Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[dianaiad]

I don’t think Jews believe that, and yet I wouldn’t label them as hypocrites.

And Protestants (generally) don’t make the claim that they are “the only true church.”

I know less about other religions so I can’t really comment on anything else.

From what I’ve seen, outside of Catholic and LDS circles, this idea doesn’t get nearly as much emphasis.

You haven’t been targeted by evangalistic types much, have you? Of course, in many cases it’s not so much a case of “my specific sect is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH,’ as it is “I’m a Christian (and “Christian” is defined by a specific set of beliefs that, ironically, just happens to match exactly with whatever that specific sect declares to be true) and you’re not.” It’s sort of a backwards claim of 'only true church:” not so much “I’m it,” but 'nobody else is."

…and I’ve seen a LOT of that.

 

[Tmaque]

Well, yeah. I do believe that. I believe that if someone hasn’t had a chance to hear the gospel here on earth, that they will have the chance to hear it after they die–and if they hear it, then they have the chance to accept or reject it.

The problem I’m seeing with you is that on one hand, you say that once someone dies that’s it; judgment is rendered and one is either in heaven or in hell, pffft. it’s done. However, you still ask God to show mercy, to shorten time in purgatory…in other words, to change that judgment. You can’t HAVE both, y’know. Either it’s done at death, in which case it’s rather a waste of time to ask God to change anything, or praying/lighting candles/saying Masses for the souls of the dead is effective, in which case it’s NOT ‘done.’ at death.

So…is it done, or isn’t it? We believe that in one way, it is; we will be judged according to how we lived here. On the other hand, it’s not–because we CAN still learn, and context changes. We may have made decisions here that, had we known of Christ, we would not have made. We can, we believe, choose to listen, learn–and place our actions in the context of the truth, and go from there. IF we choose to accept Christ, when we finally learn about Him in truth.

There is a saying about mortal law: ignorance of the law is no excuse. Well, we believe, in terms of religion, that ignorance of the law is EVERY excuse—but eventually we will all be given the chance to learn, so that we can grow.

Dianaiad,

You misunderstand what purgatory is. It is in essence the mudroom of heaven where the forgiven get cleansed of their attachment to sin before they can enter the main house. Just because we are forgiven of a sin doesn’t mean we still aren’t attracted to the sin. If you make it to purgatory you WILL end up in heaven. It’s just a matter of time. We pray for people to help them get through it, just as we pray for someone going through a trial here on earth.

As you said it is “done” at death. You will either end up in heaven or hell. Going to purgatory means we 're going to heaven and so it is a good thing! St. John tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, St. Paul tells us that many will be saved but only as if passing through fire. In purgatory, we are cleansed of our attachment to anything other than God, only then can we enter His presence. I imagine it will be painful to be purged of all attachment to sin. That’s ok, I for one welcome it.

But please understand what something actually is before you argue against it.

 

[sablouwho]

You haven’t been targeted by evangalistic types much, have you? Of course, in many cases it’s not so much a case of “my specific sect is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH,’ as it is “I’m a Christian (and “Christian” is defined by a specific set of beliefs that, ironically, just happens to match exactly with whatever that specific sect declares to be true) and you’re not.” It’s sort of a backwards claim of 'only true church:” not so much “I’m it,” but 'nobody else is."

True, I wasn’t targeted too much by evangelists, only a little. But the first church I joined after my conversion was evangelical. Though I admit I haven’t had much contact with evangelicals who were strongly persuaded of the “Truth” of their particular denominations or sects beliefs, it’s more that they were saying Trinitarian Christianity was true. At least that is what I’ve experienced.

The “one true church” talk seems more confined to Catholics and Mormons. And with Catholics, the place I hear it most discussed is on places like CAF-- I find that IRL Catholics don’t talk about this nearly as much, whereas LDS do talk about it more than Catholics, in my experience.

