Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[dianaiad]

I’ve seen the LDS foodbank where I live (it is called the bishop’s storehouse.) From what I’ve been told, it is NOT limited to LDS church members.

The quote in the newspaper is unfortunate as I think it is misleading people to believe that LDS food banks are only for members, and that the LDS doesn’t help with disaster relief, as they most certainly do both, rather well, I might add.

Though they don’t seem to do nearly as good of a job (when compared to mainline Christians) at doing things in an interfaith/ecumenical manner.

Sablou…I have found that when this happens, and you look a little deeper, it’s not so much because the Mormons won’t as it is because the others won’t let. “Mormons aren’t Christians”, remember?

 

[dianaiad]

In both baptism for the dead and infant baptism, the “baptizees” haven’t made a conscience choice/decision to be baptized.

Wrong.

Mr. Skeptic, while it is true that the INFANT has absolutely no choice in the matter, in the case of proxy baptism, the choice is entirely in the hands of the person for whom the work is done. Without his or her acceptance/permission, all a proxy baptism is–is ink on paper. Absolutely meaningless.

 

[vickimonica]

I have many dear LDS friends and I know that both my daughter and I have been baptized by proxy. I am at peace with this because if it makes my friends happy, then so be it. I am at peace with being baptized into the “one true Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” and my soul knows where it will be! My daughter’s best friend in high school was Mormon and I allowed her to go to Young Women’s Group (Mormon faith study) with her friend. She was kicked out on the second day for spouting “Catholic” heresy! Sister Jean Marie at Holy Spirit Elementary School taught her well, as did the Jesuits at Loyoloa Marymount University. Live in Peace and walk with the Lord.

You CANNOT be Baptised “by proxy” unless you are deceased. Period… If anyone is telling you otherwise – THEY ARE WRONG…

 

[StrawberryJam]

I have no idea what you are talking about. You have to explain.

You said this:

It is possible that temple work for the dead had not been revealed to the Book of Mormon people. Just because something is revealed to us, it does not mean that it should have been revealed to them

My question is, how can this be revealed to you then? Are you not a Book of Mormon person? This is very very confusing.

 

[dianaiad]

Too true. At least Catholics have confirmation, so there is a choice at some point.

Once dead, well that leaves us with a dead end there.

I know I’m taking my life in my hands here…but brother, do you have THIS one backwards! HOW many times have I been told about the ‘indelible mark’ that baptism leaves upon the soul of a Catholic, so that it can never be erased? Confirmation doesn’t affect it. Leaving the church doesn’t. Becoming something else doesn’t. Publically repudiating it doesn’t. It is indelible. The infant has absolutely no choice in the matter, and no way of rejecting it, either.

On the other hand, a proxy baptism is utterly dependent upon the will and choice of the person for whom the work is done. Of course, that assumes that there IS an afterlife, and that people there have wills and are able to make choices. Since we believe that both of these apply, you can’t really decide that our baptisms force the dead to be something they don’t want to be.

Not when WE don’t think it does, y’know.

 

[vickimonica]

I was just stating what I was told by my daughter who was told that by her friend that traveled to the Oakland Temple to do “temple work”. I do understand how this practice would infuriate many people, but as I stated before, I’m not in any fear of being on one of Joseph Smith’s 3 planets which are the different orders or categories of Heaven, since I don’t believe in LDS theology, I will be safe.

My bigger problem with the whole concept of the LDS organization is how “closed” it is. When you look around the world you see Catholic hospitals, food banks and support systems that are open to everyone no matter what your religion. The Mormons are very adept at taking care of their own members. Many hundreds of thousands of non-Catholic students have graduated from Catholic universities around the world and received exceptional educations. I would venture an educated guess that there are not very many non-Mormons who attend BYU or its offshoots. When the earthquake struck Haiti, Catholic Relief did not stop and ask the victims if they were Catholic or not.

BYU WILL offer an educational experience to a non-mormon who can play a good game of football…

 

[dianaiad]

Good enough for me. Thank you and have a great planet one day!

I’m…going for a universe.

 

[zerinus]

You said this:

It is possible that temple work for the dead had not been revealed to the Book of Mormon people. Just because something is revealed to us, it does not mean that it should have been revealed to them

My question is, how can this be revealed to you then? Are you not a Book of Mormon person? This is very very confusing.

I am still puzzled by your question. Nothing has been “revealed” to me. We don’t believe that everything that has been revealed in one dispensation of the gospel, must have been revealed in every other dispensation of the gospel. The Nephites had a dispensation of the gospel given to them; and so have we. It does not follow that everything that has been revealed to us should have been revealed to them (or vice versa). The Nephite people did have temples, but since nothing is mentioned in the Book of Mormon about the temple work for the dead, it remains questionable whether the rites of temple work for the dead had been revealed to them or not. No one can say they know for sure.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Those who have had the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life and rejected it, will not get a second chance in the next life. Baptism for the dead is for those who have not had that opportunity in this life.

