Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[mfbukowski]

Why what?

God is unchanging. He already knows what is going to happen with/to everyone. I don’t understand your question.

So he is just pretending to make someone’s sentence in purgatory shorter? (Since he already knows he is going to and we prayed for that person?)

 

[Jay53]

So he is just pretending to make someone’s sentence in purgatory shorter? (Since he already knows he is going to and we prayed for that person?)

That’s just silly. If you’re seriously asking about this, then post this in the philosophy section. This kind of question falls under the “Why does God (do anything)” category, i.e. Why did God create Adam & Eve if he knew they would fall, why do we have to pray at all if God already knows where we’re going to end up, why do we pray for sick people for their healing or conversion or whatever if God already knows what He is going to do etc etc.

 

[twopekinguys]

Why?

And I thought God was unchanging. If he changes his mind because we ask him to, how is he unchanging?

You just don’t seem to follow these beliefs through to their logical ends.

The traditional Christian view is that God is unchanging.

We “ask” God to show mercy. Ultimately, we don’t know if he does, but we “ask”.

However, the mormon view appears to be different when you consider the change of the mormon stance on polygamy, and blacks holding the priesthood. It is clear by changing these practices that mormons believe that God changes.

I am afraid that it is you that doesn’t “seem to follow these beliefs through to their logical ends”.

Mormon doctrine however has shown

 

[RebeccaJ]

So he is just pretending to make someone’s sentence in purgatory shorter? (Since he already knows he is going to and we prayed for that person?)

I’m assuming, or maybe hoping, you have a deeper understanding of prayer than this. Or, perhaps the mormon view of God-as-vending-machine is really just that.

 

[dianaiad]

Praying/Masses for the dead is no different than someone praying to God that their friend or relative gets better during sickness, or for someone to have a safe trip. If someone does these things (which many do), they may be doing it without the permission of the person being prayed for. So, if praying for the dead is coercive, it’s also coercive to pray that someone gets better, unless you ask for their permission, though it may be hard if they are unconscious (but that doesn’t stop most people from praying for that person).

You are absolutely right about this, Theosis. My point about the coercive factor isn’t that it isn’t sometimes welcomed, and sometimes a very good thing…it is simply that it IS, after all, coercive, (in the sense that those for whom we pray are generally not consulted about it) where the LDS proxy work is not.

I am not in any way criticising those who pray for others or who light candles or say Masses. This is your faith, and you should practice it as you think it should be practiced. I think it shows love and faith, myself. I am simply pointing out the irony of those who engage in such practices criticising LDS proxy work BECAUSE they consider it to be coercive when, between the two concepts, the LDS idea of proxy work is about as NON-coercive as it is possible to get.

 

[dianaiad]

But, but, whatif they don’t wanna get better?!?!?!?! Stop forcing God to heal people!

Rebecca…this isn’t about what God can do. It’s about what WE do…and even though it is almost impossible to wrap one’s mind around the idea that someone might say 'leave me alone!"…the thing is, someone actually did just that, remember?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca…this isn’t about what God can do. It’s about what WE do…and even though it is almost impossible to wrap one’s mind around the idea that someone might say 'leave me alone!"…the thing is, someone actually did just that, remember?

A proxy baptism is more than a prayer!

 

[dianaiad]

Not to mention we better not be praying for any of the earthquake victims unless we have their permission!! Or our armed forces - we better not be praying for their safety unless we know for sure they want us to do that! Or even better how about world peace - do we have the permission of everyone in the world to pray for that?

This isn’t about whether you should or should not pray. It is simply and only about the fact that a: you DO pray and consider it to be a good thing to do so (and by the way, so do I for the same reasons) and b: you do NOT ask permission. You ask God to do something to them without asking them first. The assumption is, and it’s probably a very good assumption, that most of them would appreciate the help. However, there are a LOT of people who resent not being asked first, and who, if you DID ask them first, would say ‘no thank you,’ or “I appreciate the thought, but no thanks…” or “How DARE you, you sons and daughters of Belial, pray to your false God on my behalf!”