 

[AMDGtoo]

iI am getting the feeling that when I quote Paul as saying that a person has “run the race” I say that the person who has passed on “has gone to their reward”, the LDS think that life just continues on–the person keeps on running the race (just for the sake of keeping on keeping on) and there is never any reward of being with God. Well no, as Hebrews 9:27 tell us, “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”.** There is no second chance. It’s over–then we are judged and either live with God in heaven or go to the place without God (that we have freely chosen when we “run the race”.)** Souls can no longer pray for themselves. That is up to us. Afterall we are one big family, those who have “passed on” and those who are alive on earth–the Communion of Saints.

As to wearing black to funerals, I don’t think there is any “hard and fast” rule, it’s only custom not to wear something brazen as if it were a party. (I know I wore a dark taupe jacket-dress to my mother’s funeral and I didn’t get criticized and I know that the color white is used in the funeral for a Catholic small child, since the child is considered innocent.) BTW it is somewhat cultural. I hear that the color white is often used in funerals by the Chinese.

 

[Jay53]

Yes. They are to God, asking HIM to do something to/for your loved ones. You aren’t asking your loved ones. Certainly your prayers do not coerce HIM…He can do as He wishes. You are asking Him to coerce THEM.

Again, NO!!! You truly just do not get what Catholics believe, or you don’t want to get it or something. We are not asking God to coerce anyone to do anything. We are asking God to shorten their time in purgatory so that they can get to Heaven. There is no decision-making on the part of the deceased with regard to this. None. There is no question to even answer with a yes or no.

I am operating under the assumption that everybody has the right to say no, else we are no more than puppets on strings. Whether they WILL or not may be problematic…however, the possibility must remain open. After all, as I have posted before, at least one being DID say ‘no…’ and he was in a better situation than anybody in purgatory at the time.

OK. Except a person’s option to say yes or no is their own choice BEFORE death (and possibly at the moment of death).

You are quite right. That is what it would mean. However, you don’t seem to be able to wrap your mind around the idea that someone would actually want to do that, do you? The problem is, as Milton said of Satan, some might think that it is “better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.” You, assuming that nobody would ever choose that option, don’t give anyone the choice to take it.

I most certainly CAN see that someone would say no to God. That’s the whole point of free will; and the whole reason for hell. My point, which you don’t seem to want to see is that the choice is made BEFORE death, not after. We are not coercing God to do anything and God is not coercing the deceased to do anything. If someone is in Purgatory, they are assured of going to Heaven. They HAVE ALREADY MADE THEIR CHOICE!!!

That’s a lot of “probably’s” and assumptions, Jay…and you might be right. Or not. The point is, you don’t give those for whom you pray the option. That’s fine–it’s your faith and you should practice it the way you want to. I’m simply pointing out that you don’t give them the option. Trying to explain WHY you don’t see the need to do so doesn’t change the fact that you don’t give them the option, does it?

You STILL don’t get it. THERE IS NO OPTION OR DECISION TO BE MADE!!! Our prayers are to God to lessen their time in Purgatory. That’s it!!! If God says Yes, He will shorten their time; if He says no, He won’t. And if the person doesn’t want God’s grace, then I’m sure God wouldn’t give it to them, but that means they’re probably not even in Purgatory to begin with.

I am not in any way suggesting that you should not pray for your deceased loved ones, or to ask God’s mercy for them. That you do so shows faith and love. I am simply pointing out that this is what you do…and this is what we do not do. What we do is a: to offer a choice and b: to record that we did offer the choice. That’s it…and the only thing I am pointing out is that it is illogical to say that Mormons are offensive and wrong when we offer a free choice BECAUSE doing so is coercive and disrespectful to the wishes of the dead, when what you do is done without even acknowledging that they might have a different opinion on the matter.

And again, I am saying there is no decision to be made. I honestly don’t care if you do this proxy work or not. Personally, I would not/do not want my name associated with anything Mormon because I firmly believe that it is false, but fortunately I’m not in a position where this proxy work would be done for me (and God willing I never will be).

For one thing, I know for a fact that at least one Catholic has sincerely prayed that God would change my mind and that I would leave Mormonism and become Catholic. She’s been doing it for years. I love her dearly for it, too. I am simply noting the irony of this: I’m HERE. She could ask me what I want, face to face—but no, she’s asking God to make me do something she KNOWS I don’t want to do. She sees nothing at all wrong with that…and at the same time she yells at me because Mormons do proxy work which actually DOES ‘ask’ the person for whom it is done very directly whether they want any part of it or not.

