whole point is that the person for whom the baptism is being done is dead. The baptismal formula used for proxy baptisms clearly states that the person is “dead”.

 

[kozlosap]

Just wanted to correct this. It is impossible for you and your daughter to have already been baptized by proxy. The whole point is that the person for whom the baptism is being done is dead. The baptismal formula used for proxy baptisms clearly states that the person is “dead”.

I was just stating what I was told by my daughter who was told that by her friend that traveled to the Oakland Temple to do “temple work”. I do understand how this practice would infuriate many people, but as I stated before, I’m not in any fear of being on one of Joseph Smith’s 3 planets which are the different orders or categories of Heaven, since I don’t believe in LDS theology, I will be safe.

My bigger problem with the whole concept of the LDS organization is how “closed” it is. When you look around the world you see Catholic hospitals, food banks and support systems that are open to everyone no matter what your religion. The Mormons are very adept at taking care of their own members. Many hundreds of thousands of non-Catholic students have graduated from Catholic universities around the world and received exceptional educations. I would venture an educated guess that there are not very many non-Mormons who attend BYU or its offshoots. When the earthquake struck Haiti, Catholic Relief did not stop and ask the victims if they were Catholic or not.

 

[TheosisM]

I was just stating what I was told by my daughter who was told that by her friend that traveled to the Oakland Temple to do “temple work”. I do understand how this practice would infuriate many people, but as I stated before, I’m not in any fear of being on one of Joseph Smith’s 3 planets which are the different orders or categories of Heaven, since I don’t believe in LDS theology, I will be safe.

Good view. I just wanted you to know that you haven’t been proxy baptized, since you have to be dead for that to be done.

My bigger problem with the whole concept of the LDS organization is how “closed” it is. When you look around the world you see Catholic hospitals, food banks and support systems that are open to everyone no matter what your religion. The Mormons are very adept at taking care of their own members. Many hundreds of thousands of non-Catholic students have graduated from Catholic universities around the world and received exceptional educations. I would venture an educated guess that there are not very many non-Mormons who attend BYU or its offshoots. When the earthquake struck Haiti, Catholic Relief did not stop and ask the victims if they were Catholic or not.

True, I went to one of those Catholic universities (Georgetown). It was only about 50-60% Catholic. Muslims were pretty visible (there’s a large international student population at Georgetown), as were Protestants. I think that BYU is more in line with the more…conservative Catholic institutions, where 90%+ of the population is Catholic, and where Catholicism permeates EVERYTHING. Georgetown and Notre Dame are on the more…liberal Catholic side of things, as great they are academically.

I’m sure that the Mormon charities did not stop and ask if the victims were Mormon or not, and the LDS church itself donated $4 million to Haiti in the first month, in addition to all the physical items, health care, etc, and is now building temporary housing for Haitians. Catholicism of course has more charitable and relief organizations, and is unparalleled in its aid programs (I myself donated to Catholic Relief Services for the Haiti cause), however we can’t say that Mormons just care about themselves.

 

[kozlosap]

Good view. I just wanted you to know that you haven’t been proxy baptized, since you have to be dead for that to be done.

True, I went to one of those Catholic universities (Georgetown). It was only about 50-60% Catholic. Muslims were pretty visible (there’s a large international student population at Georgetown), as were Protestants. I think that BYU is more in line with the more…conservative Catholic institutions, where 90%+ of the population is Catholic, and where Catholicism permeates EVERYTHING. Georgetown and Notre Dame are on the more…liberal Catholic side of things, as great they are academically.

I’m sure that the Mormon charities did not stop and ask if the victims were Mormon or not, and the LDS church itself donated $4 million to Haiti in the first month, in addition to all the physical items, health care, etc, and is now building temporary housing for Haitians. Catholicism of course has more charitable and relief organizations, and is unparalleled in its aid programs (I myself donated to Catholic Relief Services for the Haiti cause), however we can’t say that Mormons just care about themselves.

