Non-denominational Christians

[ricmat]

In my heart it is the actual body and blood of Christ and to me that is all that matters. I can’t speak for the others in my church, but that is what I believe. There is no idolitry going on here and if you are going to keep saying there is, I’m going to have to say that the Catholic Church is commiting idolitry as well. Please don’t make me have to do that.

I have to disagree with Pryrity7 on this one.

They really believe that they have the true presence, so it is not idolatry to worship it. Similarly, say you go to a Catholic Church for Mass, and an imposter priest is “saying mass”. As a Catholic, you end up worshiping something that is not God (but you thought it was). Neither is that idolatry.

Now…the question about whether or not Awantz’s church actually HAS the real presence in the Eucharist, that’s a different discussion.

 

[Pryority7]

I see your point…maybe I went a bit too far with the idolatry part…
The facts are simple however…no matter what you think something is, it does not make it so…I must take a stand at least and say that Awantz is mistaken that what they have in their church is the Body and Blood of Christ. Jesus established the Catholic Church and it is THROUGH the Catholic Church that the Real Presence of the Euchrist is authentic. Any other communion done in protestant churches or nondenominatial churches are symbols…nothing more.
I know that in your heart you believe it’s the same presence the way it is in a Catholic Church, but with due respect,
…it’s simply not.
The Spirit of truth testifies on this through the Church Christ founded.

-P7

 

[awantz]

I see your point…maybe I went a bit too far with the idolatry part…
The facts are simple however…no matter what you think something is, it does not make it so…I must take a stand at least and say that Awantz is mistaken that what they have in their church is the Body and Blood of Christ. Jesus established the Catholic Church and it is THROUGH the Catholic Church that the Real Presence of the Euchrist is authentic. Any other communion done in protestant churches or nondenominatial churches are symbols…nothing more.
I know that in your heart you believe it’s the same presence the way it is in a Catholic Church, but with due respect,
…it’s simply not.
The Spirit of truth testifies on this through the Church Christ founded.

-P7

All believers are a part of Christ’s Church. Not just Catholics.

 

[isaac.madsen]

All believers are a part of Christ’s Church. Not just Catholics.

Amen.

 

[ricmat]

All believers are a part of Christ’s Church. Not just Catholics.

The way the Catholic Church looks at this (as my sometimes faulty memory recollects it) is that the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth, and other believers are imperfectly united with it.

Or something like that

 

[IanS]

All believers are a part of Christ’s Church. Not just Catholics.

So if all we have to do is believe to be a member of the invisible church Jesus Christ founded, is what we believe important, or is doctrine irrelevant?

 

[awantz]

So if all we have to do is believe to be a member of the invisible church Jesus Christ founded, is what we believe important, or is doctrine irrelevant?

A believer is one who has placed their complete faith and trust in Christ for salvation, realizing that they are unable to meet God’s standards of righteousness by their own efforts.

 

[jmcrae]

A believer is one who has placed their complete faith and trust in Christ for salvation,

If they really trust Jesus, why do they not want to become members of His Church? They trust Him to save their souls, but not to protect His own Church?

realizing that they are unable to meet God’s standards of righteousness by their own efforts.

Okay. So, how do they find out what God’s standards of righteousness are, and how are they helped to achieve them?

 

[ricmat]

A believer is one who has placed their complete faith and trust in Christ for salvation, realizing that they are unable to meet God’s standards of righteousness by their own efforts.

That’s a very nice and concise description

(I’m not arguing with you here)…actually, being a “member” of whatever really doesn’t mean anything anyway, IMHO. It’s what you do and how you act that matters. There are “members” of the Catholic church whose shoes I wouldn’t want to be in at the time of death. For them, being a member was pretty much meaningless.

Being a “member” can help (and usually does), but it isn’t the only thing. And being a believer, frankly, is more important than being a member. Again, IMHO.

LATE EDIT: I also agree with Jmcrae in that being a member of the Catholic Church is more likely to lead you to what exactly to do, and what exactly to believe to improve your chances for salvation. My point was that membership by itself doesn’t force that.

 

[Pryority7]

All believers are a part of Christ’s Church. Not just Catholics.

I didn’t say anything about who is a believer or not. I do not in any way doubt you have a relationship with Christ. I’m talking about the Eucharist…related yet can be different.

P7

 

[awantz]

If they really trust Jesus, why do they not want to become members of His Church? They trust Him to save their souls, but not to protect His own Church?

They are a part of His Church. His Church is the entire group of believers in Christ. Also called the body of Christ.

Okay. So, how do they find out what God’s standards of righteousness are, and how are they helped to achieve them?