After all, isn’t that last something along the lines of the criticisms people have of LDS proxy work…and doesn’t the irony of that occur to you, since what WE do absolutely requires the permission and willing acceptance of those for whom we actually do the work?

In fact, if the irony doesn’t immediately occur to you, I’ll pound it home. You pray to God to help others, without inquiring whether those others would want, or appreciate, your prayers. You think it’s fine, because you have nothing but good in mind when you do this. Then y’all criticise US–not because we don’t get the permission of those for whom we do this (because we actually DO that!) but because we don’t get YOUR permission to do work for someone for whom you have no right to make decisions.

It’s actually rather deliciously ironic, when you think about it for any length of time.

 

[dianaiad]

Any of WHAT? Please be specific because you’re not making any sense.

“this” refers back to those things under discussion, Jay. All of them; prayers, proxy work, Masses, candle lightings, good wishes…all of it. We are the only people who actually think that the people for whom the work is done should have some say in the matter.

I thought of an analogy that might help you understand.

Think of purgatory as a prison sentence (with really hard labor ). The person has already been sentenced to say 20 years. They’ve made their choices in life and this is their sentence. Nothing they do can reduce their own sentence. But, at the end of 20 years the person will be admitted to a perfect paradise resort with no suffering etc. Now, our prayers are simply to the judge asking Him to reduce their sentence a little bit and send them to the resort sooner or to make their labor a little easier. The judge may say yes, the judge may say no. Our prayers do not change the judgment, just maybe reduce the sentence.

It seems like you are expecting us to ask the prisoner if they want their sentence reduced. ???

Exactly. I know that it doesn’t seem likely that someone would not, but…what if? As I have mentioned before, at least one someone deliberately said ‘no,’ in the full and complete knowlege of what he was giving up.

If they actually didn’t want their sentence reduced, the judge would already know this (He knows everything) and wouldn’t reduce it. Nothing we do or say would change that. The person would do the full 20 years.

Where is there anything coercive on anyone’s part?

The fact that you didn’t ask. You are making an assumption that doesn’t matter here. If you are going by the “God knows everything” bit, then He also knows that Mormons do proxy work, and He knows whether that proxy work would be effective or not…and critics of our doing it don’t need to worry about it.

The thing is, God may well know what the ‘prisoner’ would choose. That does NOT mean that the prisoner shouldn’t be given the chance TO choose. Perhaps only one prisoner in thirty million would say 'leave me here…" but they all should get the chance to SAY so; to actually make the decision that you believe God already knows they would make.

 

[dianaiad]

Why what?

God is unchanging. He already knows what is going to happen with/to everyone. I don’t understand your question.

But you pray to Him to ask Him to change it. Why do that?

 

[dianaiad]

That’s just silly. If you’re seriously asking about this, then post this in the philosophy section. This kind of question falls under the “Why does God (do anything)” category, i.e. Why did God create Adam & Eve if he knew they would fall, why do we have to pray at all if God already knows where we’re going to end up, why do we pray for sick people for their healing or conversion or whatever if God already knows what He is going to do etc etc.

Jay, we’re Mormons. this is the non-Catholic religions section, and this is a philosophy that is directly important to Mormon thought. This question belongs here.

 

[dianaiad]

A proxy baptism is more than a prayer!

No, it is DIFFERENT FROM a prayer…it is a proxy baptism that is offered to the person for whom it is done, for him to accept, reject or simply ignore (which is a rejection.) It is completely non-coercive, since it is entirely up to the person for whom it is done whether it has any effect at all.

A prayer, as a plea addressed to God in behalf of someone, does not take that someone’s wishes into account at all. Zip. Zero. Nada. You are asking God to do something to/for that person in spite of that person. You ask God to do something for that person that he cannot–and perhaps is not willing to–do for himself.

They are not even in the same area code, never mind ball park, Rebecca.