Thanks for the info! I enjoy your posts on the forums here. It is quite obvious that you are a very thoughtful and insightful person. I’ll add you to my prayer intentions that you are accepted into med school soon! My daughter attended a “well known” Jesuit university that is quite well known for its work in the area of social justice. I’ve been saddened recently by reading on different sites how very conservative Catholics are demeaning social- justice- based Catholic universities. Yes, there are very conservative Catholic universities that are available, however, I wanted my child to receive the best possible education available and that meant sending her to a “more diverse and open” environment that would be looked upon by graduate schools as an outstanding educational institution.

I have to backtrack and agree with you that I was being one sided in my assertion that Mormon’s only care about themselves. In my personal life my LDS friends are very caring about those who are Mormon and those who are not part of their church. Maybe it’s the corporate end of LDS that seems so remote to helping others. In my city, the LDS church does not take part in the community food bank which has been run by the interfaith council for nearly half a century. They assured our regional newspaper that they take care of their “own” needs. Thank goodness most other churches in our area don’t have that attitude!

 

[sablouwho]

In my city, the LDS church does not take part in the community food bank which has been run by the interfaith council for nearly half a century. They assured our regional newspaper that they take care of their “own” needs.

I’ve seen the LDS foodbank where I live (it is called the bishop’s storehouse.) From what I’ve been told, it is NOT limited to LDS church members.

The quote in the newspaper is unfortunate as I think it is misleading people to believe that LDS food banks are only for members, and that the LDS doesn’t help with disaster relief, as they most certainly do both, rather well, I might add.

Though they don’t seem to do nearly as good of a job (when compared to mainline Christians) at doing things in an interfaith/ecumenical manner.

 

[zerinus]

No real big deal here. Just a question, and I hope you don’t mind or get upset I am asking it. I do not care one way or the other what the answer is personally for me, but I do feel I should have a reply to my friend who is a non catholic christian on this.

Remember- I could care less what your reasons are for doing what you do, if they are right or wrong, biblical or not biblical. Here’s the scoop. My friend calls me and it comes down to her remembering my father’s passing last year today. She was kind enough to remember this, and she was present in a real life way during that time. Coming by to help, be a shoulder to cry on, and more. So much more. Never did she use that moment to push anything on me, or even use it as a reason to “evangelize” me, and when I look back, it was one of the most touching methods of evangelizing me to christianity if any reasons could be…
Anyhoo… Today she calls me to tell me she remembers Dad, and the cool things we all did as kids together growing up. I was amazed she remembered him in this way, and very touched by it. We caught up a bit, and while she knows I have been investigating christianity, she did not know all the details or extent I took, but did know I was seeking a catholic viewpoint on christianity. She never detracted me from this path.
Anyhoo… she asked rather abrubtly if anyone in my family was Mormon, or were friends with any Mormons. I thought back. Then, it occured to me that my great great grandfather had a friend that was Mormon. I remembered this because my father had pointed this out to me once. Anyway, she tells me I shouldn’t be surprised if he is baptised Mormon, even though he is dead, and never believed in his life.

How can I check if my family member was baptised by a well meaning friend that was Mormon, who did what he felt was the right thing to do for a person he cared about?

Is she right? Could this be possible?

I just want to know if she is right, or telling me distortions about Mormons. Apparently, my family had ties with one particular one years and years ago. Even though, they both risked a lot to be friends- apparently the culture then was not so open to differing views. They however, found a way to be friends in spite of that barrier.

What should I tell her? I have no way of knowing if she is right or wrong. She said “just google it”



I love her to pieces, and would never tell her that ticked me off right there. Just google it, is so not the right thing to say…

But, I don’t want to get upset about that minor detail since she is a lifelong friend. If you knew her, you would understand she did not mean that in a way that is bad, it’s just the only way she relies on information lately it seems.

Mormons are required to perform this rite for their own deceased relatives and ancestors, not those of others. Unless you have a family member who is a Mormon, that is unlikely to have been done. If your Dad had a close Mormon friend who wanted to do this work for him, he/she would have to ask your permission first.

 

[Mr_Skeptic]

In both baptism for the dead and infant baptism, the “baptizees” haven’t made a conscience choice/decision to be baptized.