I formally resigned from the Mormon Church. I rejected the “Mormon Gospel” in this lifetime; yet the only thing the LDS Records Division could assure, is that no proxy rites would be performed “while I am still living.” So, one can formally reject Mormonism in life, and still have proxy rites performed and attached to one’s name in death.

Anna

 

[zerinus]

I formally resigned from the Mormon Church. I rejected the “Mormon Gospel” in this lifetime; yet the only thing the LDS Records Division could assure, is that no proxy rites would be performed “while I am still living.” So, one can formally reject Mormonism in life, and still have proxy rites performed and attached to one’s name in death.

Anna

Sorry, my original post had not been correctly worded. I should have said: “Baptism for the dead is only effective for those who have not had that opportunity in this life.” So even though you may be baptized by proxy by your future descendants after death, it will not do you any good if you have willfully rejected that gospel in this life.

 

[dianaiad]

I formally resigned from the Mormon Church. I rejected the “Mormon Gospel” in this lifetime; yet the only thing the LDS Records Division could assure, is that no proxy rites would be performed “while I am still living.” So, one can formally reject Mormonism in life, and still have proxy rites performed and attached to one’s name in death.

Anna

Anna, rest assured that even if one of your descendents slips through the filters and does proxy work for you, it won’t mean a thing.

I’m not certain it would even if by that time you actually wanted it…but I could be wrong there.

Of course, if you are correct, you won’t know about it anyway, so what’s the problem? I mean, really? You are going to be around for many millions of years, spiritually–even if time counts there, then…whatever.

So…you are worried about it NOW? What, are you really afraid that we are right, and that this stuff actually works? (grin) Now that WOULD be irony…

 

[StrawberryJam]

I am still puzzled by your question. Nothing has been “revealed” to me. We don’t believe that everything that has been revealed in one dispensation of the gospel, must have been revealed in every other dispensation of the gospel. The Nephites had a dispensation of the gospel given to them; and so have we. It does not follow that everything that has been revealed to us should have been revealed to them (or vice versa). The Nephite people did have temples, but since nothing is mentioned in the Book of Mormon about the temple work for the dead, it remains questionable whether the rites of temple work for the dead had been revealed to them or not. No one can say they know for sure.

So, Nephites= People of the Book of Mormon? Current Mormons are just LDS, not people of the Book of Mormon, that use the book of Mormon but are not called the People of the Book of Mormon.

I did not mean to limit your eternal happiness to one planet earlier. After reading another LDS posters comment to my wishes for you, it appears that may have sounded like a rather limited best wishes. Of course, if universe is what the goal is, I hope you have a great one someday!

So much to learn about this. All I wanted to know is if these rights took place, and hoped they won’t ever happen for me because I want people to spend their time doing something they love rather than worry about this kind of thing. What a can of worms came from these simple questions!

 

[StrawberryJam]

Anna, rest assured that even if one of your descendents slips through the filters and does proxy work for you, it won’t mean a thing.

I’m not certain it would even if by that time you actually wanted it…but I could be wrong there.

Of course, if you are correct, you won’t know about it anyway, so what’s the problem? I mean, really? You are going to be around for many millions of years, spiritually–even if time counts there, then…whatever.

So…you are worried about it NOW? What, are you really afraid that we are right, and that this stuff actually works? (grin) Now that WOULD be irony…

Put it to you this way. Some people have objections to the practice not because they find the practice or believe the practice is or is not effacious, but because they have cut all ties to anyone preforming them and do not wish for any connection to them after coming to the conclusion they are false teachers, teaching false practices. God condemns people for association with people who utilize false practices. So, if someone comes to the conclusion they are false, they can’t and don’t want any part of them because they do not wish to be involved or connected to them, even if they are utterly useless. I’d be upset if I found my name on the rolls of a Creationist church. Not because I am afraid they may be right, but because their teaching is utterly offensive to me.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I formally resigned from the Mormon Church. I rejected the “Mormon Gospel” in this lifetime; yet the only thing the LDS Records Division could assure, is that no proxy rites would be performed “while I am still living.” So, one can formally reject Mormonism in life, and still have proxy rites performed and attached to one’s name in death.

Anna

I don’t see why they can’t just go the full mile and assure you they won’t let it be done by anyone ever. That would be the best way to handle this.

Mormons? Why can’t she just get this assurance?

 

[zerinus]

So, Nephites= People of the Book of Mormon? Current Mormons are just LDS, not people of the Book of Mormon, that use the book of Mormon but are not called the People of the Book of Mormon.