 

[Jay53]

This isn’t about whether you should or should not pray. It is simply and only about the fact that a: you DO pray and consider it to be a good thing to do so (and by the way, so do I for the same reasons) and b: you do NOT ask permission. You ask God to do something to them without asking them first. The assumption is, and it’s probably a very good assumption, that most of them would appreciate the help. However, there are a LOT of people who resent not being asked first, and who, if you DID ask them first, would say ‘no thank you,’ or “I appreciate the thought, but no thanks…” or “How DARE you, you sons and daughters of Belial, pray to your false God on my behalf!”

That is exactly the point!!! I don’t understand why you don’t get this. I really think you are being stubborn about this. There is only One True God. When someone dies - they will meet Him! There is no - “how DARE you pray to your false God on my behalf!” There is no sin, no resentment etc. The deceased person now KNOWS the One True God. I don’t understand WHAT you think we need permission for? "Hey, souls in Purgatory, is it OK if we pray to God for you? If in fact, their answer is “No, I don’t want you to pray for me” then God will already know this and will use our prayers to benefit someone else. I truly think you just do not understand the whole belief in Purgatory and you are looking at it through a Mormon lens which is distorted. Please actually read the links I posted earlier.

After all, isn’t that last something along the lines of the criticisms people have of LDS proxy work…and doesn’t the irony of that occur to you, since what WE do absolutely requires the permission and willing acceptance of those for whom we actually do the work?

In fact, if the irony doesn’t immediately occur to you, I’ll pound it home. You pray to God to help others, without inquiring whether those others would want, or appreciate, your prayers. You think it’s fine, because you have nothing but good in mind when you do this. Then y’all criticise US–not because we don’t get the permission of those for whom we do this (because we actually DO that!) but because we don’t get YOUR permission to do work for someone for whom you have no right to make decisions.

It’s actually rather deliciously ironic, when you think about it for any length of time.

You still have not shown where anything is coercive on anyone’s part.

Quite frankly, I don’t think Mormon proxy baptisms are coercive because they absolutely have no effect. My own issue with Mormon proxy baptisms, (if I even need to have one ) is the fact that Mormonism, a false religion, is being associated with those who know it to be false.

Here’s another scenario that maybe you can understand.

Let’s say that organizations such as the KKK or NAMBLA decide that everyone should be a member of their organization and they are going to do posthumous initiation ceremonies to that effect. The records will reflect that Diana ___ was initiated into the KKK on such and such date (posthumously of course), and Diana’s husband was initiated into NAMBLA on such and such a date. Now obviously everyone reading these records will realize that you and your husband were not actual members of these organizations on earth, but you and he may have accepted such membership after death and the initiation ceremonies have already been performed. Would this be acceptable to you - to have your name associated with these groups as “possible” members?

 

[Jay53]

“this” refers back to those things under discussion, Jay. All of them; prayers, proxy work, Masses, candle lightings, good wishes…all of it. We are the only people who actually think that the people for whom the work is done should have some say in the matter.

So, what would you think is acceptable?
Dear God, please have mercy on the soul of ______, if he/she actually desires your mercy?

Dear God, please heal ____ from their sickness, if they in fact actually want to get better.

Dear God, please give us world peace, only if everyone on earth wants this?

You also don’t seem to realize that all of our prayers are for the Glory of God and will be answered according to His Divine Will.

Exactly. I know that it doesn’t seem likely that someone would not, but…what if? As I have mentioned before, at least one someone deliberately said ‘no,’ in the full and complete knowlege of what he was giving up.

And the person who said NO is in hell - which is not where someone in Purgatory can go. Those in Purgatory are assured of going to Heaven, it’s just a matter of when.

The fact that you didn’t ask. You are making an assumption that doesn’t matter here. If you are going by the “God knows everything” bit, then He also knows that Mormons do proxy work, and He knows whether that proxy work would be effective or not…and critics of our doing it don’t need to worry about it.

Correct. I’m not worried about it.

The thing is, God may well know what the ‘prisoner’ would choose. That does NOT mean that the prisoner shouldn’t be given the chance TO choose. Perhaps only one prisoner in thirty million would say 'leave me here…" but they all should get the chance to SAY so; to actually make the decision that you believe God already knows they would make.