And yes, we do accept ‘no’ for an answer, and beyond that, we can even imagine that some might, and will, do just that. Say no.

(grin)

Regarding my friend; if I ever did become Catholic, I know that she would give God–and herself–the credit. My own inclinations would never be a factor. I told her once that I was returning the favor, and praying for her, as well. She really got her feathers ruffled, too…until I told her that I prayed that she would constantly be guided to 'the truth." Please note the difference between what she prays for, and what I do. On one level, SHE sure did, though the irony hasn’t occured to her even yet. She simply said “Oh, that’s OK, I already have the truth. Go ahead…”

(shaking head…)

Your friends prayers are not asking God to coerce you to do anything. Even if they were, we cannot force God to do anything that is against His Will. I would guess that her prayers are more that God will soften your heart and lead you to His Truth. You are obviously free to say no, which you obviously have (so far ), and if you continue to say no, God will not force you and you will remain Mormon.

Please see Tmaque’s post for a good explanation about Purgatory or read the link that I posted, because based on your responses you didn’t read it or you read it and didn’t understand it.

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad,

You misunderstand what purgatory is. It is in essence the mudroom of heaven where the forgiven get cleansed of their attachment to sin before they can enter the main house. Just because we are forgiven of a sin doesn’t mean we still aren’t attracted to the sin. If you make it to purgatory you WILL end up in heaven. It’s just a matter of time. We pray for people to help them get through it, just as we pray for someone going through a trial here on earth.

As you said it is “done” at death. You will either end up in heaven or hell. Going to purgatory means we 're going to heaven and so it is a good thing! St. John tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, St. Paul tells us that many will be saved but only as if passing through fire. In purgatory, we are cleansed of our attachment to anything other than God, only then can we enter His presence. I imagine it will be painful to be purged of all attachment to sin. That’s ok, I for one welcome it.

But please understand what something actually is before you argue against it.

I understand what it is, m’friend. What I am ‘arguing’ isn’t against the idea of purgatory. It’s about identifying the very simple fact that when you pray for souls in purgatory, you aren’t asking them for permission. You aren’t asking them what they want. You are simply assuming that OF COURSE they would welcome your aid…(and what of those who, because nobody knew them or because they have been dead too long, or because those who did know them are not Catholic, or any number of other things, don’t GET those prayers, candles and Masses said for them? Is their stay in purgatory longer and harder because they didn’t make friends? Hey, it’s a valid question.)

The point is choice. You aren’t giving them any.

 

[dianaiad]

Again, NO!!! You truly just do not get what Catholics believe, or you don’t want to get it or something. We are not asking God to coerce anyone to do anything. We are asking God to shorten their time in purgatory so that they can get to Heaven. There is no decision-making on the part of the deceased with regard to this. None. There is no question to even answer with a yes or no.

Exactly right…and that’s precisely the point. Nobody asks the question.

My point isn’t about whether your practice of praying for the dead is good, bad or indifferent. It is your faith, and you firmly believe that you are doing good here. I don’t have a problem with any of it…I’m simply pointing out something that you have very succinctly admitted; nobody asks the question. Nobody gives the dead an option here.

And that, even when what is happening is very good and very loving, is coercion, by definition.

Can you see where, from where I sit, that I might have a problem with people who believe as you do who criticise ME for doing something 'against the wishes" of those who have passed on or their families?

 

[Jay53]

I understand what it is, m’friend. What I am ‘arguing’ isn’t against the idea of purgatory. It’s about identifying the very simple fact that when you pray for souls in purgatory, you aren’t asking them for permission. You aren’t asking them what they want. You are simply assuming that OF COURSE they would welcome your aid…(and what of those who, because nobody knew them or because they have been dead too long, or because those who did know them are not Catholic, or any number of other things, don’t GET those prayers, candles and Masses said for them? Is their stay in purgatory longer and harder because they didn’t make friends? Hey, it’s a valid question.)