Sorry, I thought you were familiar with the Book of Mormon and the jargon associated with it. Yes, the “Nephites” are among the people that the Book of Mormon talks about. The Book of Mormon is a sacred history of the ancient inhabitants of the American continent, who had been of Hebrew ancestry and brought to the Americas by the hand of the Lord. Those were the people I was referring to by the “Book of Mormon people”. If you get a chance to read the Book of Mormon some day, you will discover that for yourself.

I did not mean to limit your eternal happiness to one planet earlier. After reading another LDS posters comment to my wishes for you, it appears that may have sounded like a rather limited best wishes. Of course, if universe is what the goal is, I hope you have a great one someday!

Thank you for your wishes. I am not overly ambitious. I am content with the “world” the Lord has already given me here on earth!

So much to learn about this. All I wanted to know is if these rights took place, and hoped they won’t ever happen for me because I want people to spend their time doing something they love rather than worry about this kind of thing.

And I told you that the temple work for the dead is something that the Mormons “love” doing.

What a can of worms came from these simple questions!

When you ask people questions about their religion, you are always likely to open a “can of worms”. You should prepare yourself for that before you ask.

 

[AMDGtoo]

in times of trouble, our Bishop’s warehouses are thrown open to everybody.

To be honest, the only way one can avail him or herself of the bishop’s warehouse, is to volunteer to work there (or have a friend who already works there.) At least this has been the experiences of both my daughters.

And also, according to convert daughter, all LDS households have to store year’s worth of food and water (yes, they specify how much grain, how much peanut butter, etc.) for times of trouble in the first place.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I formally resigned from the Mormon Church. I rejected the “Mormon Gospel” in this lifetime; yet the only thing the LDS Records Division could assure, is that no proxy rites would be performed “while I am still living.” So, one can formally reject Mormonism in life, and still have proxy rites performed and attached to one’s name in death.

Anna

Sorry, my original post had not been correctly worded. I should have said: “Baptism for the dead is only effective for those who have not had that opportunity in this life.” So even though you may be baptized by proxy by your future descendants after death, it will not do you any good if you have willfully rejected that gospel in this life.

I don’t see why they can’t just go the full mile and assure you they won’t let it be done by anyone ever. That would be the best way to handle this.

Mormons? Why can’t she just get this assurance?

Strawberry,

There have been a number of Threads about this issue of proxy baptism. Most Mormons don’t care if it bothers me or anyone else. There is a complete lack of respect of anyone’s wishes, when it comes to proxy baptism.

I don’t want my name connected with Mormonism in life or death. It does matter to me.

We have laws that protect our right to religious freedom, which includes the right to formally resign from a religion. Sadly, the right to religious freedom, and the protection under the law, ends when we die.

Dianaiad’s response demonstrates the lack of respect. Look at her last comment: “So…you are worried about it NOW? What, are you really afraid that we are right, and that this stuff actually works? (grin) Now that WOULD be irony…”

Dianaiad seems to really enjoy the fact that this could be done to me, against my wishes.

Anna, rest assured that even if one of your descendents slips through the filters and does proxy work for you, it won’t mean a thing.

I’m not certain it would even if by that time you actually wanted it…but I could be wrong there.

Of course, if you are correct, you won’t know about it anyway, so what’s the problem? I mean, really? You are going to be around for many millions of years, spiritually–even if time counts there, then…whatever.

So…you are worried about it NOW? What, are you really afraid that we are right, and that this stuff actually works? (grin) Now that WOULD be irony…

 

[StrawberryJam]

Zerenius,

Thanks for expressing yourself in a civil manner. I wish all Mormons would do that.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Without his or her acceptance/permission, all a proxy baptism is–is ink on paper. Absolutely meaningless.

I wish that was so, but if it was then why do y’all subsequently do yet another Mormon ordinance to the non-Mormon dearly departed–that of sealing?

Actually I understand why the Jewish people had a lawsuit trying to stop Mormon Baptism of the Dead, and why the Catholic Church has started to deny access to death records. Baptism of the Dead comes across as terribly disrespectful to the dead’s memory. It smacks of robbing a grave. The dead person doesn’t care because the dead person is …dead, but the mere fact that it’s illegal should make one pause to consider why that is so.

 

[sablouwho]

Sablou…I have found that when this happens, and you look a little deeper, it’s not so much because the Mormons won’t as it is because the others won’t let. “Mormons aren’t Christians”, remember?

Well, ignoring my own opinion for a moment on whether LDS are Christian, for *interfaith *activities, one need not be Christian in the first place.

I realize that this may be hard to believe, but it was one of my temple-going LDS friends who first made me aware of this. He sees the good in the LDS Church for sure, but he also sees the limitations.