Look in the Bible. There are a lot of verses in the Bible that will tell us what righteousness is. Genesis 15:6, Jeremiah 23:6, Phillipians 3:7-11, II Corinthians 5:21, II Timothy 4:7-8, Hebrews 12:11, James 1:19-20.
God helps us achieve righteousness.

 

[awantz]

I didn’t say anything about who is a believer or not. I do not in any way doubt you have a relationship with Christ. I’m talking about the Eucharist…related yet can be different.

P7

God has made His body and Blood available to all. Not just to Catholics.

 

[jack_hawkins]

All believers are a part of Christ’s Church. Not just Catholics.

Amen from me as well

 

[ricmat]

God has made His body and Blood available to all. Not just to Catholics.

There are some christians who do not believe that their “communion” is the literal body and blood of Christ. They see it as symbolic. So if they don’t think it’s real, then they really don’t have the real thing. You must believe it’s real for it to be real, as the first step.

In your case, you are not Catholic, but you do believe it’s real (in your own church). This brings up the question I asked earlier:

say you were to ask your pastor “Where did you get the power (or authority) to change the bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ?” what would he say?

A Catholic priest would say that there has been a direct link, via ordination, to himself all the way back to the apostles who attended the last supper. This gives their sacramental power of consecration validity.

But not everyone has that link.

 

[Pryority7]

God has made His body and Blood available to all. Not just to Catholics.

You’re right, God has made His Body and Blood available to all, but the question still remains…where can you ACTUALLY find it? In any church, or the Church where it was established?
Think about it…

P7

 

[awantz]

There are some christians who do not believe that their “communion” is the literal body and blood of Christ. They see it as symbolic. So if they don’t think it’s real, then they really don’t have the real thing. You must believe it’s real for it to be real, as the first step.

I said God made it available to all. That doesn’t mean that everyone will chose to believe partake of it.

In your case, you are not Catholic, but you do believe it’s real (in your own church). This brings up the question I asked earlier:

say you were to ask your pastor “Where did you get the power (or authority) to change the bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ?” what would he say?

I’ve already answered that question. Read my previous posts.

A Catholic priest would say that there has been a direct link, via ordination, to himself all the way back to the apostles who attended the last supper. This gives their sacramental power of consecration validity.

But not everyone has that link.

Yeah, well who gave it to the apostles? God and He still exsists today and He can still give the power/authority to people/pastors, including mine.

 

[Pryority7]

I said God made it available to all. That doesn’t mean that everyone will chose to believe partake of it.

I’ve already answered that question. Read my previous posts.

Yeah, well who gave it to the apostles? God and He still exsists today and He can still give the power/authority to people/pastors, including mine.

Uhhhhh…I don’t think so.
Please understand…it’s either one of two things…

Either a) no one in your church believes it’s the actual Body and Blood of Christ except you and/or a couple of others, or b) You’re a special congregation that actually WANTS to believe that you have the Body and Blood of Christ present in your church…but just like I stated earlier, believing something to be does not make it so…we don’t wish things into existence…they exist whether we believe in it or not…
-P7

 

[jmcrae]

Yeah, well who gave it to the apostles? God and He still exsists today and He can still give the power/authority to people/pastors, including mine.

Jesus did, in His earthly Incarnation.

The reason that Jesus established the Church was so that the Apostles could pass on the ability to perform the miracle of Transubstantiation to the next generation by the laying on of hands in the Sacrament of Holy Orders (ordination).

What this tells us is that it is those ordained persons who are in the direct line of succession from the Apostles who have this ability.

 

[awantz]

Uhhhhh…I don’t think so.
Please understand…it’s either one of two things…

Either a) no one in your church believes it’s the actual Body and Blood of Christ except you and/or a couple of others, or b) You’re a special congregation that actually WANTS to believe that you have the Body and Blood of Christ present in your church…but just like I stated earlier, believing something to be does not make it so…we don’t wish things into existence…they exist whether we believe in it or not…
-P7

It isn’t so, because we believe it to be so. It is so, because God said it is so and my pastor makes that known when we take communion.

 

[ricmat]

It isn’t so, because we believe it to be so. It is so, because God said it is so and my pastor makes that known when we take communion.

Awantz: you strike me as a very holy and dedicated person, in love with Christ, and trying to do the best for your family. I just wanted to let you know that I respect you and your positions. It is admirable that you take the time to investigate things on CAF.

That being said, I just have one more question (others will no doubt have a lot more)…

Does your pastor have any doubts that he is changing the bread and wine to the real body and blood of Christ? I wonder. It would be a good question to ask him privately.