They most certainly CAN say no. As I have repeated numerous times already, God would know if they don’t want this and will use our prayers for someone else. Ultimately all of our prayers are for the Glory of God.

 

[Jay53]

But you pray to Him to ask Him to change it. Why do that?

Again, this shows your ignorance of Purgatory and what it entails. Purgatory is NOT a “fun” place. Although the souls in Purgatory know that they will eventually get to Heaven, they still have to be cleansed of all of their attachment to sin.

 

[dianaiad]

That is exactly the point!!! I don’t understand why you don’t get this. I really think you are being stubborn about this. There is only One True God. When someone dies - they will meet Him! There is no - “how DARE you pray to your false God on my behalf!” There is no sin, no resentment etc. The deceased person now KNOWS the One True God. I don’t understand WHAT you think we need permission for? "Hey, souls in Purgatory, is it OK if we pray to God for you? If in fact, their answer is “No, I don’t want you to pray for me” then God will already know this and will use our prayers to benefit someone else. I truly think you just do not understand the whole belief in Purgatory and you are looking at it through a Mormon lens which is distorted. Please actually read the links I posted earlier.

You still have not shown where anything is coercive on anyone’s part.

Quite frankly, I don’t think Mormon proxy baptisms are coercive because they absolutely have no effect. My own issue with Mormon proxy baptisms, (if I even need to have one ) is the fact that Mormonism, a false religion, is being associated with those who know it to be false.

Here’s another scenario that maybe you can understand.

Let’s say that organizations such as the KKK or NAMBLA decide that everyone should be a member of their organization and they are going to do posthumous initiation ceremonies to that effect. The records will reflect that Diana ___ was initiated into the KKK on such and such date (posthumously of course), and Diana’s husband was initiated into NAMBLA on such and such a date. Now obviously everyone reading these records will realize that you and your husband were not actual members of these organizations on earth, but you and he may have accepted such membership after death and the initiation ceremonies have already been performed. Would this be acceptable to you - to have your name associated with these groups as “possible” members?

So your entire argument is based upon: "it’s OK for me to ask God to do things to and for others because I’m right? "

As to the old saw about the KKK and NAMBLA…like I"ve never heard THAT one before…

Even if these organizations had the same attitude toward these initiations that you do about the efficacy of prayer for the dead, (that they are effective no matter what I want) I personally wouldn’t have a problem. You see, I don’t think that the KKK or NAMBLA could affect the state of my eternal life. In fact, I’d probably not know a thing about it.

In fact, I’m going to be really blunt here: anybody who looked at records like this to see that I was posthumously inducted into the KKK (which is funnier than you can possibly know…) and think that it says anything at all about who I am, or what I believed while living, is an idiot. I don’t worry about what idiots think.

Unless of course someone is imagining what I might say to the offer if I were aware of it. That could be entertaining.

 

[Jay53]

Jay, we’re Mormons. this is the non-Catholic religions section, and this is a philosophy that is directly important to Mormon thought. This question belongs here.

OK. Then I will leave you and the other Mormons to discuss it.

 

[Jay53]

So your entire argument is based upon: "it’s OK for me to ask God to do things to and for others because I’m right? "

No, God is right. You just don’t seem to understand that we are all subject to God’s Will. He is the one that receives the prayers and answers the prayers however He sees fit.

As to the old saw about the KKK and NAMBLA…like I"ve never heard THAT one before…

Even if these organizations had the same attitude toward these initiations that you do about the efficacy of prayer for the dead, (that they are effective no matter what I want)

That is NOT what I believe and I think I have explained my beliefs enough times for you to understand it.

I personally wouldn’t have a problem. You see, I don’t think that the KKK or NAMBLA could affect the state of my eternal life. In fact, I’d probably not know a thing about it.

In fact, I’m going to be really blunt here: anybody who looked at records like this to see that I was posthumously inducted into the KKK (which is funnier than you can possibly know…) and think that it says anything at all about who I am, or what I believed while living, is an idiot. I don’t worry about what idiots think.

Unless of course someone is imagining what I might say to the offer if I were aware of it. That could be entertaining.

