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Syele
Guest
So you get to personally define the word now as “faction”?
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JoeyWarren
Guest
The Thesaurus says so!So you get to personally define the word now as “faction”?
Main Entry: church
Part of Speech: noun 2
Definition: congregation
Synonyms: affiliation, body, chapter, communion, connection, creed, cult, denomination, doctrine, faction, faith, gathering, order, persuasion, religion, schism, sect, society
Main Entry: cult
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: believers
Synonyms: band, body, church, clan, clique, creed, denomination, faction, faith, following, party, persuasion, religion, school, sect
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Syele
Guest
OK so you you all would have no problem with me saying the Catholic Church is a denomination then…
Really, all this whining about what non-denominational church members call themselves is getting old.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
St. Paul uses the noun “faction” to mean the same thing as “denomination”. Since the Church is not a faction it is not a dnomination. It is not a division or faction of anything.
CDL
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JoeyWarren
Guest
I personally do not have a problem with it. I am pretty okay with the idea that we were the very first denomination if it makes you feel better.
No what is getting old is the self proclaimed non-denominationals refusing to accept that they are nothing but a cult or sect or a faction. They all have gone off on their own, just like David Koresh group.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Wow, I am getting so tired of the double standard with some catholics. You all scream and cry if someone comes in and calls catholocism a cult but right here you call me part of a cult.
Why do I bother being PC and try to be understanding if I do not get the same respect?
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Contarini
Guest
Sure it is. It’s a division or faction of Christianity.
You make it impossible to have any discussion with non-Catholics, because you insist on defining every term in such a way as to make Catholicism correct by definition. So we can’t even communicate.
Edwin
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
PC talk is simply obsfucation. Stop it and you will be understood much better. Frankly all worship is a cult. So what.Wow, I am getting so tired of the double standard with some catholics. You all scream and cry if someone comes in and calls catholocism a cult but right here you call me part of a cult.
Why do I bother being PC and try to be understanding if I do not get the same respect?
Denominationalism or the oxymoron, non-denominationalism, is schismatic. That is the problem.
CDL
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
That is logical. We communicate because it is nice to communicate, but we have been set free by the truth. Catholicism is not a schism of any other religion. Protestantism and its various branches are indeed by definition schismatic. It is its lifeblood and mode of operation.
The only thing at issue is, “Is this schism justified?” I do not believe so or I would not have converted. You believe that your schism is somehow justified. Demonstrate the justification.
CDL
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Contarini
Guest
This is an example of what I mean. Schism is never justified. So you aren’t asking a real question. It’s like saying “prove that it was right to murder Saddam Hussein.” This begs the question at issue, which is whether Saddam’s execution really was murder. You can’t have a discussion on those terms.
Back to the point of the thread: non-denominational Protestants are not part of a “denomination” if a denomination is defined as an organization existing above the level of the local church. This is a meaningful distinction. They really are different from, say, the UMC, which has a very complex and powerful bureaucracy (as I’m sure you know!), or even from looser bodies such as the SBC.
Edwin
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
Setting aside for a moment the notion that schism is justified because you say it is, let us understand what exactly you believe a “non-denomination” is.
CDL
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Syele
Guest
Well that is pretty harsh. About on par with why I took a break from this place. Since when does announcing someone is “like a David Koresh group” convince anyone of anything???
I didn’t see any non-denominationals on here demanding you give up your Church authority. Yet you have no problem just up and saying such things. So much for speaking with love.
Let people name themselves whatever they like, what’s it to you anyways??
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
Reasonable communication and a mind that is clear demand some level of consistency in the definitions of the words they use. You call rational discourse “judgemental”. Your judgement is rather judgemental. Now where do we go?
CDL
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Syele
Guest
You’ve got to be kidding. He calls all non-denominational churches equal to David Koresh and you call ME judgmental?
I thought my post about the definition used by non-denominational churches was rational. Not my problem if people want to ignore the definition used by the group and pick their own.
Where can we go from people ignoring the facts name calling and and inflammatory remarks? I doubt we can get anywhere nice.
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Cat
Guest
I’ve read through this whole thread.
A few comments.
those Christians who are ready to cross the stepping stones and come home!