The point is choice. You aren’t giving them any.

Why would we need permission to pray to God? You just don’t get that there is no choice about anything - there is no question, no decision to be made.

As to those who are in Purgatory and don’t have any relatives/friends to pray for them (i.e Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, etc who don’t even know their family/friends are there and need our prayers), the rest of us are supposed to pray for them. I try to do that every day. Their stay in Purgatory is based on their life, not how many friends they have. The Catholic Church offers Masses regularly for the Poor Souls in Purgatory.

I’m sure there are many prayers that people can say, but this is one that I say frequently:

Eternal Father I offer you the most precious Blood of your Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal Church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen.

St. Gertrude the Great is invoked for souls in purgatory and for living sinners. Our Lord told St. Gertrude that the following prayer the one I posted above] would release 1000 souls from purgatory each time it is said. The prayer was extended to include living sinners as well. catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=424

 

[AMDGtoo]

For one thing, I know for a fact that at least one Catholic has sincerely prayed that God would change my mind and that I would leave Mormonism and become Catholic. She’s been doing it for years. I love her dearly for it, too. I am simply noting the irony of this: I’m HERE. She could ask me what I want, face to face—but no, she’s asking God to make me do something she KNOWS I don’t want to do.

Actually, all your friend is doing is asking God to soften your heart that you may be attuned to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Regarding my friend; if I ever did become Catholic, I know that she would give God–and herself–the credit.

Well you are somewhat wrong and somewhat right. Only the Holy Spirit can convert others, so yes the credit will be God’s (who has already said that He wants all to be saved.) However, we, as creatures, can only pray–“man proposes, God desposes”–even if our prayers and witness do have the result of conversion.

My own inclinations would never be a factor.

Wrong again. In fact it is your hardness of heart (or as you say, your own inclinations) that are already influencing your decision.

 

[Jay53]

Exactly right…and that’s precisely the point. Nobody asks the question.

My point isn’t about whether your practice of praying for the dead is good, bad or indifferent. It is your faith, and you firmly believe that you are doing good here. I don’t have a problem with any of it…I’m simply pointing out something that you have very succinctly admitted; nobody asks the question. Nobody gives the dead an option here.

And that, even when what is happening is very good and very loving, is coercion, by definition.

Can you see where, from where I sit, that I might have a problem with people who believe as you do who criticise ME for doing something 'against the wishes" of those who have passed on or their families?

:banghead:
What question are we supposed to ask?

 

[dianaiad]

Why would we need permission to pray to God? You just don’t get that there is no choice about anything - there is no question, no decision to be made.

No, I DO get that. That’s what I am pointing out to you, that you don’t believe that there is such a choice.

…and we believe that there is. Everything we do is based upon this belief, that there IS a choice.

As to those who are in Purgatory and don’t have any relatives/friends to pray for them (i.e Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, etc who don’t even know their family/friends are there and need our prayers), the rest of us are supposed to pray for them. I try to do that every day. Their stay in Purgatory is based on their life, not how many friends they have. The Catholic Church offers Masses regularly for the Poor Souls in Purgatory.

If it is based upon their lives, how can anything YOU do affect that?

I’m sure there are many prayers that people can say, but this is one that I say frequently:

Eternal Father I offer you the most precious Blood of your Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal Church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen.

And that is a very nice, all encompassing prayer that shows your concern…and I am not being the least bit facetious or mocking when I say that. The question still remains; if you don’t think it does anybody any good, why do it?

 

[dianaiad]

Actually, all your friend is doing is asking God to soften your heart that you may be attuned to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Uhmn, no…she’s straight out asking God to make me leave Mormonism and become a Catholic. However, putting it your way is STILL asking God to do something to me without my permission.

by the way, I already believe that I AM 'attuned to the promptings of the Holy Spirit." At least, when I don’t let my temper get in the way.

Well you are somewhat wrong and somewhat right. Only the Holy Spirit can convert others, so yes the credit will be God’s (who has already said that He wants all to be saved.) However, we, as creatures, can only pray–“man proposes, God desposes”–even if our prayers and witness do have the result of conversion.