And I don’t think Mormon baptisms have any effect on anything either.

And I am aware of the implications of you being initiated in the KKK - which was partly why I used that analogy. How do you think your kids, grandkids, great grandkids would feel about seeing your name associated with the KKK? Even knowing you and what you believed, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn’t be at least* a little* upset that your name has been associated with such a group and recorded as such. I would think that they would rather that such a ceremony had not been performed and recorded.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, it is DIFFERENT FROM a prayer…it is a proxy baptism that is offered to the person for whom it is done, for him to accept, reject or simply ignore (which is a rejection.) It is completely non-coercive, since it is entirely up to the person for whom it is done whether it has any effect at all.

A prayer, as a plea addressed to God in behalf of someone, does not take that someone’s wishes into account at all. Zip. Zero. Nada. You are asking God to do something to/for that person in spite of that person. You ask God to do something for that person that he cannot–and perhaps is not willing to–do for himself.

They are not even in the same area code, never mind ball park, Rebecca.

LDS sure have a strange view of prayer. We don’t make God or anyone else do anything. Free will is not infringed upon by prayer. It is a ludicrous idea to believe it is.

 

[dianaiad]

So, what would you think is acceptable?
Dear God, please have mercy on the soul of ______, if he/she actually desires your mercy?

Dear God, please heal ____ from their sickness, if they in fact actually want to get better.

Dear God, please give us world peace, only if everyone on earth wants this?

You also don’t seem to realize that all of our prayers are for the Glory of God and will be answered according to His Divine Will.

Jay, you are completely MISSING THE POINT. I am not saying that praying for the souls of the dead is wrong, or that praying for God to give us peace, or to heal the sick, is wrong. I do that all the time…under the same assumption you have, that the vast majority of those for whom I pray would appreciate those prayers if they knew about them. However, I seem to be the only one in this conversation who can even imagine that someone might not want me praying for them…for whatever reason.

Perhaps that’s because I’ve been TOLD that several times, I dunno…but I do make a habit of asking if I can pray for people before I do so, if I can.

The point is, it is irrelevent whether praying for others (dead or alive, sick or just determined to screw up their lives) is a good thing or a bad thing. The point is, you are asking for someone (or Someone) else to alter them in a way that they haven’t actively given you permission to ask for. That is the definition of ‘coercion.’ They may be ecstatically joyful because you did it; that is also irrelevent. They may be forever grateful to you…and that is ALSO irrelevent. You didn’t ask first, and THAT is the part that is relevent to this specific discussion.

…which, by the way, unless you have completely forgotten it, the criticism of LDS proxy work because Y"ALL think that we are forcing something on others that they don’t want forced on them. The point is, LDS proxy work is NOT forced on those for whom it is done. In fact, it is the epitome of 'asking first…" because without their willing and eager acceptance, it is not valid. Doesn’t work. Means nothing…it is utterly and completely up to them.

Part of your problem is your complete inability to wrap your mind around the idea that anybody would, or COULD, want to refuse a prayer/Mass/whatever to God on their behalf. There seems to be a disconnect there that I can’t get you past. I realize that you have a great deal of faith in your own beliefs, and that’s a good thing. However, you cannot judge what WE do by YOUR standards, can you? We don’t believe that what we do affects those for whom we do it unless they want it to, and unlike you, we are quite aware that some simply won’t want it to. Their choice.

You keep telling me that I don’t ‘get’ it…but I do. I understand that your position is “But…I’m RIGHT about this, and nobody WOULD refuse a prayer said to God on our behalf!” It’s something you simply can’t imagine…

but we can. And because we can, that’s how we offer what we do; as a choice.

And the person who said NO is in hell - which is not where someone in Purgatory can go. Those in Purgatory are assured of going to Heaven, it’s just a matter of when.

Correct. I’m not worried about it.

They most certainly CAN say no. As I have repeated numerous times already, God would know if they don’t want this and will use our prayers for someone else. Ultimately all of our prayers are for the Glory of God.

That’s a statement of your faith, but there’s no support for it other than your wishful thinking, Jay. You know that, right?