A few comments.
- Someone made critical comments about a non-denom church selling books, CDs, etc. The Catholic parish where I play piano has maintained a bookstore for years, and sells books, cards, etc. And I’ve visited other Catholic churches that have some kind of bookstore or sales rack. My home parish sells “The Word Among Us” in the narthex (actually, it’s free, but they ask for a donation of one dollar if you can afford it). Also, my parish allows the Boy Scouts to sell Christmas wreaths between Masses.
- I think that when it comes to non-denoms, you can’t be so picky about definitions. Why bother to prove that the term is an oxymoron? It probably IS an oxymoron. So? What does this accomplish for the Kingdom of God? It is merely an exercise in use of modern language. It doesn’t encourage ecumenicalism, something that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says is important. The CCC also asks that as much as possible, we maintain dialogue with Protestants. IMO, this kind of question has a “negative” implication about non-denoms. It makes it appear that they are trying to deceive. Not a good way to maintain dialogue.
- I think it’s vital that each non-denom church be evaluated individually. You simply cannot make any generalizations. Each church is different. Some are extremely anti-Catholic, while others are pro-Catholic and pro-Christian. My dear sponsor became a Catholic and her husband remains a Protestant and attends a non-denom church. She attends Sunday services with him, and was invited by the pastor to give a presentation to the congregation about her conversion to Catholicism.
- I don’t think that most non-denoms are born out of a desire to separate. I think in many cases, it’s a question of expediency and convenience. One of the men that was in my youth group has been a pastor in a Baptist denom for over 25 years. Last year, he and a group of several dozen decided to start their own church based on the Purpose Driven Principles. He probably could have gone through the organizational ladder in his denom and presented the PD principles to the General Council and eventually received permission to start teaching with this method in his denom. But it would have taken years (just like it takes years, decades, centuries in the Catholic Church to see a change!). My pal is 50 years old He wants to start NOW. I suppose it sounds self-centered, but to me, there’s nothing self-centered about giving up a secure, good-paying pastorate in an established denomination with a beautiful church building, and starting all over at age 50 in a school building with a few dozen friends. That’s the ultimate in un-selfish, if you ask me.
- The large non-denominational megachurch in our city is fantastic when it comes to charitable outreach and “almsgiving.” The Bible says that by their fruits we will know them. This church is definitely a “Christian” church. Interestingly, several of our RCIA students have come out of this church.
those Christians who are ready to cross the stepping stones and come home!
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
You made judgements that are silly and unfair. The fellow never called all non-denominational Church just “just like David Koresh”. You know it and I know it. Schism is schism why try to deny it? There is no name calling, why resort to such a judgemental charge? Non-denomational is an oxymoron and all Church that have split from the original are schismatic. Can that be justified? Yes or no?
CDL
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
Cat,
Live and let live to be sure but lets be clear. Non-denominational is an oxymoron. All groups that have split from the Church have split from the Church. I pray that they will come back home. Beyond that I have no opinion. These groups are insufficient in offering salvation to the world. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t have social value. Each must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. All who go to heaven will be Catholic. Why not start now?
CDL
Live and let live to be sure but lets be clear. Non-denominational is an oxymoron. All groups that have split from the Church have split from the Church. I pray that they will come back home. Beyond that I have no opinion. These groups are insufficient in offering salvation to the world. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t have social value. Each must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. All who go to heaven will be Catholic. Why not start now?
CDL
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Cat
Guest
I agree, GregoryPalamas, although I cite the Catechism which says that Protestants are separated brethren and by virtue of their baptism may share the hope of an eternity in heaven with Jesus. The CCC teaches that Christians who are baptized are in an “imperfect communion” with the Catholic Church, but nevertheless, in communion, and therefore, have the hope of heaven.
Please allow me to suggest that calling non-denoms and Protestant denoms “schismatic” and describing non-denoms as “oxymoronical” is NOT the way to woo these Christians into the Catholic Church. These are “fightin’ words,” and I believe that in most cases, they will only antagonize the non-Catholic Christian and drive him/her further away from the True Church.
The Catechism talks about maintaining dialogue and developing ecumenicalism. I realize that some Catholics consider this “liberal talk,” but it’s right there in the CCC.