Wrong again. In fact it is your hardness of heart (or as you say, your own inclinations) that are already influencing your decision.

 

[dianaiad]

:banghead:
What question are we supposed to ask?

Oh, how about…do you want any of this?

 

[TheosisM]

Praying/Masses for the dead is no different than someone praying to God that their friend or relative gets better during sickness, or for someone to have a safe trip. If someone does these things (which many do), they may be doing it without the permission of the person being prayed for. So, if praying for the dead is coercive, it’s also coercive to pray that someone gets better, unless you ask for their permission, though it may be hard if they are unconscious (but that doesn’t stop most people from praying for that person).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Praying/Masses for the dead is no different than someone praying to God that their friend or relative gets better during sickness, or for someone to have a safe trip. If someone does these things (which many do), they may be doing it without the permission of the person being prayed for. So, if praying for the dead is coercive, it’s also coercive to pray that someone gets better, unless you ask for their permission, though it may be hard if they are unconscious (but that doesn’t stop most people from praying for that person).

But, but, whatif they don’t wanna get better?!?!?!?! Stop forcing God to heal people!

 

[Jay53]

But, but, whatif they don’t wanna get better?!?!?!?! Stop forcing God to heal people!

Not to mention we better not be praying for any of the earthquake victims unless we have their permission!! Or our armed forces - we better not be praying for their safety unless we know for sure they want us to do that! Or even better how about world peace - do we have the permission of everyone in the world to pray for that?

 

[Jay53]

Oh, how about…do you want any of this?

Any of WHAT? Please be specific because you’re not making any sense.

I thought of an analogy that might help you understand.

Think of purgatory as a prison sentence (with really hard labor ). The person has already been sentenced to say 20 years. They’ve made their choices in life and this is their sentence. Nothing they do can reduce their own sentence. But, at the end of 20 years the person will be admitted to a perfect paradise resort with no suffering etc. Now, our prayers are simply to the judge asking Him to reduce their sentence a little bit and send them to the resort sooner or to make their labor a little easier. The judge may say yes, the judge may say no. Our prayers do not change the judgment, just maybe reduce the sentence.

It seems like you are expecting us to ask the prisoner if they want their sentence reduced. ??? If they actually didn’t want their sentence reduced, the judge would already know this (He knows everything) and wouldn’t reduce it. Nothing we do or say would change that. The person would do the full 20 years.

Where is there anything coercive on anyone’s part?

 

[mfbukowski]

Praying/Masses for the dead is no different than someone praying to God that their friend or relative gets better during sickness, or for someone to have a safe trip. If someone does these things (which many do), they may be doing it without the permission of the person being prayed for. So, if praying for the dead is coercive, it’s also coercive to pray that someone gets better, unless you ask for their permission, though it may be hard if they are unconscious (but that doesn’t stop most people from praying for that person).

I agree, and we often when giving blessings for example, say in essence, “thy will be done”.

I have been in situations where I have been asked to give a priesthood blessing to someone where death is apparently imminent, and sometimes I have been inspired to bless the person to be able to follow the Lord’s will in peace, but in other situations I have felt that they should get better, and have blessed them to do so, and it happened. So we just have to be guided by the spirit.

But what I have found is that prayer is very effective in adjusting attitudes – in my own case, when I pray for an “attitude adjustment” it almost always comes, and I think that often changing the sick, worried, depressed or confused person’s attitude is what makes the difference. Perhaps that is really what it is all about- the Lord helps our attitude, and we do the rest. Perhaps if we just pray that the individual will be guided by the spirit to do the Lord’s will.

“Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” is a line I picked up somewhere…

 

[mfbukowski]

Our prayers do not change the judgment, just maybe reduce the sentence.

Why?

And I thought God was unchanging. If he changes his mind because we ask him to, how is he unchanging?

You just don’t seem to follow these beliefs through to their logical ends.

 

[Jay53]

Why?

And I thought God was unchanging. If he changes his mind because we ask him to, how is he unchanging?

You just don’t seem to follow these beliefs through to their logical ends.

Why what?

God is unchanging. He already knows what is going to happen with/to everyone. I don’t understand your question.