When Paul approached the Mars Hill intellectuals, he didn’t begin by condemning their pagan religion. Instead, he found common ground.
Jesus used the same “soft” approach with the Samaritan woman. He didn’t begin by labelling her as “schismatic” against the Jews, but He began by asking her for a drink of water. Just the fact that He spoke to her was amazing to her! Then He continued the conversation, inviting her to share her views–a true dialogue.
Jesus tells us to be wise as serpents but gentle as doves.
I think that Pope John Paul II was a master at this “gentle dove” approach toward evangelization. He opened a lot of doors and led a lot of Protestants into the Catholic Church by his respectful tone and words and loving actions. (Isn’t it interesting that often, we call our Mother Mary a “gentle dove?” Pope John Paul II was consecrated to the Blessed Mother, so no wonder he developed her personality!)
I believe that we will have more success “wooing” in the non-denominational Christians if we demonstrate respect in our words and actions towards them. Labelling them as “oxymoron” with the implication that they are “deceiving everyone and especially themselves,” is not going to open any doors, but rather, will result in slammed doors.
Please analyze your strategy and decide whether it is truly bringing Protestants home to the Catholic Church. I do admit that there are some people who actually need a “hellfire and brimstone” approach. Jonathan Edwards led thousands of people to repentance and Christianity with his graphic message, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” The tract is still available to day and still bringing souls into the kingdom.
Perhaps your calling is to be a Catholic “Jonathan Edwards.” If so, God bless you as you use the gift He has given you.
But I beg you to please make sure that this really is your calling before using words that hurt rather than heal. If you succeed in driving Protestants away, it makes it much harder for the rest of us to try to persuade them to give Catholicism a serious look.
Please allow me to suggest that calling non-denoms and Protestant denoms “schismatic” and describing non-denoms as “oxymoronical” is NOT the way to woo these Christians into the Catholic Church. These are “fightin’ words,” and I believe that in most cases, they will only antagonize the non-Catholic Christian and drive him/her further away from the True Church.
The Catechism talks about maintaining dialogue and developing ecumenicalism. I realize that some Catholics consider this “liberal talk,” but it’s right there in the CCC.
When Paul approached the Mars Hill intellectuals, he didn’t begin by condemning their pagan religion. Instead, he found common ground.
Jesus used the same “soft” approach with the Samaritan woman. He didn’t begin by labelling her as “schismatic” against the Jews, but He began by asking her for a drink of water. Just the fact that He spoke to her was amazing to her! Then He continued the conversation, inviting her to share her views–a true dialogue.
Jesus tells us to be wise as serpents but gentle as doves.
I think that Pope John Paul II was a master at this “gentle dove” approach toward evangelization. He opened a lot of doors and led a lot of Protestants into the Catholic Church by his respectful tone and words and loving actions. (Isn’t it interesting that often, we call our Mother Mary a “gentle dove?” Pope John Paul II was consecrated to the Blessed Mother, so no wonder he developed her personality!)
I believe that we will have more success “wooing” in the non-denominational Christians if we demonstrate respect in our words and actions towards them. Labelling them as “oxymoron” with the implication that they are “deceiving everyone and especially themselves,” is not going to open any doors, but rather, will result in slammed doors.
Please analyze your strategy and decide whether it is truly bringing Protestants home to the Catholic Church. I do admit that there are some people who actually need a “hellfire and brimstone” approach. Jonathan Edwards led thousands of people to repentance and Christianity with his graphic message, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” The tract is still available to day and still bringing souls into the kingdom.
Perhaps your calling is to be a Catholic “Jonathan Edwards.” If so, God bless you as you use the gift He has given you.
But I beg you to please make sure that this really is your calling before using words that hurt rather than heal. If you succeed in driving Protestants away, it makes it much harder for the rest of us to try to persuade them to give Catholicism a serious look.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
I beg to differ… Quote:
Pretty much after saying we were a cult he then compared us to the likes of David Koresh. It is there in black and white…
And while I am at it can we stop using the word ‘oxymoron’ sometimes I think that people are repeating it over and over because they want to use the backdoor aproach to calling us morons. I know what it means but this, in writing, is how it looks.
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