Non-fallible teachings: any examples?

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1neophyte said:
None of this would matter a hill of beans to you if you didn’t have a deep desire for truth and justice in the Church. All of your efforts here are just nailing jello to the wall. Your talents are needed in the Church in the real world. “In love’s service, only wounded soldiers can serve.” Your wounds can be used to serve and help so many, but you’re raging against nothing instead.
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I do have a desire for truth and justice. But I’ve fought enough wars, I’m a weary soldier, I don’t have much heart to put on anyone’s armour, to tell you the truth. I’d like a relatively good life, nothing extravagant, where I could loosen up, learn that life can be good and okay, and serve God and others in a small way in a way he sees fit (probably service to the poor, the handicapped, Jean Vanier’s kind of way).
 
fladreamer said:
I said earlier i kind of like you. I’m sure you’re not coming from a bad place, how specifically am I disingenuous? I commented on the thread being dead, the thought of Jesus announcing the sacrament of the eucharist came to mind, because it seemed my last post had had a similar effect. Then I thought of just what Jesus said, namely: ‘‘If you don’t eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, you have no life in you’’. Jesus never meant for things to be construed in a mundane way, so it follows that ‘‘no life in you’’ is more than the natural life, it is the supernatural life. If you have no supernatural life in you, you can’t have eternal life with God in heaven, period. If the only way to have supernatural life is by receiving the eucharist in a state of grace, then one has no choice but to conclude that the Catholic Church is not the way par excellence to salvation but actually the only way. Which is what Salus extra ecclesiam non est unequivocally states.

I’ve not lied about my past, some of the things that crushed me, my strained relationship with God, how i’ve always felt like he treated me like dirt, not like a loving father, much less like an omnipotent being who, I’m told, says he loves me with an eternal love. i’ve waged a mental war for decades, felt pretty sure God was on my side, then a realization came crashing down that the hoped-for breakthrough wasn’t coming, ever. For the sake of total openeness, I often pray for God to give me a terminal illness so I can be done with this burden of a life and die at peace and in a state of grace. I never in 40 some years of life ever thanked God once for giving me life, not once. A lost soul, shy, socially anxious, terrorized to be humiliated, when people kind of like me, I always think they wouldn’t if they knew me for real, burden of shame, inadequacy, always had a visceral dread of the future, certain periods of disarray and just wanting to not be, not even exist in heaven, just stop to exist. I don’t understand how God let every of those things slowly but surely destroy me. Some people call these things ‘‘strongholds’’, if you could get an xray of my heart, you wouldn’t believe how many of these strongholds are there or how deep they run. Life feels strange because it’s almost as I feel I shouldn’t have existed, I’m not supposed to be here, yet I am. My mom once confided in me that she was under such stress when she was pregnant with me that she wished she would miscarry. Some people (charismatic movement etc.) seemed to think that can be registered by the foetus or that it’s like a curse spoken on a new life.
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No, I know you’re telling the truth about your past. When I say you’re being disingenuous, I’m referring to your supposedly hopeless view of God as a tyrant that is out to get you and fears any possibility of you being happy. I know that you might feel that way, but I can also sense that you know that feeling isn’t true. You are most certainly not a lost soul. Shy, socially anxious? I obviously don’t know you, so I’ll have to take your word for it, but everything you post here, even though it’s mostly negative, is just dripping with a fierce intelligence and wisdom, as well as a very tangible sense of compassion and empathy.

When Jesus said what He said about the Eucharist being required for one to have life, He wasn’t saying it like, “You better do this or you’re going to burn.” It was an invitation, a gift. Like a doctor advising a patient that surgery is required. The doctor isn’t gleefully hoping the patient will refuse the surgery and die a painful death. The truth is, you are living proof that Jesus was right. You’ve gone a couple of decades without receiving the Eucharist, and even though you long for it, you’re clearly living without that “life” within you. And you could go to confession tomorrow and receive the Eucharist, and the life within you would start all over. It wouldn’t cost you a cent. THAT is who Jesus is, and THAT is what the Church is, no matter who tries to find some way to make it more complicated and no matter what impressive Latin phrases they may use. When I said you were being disingenuous, I meant that you are letting your clearly superior intellect work against you instead of for you. You’re obviously not coming from a bad place either, despite all of the horrible things you’ve said about God and the Church. And all of those things don’t even faze Him. He still loves you anyway. He sees every one of those strongholds, and He is bigger than each and every one of them. Just as He is bigger than every stronghold Jesus endured on the Cross. Instead of resenting Him for not taking them away, have you ever tried simply surrendering them to Him and letting Him do what He wills with them?
 
1neophyte said:
No, I know you’re telling the truth about your past. When I say you’re being disingenuous, I’m referring to your supposedly hopeless view of God as a tyrant that is out to get you and fears any possibility of you being happy. I know that you might feel that way, but I can also sense that you know that feeling isn’t true. You are most certainly not a lost soul.
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‘‘Lost soul’’ as a way to describe myself, my state of mind. Also, I am extremely two-minded. I probably have some kind of borderline personality disorder.
1neophyte;[14179696:
Shy, socially anxious? I obviously don’t know you, so I’ll have to take your word for it, but everything you post here, even though it’s mostly negative, is just dripping with a fierce intelligence and wisdom, as well as a very tangible sense of compassion and empathy.
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Life is a totally different thing, though. There is a tension that never leaves me when I’m around people. It’s as if I was hard-wired NOT to be around others. If people around me had been more accepting of me, I probably wouldn’t be that much of a mess. All of it has taken a huge toll emotionally and in my relationship with and view of God. Even if I read that God wants to prosper me, that he knows the number of hair on my head, the past speaks loudly.
1neophyte;[14179696:
SWhen Jesus said what He said about the Eucharist being required for one to have life, He wasn’t saying it like, “You better do this or you’re going to burn.” It was an invitation, a gift. Like a doctor advising a patient that surgery is required. The doctor isn’t gleefully hoping the patient will refuse the surgery and die a painful death. The truth is, you are living proof that Jesus was right. You’ve gone a couple of decades without receiving the Eucharist, and even though you long for it, you’re clearly living without that “life” within you. And you could go to confession tomorrow and receive the Eucharist, and the life within you would start all over. It wouldn’t cost you a cent. THAT is who Jesus is, and THAT is what the Church is, no matter who tries to find some way to make it more complicated and no matter what impressive Latin phrases they may use. When I said you were being disingenuous, I meant that you are letting your clearly superior intellect work against you instead of for you.
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Maybe I wasn’t clear, but I didn’t see Jesus as threatening anyone, i understood he was just stating a fact. Yeah I’ve thought about that, that I’m one confession away from being in a state of grace. I must be honest: I am supremely afraid of God. I’m afraid he may put me through too much for me to bear, I don’t want to revisit some of the dark places, i’d like to soar through the last years of my life. i read a book by Beth Moore (Get out of that Pit) , where she said that some of us, because of our past and our personality, will never be able to fully trust God aslong as our feet are walking on clay. I second that thought.
1neophyte said:
He sees every one of those strongholds, and He is bigger than each and every one of them. Just as He is bigger than every stronghold Jesus endured on the Cross. Instead of resenting Him for not taking them away, have you ever tried simply surrendering them to Him and letting Him do what He wills with them?
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Back to the ‘‘walking on clay’’ comment. I still can’t understand why things had to be so tough. Making sense of suffering, though it may help, is not what I’m after. i just don’t want my whole walk to have been through a vale of tears. Let’s not mince words, God is frightening. The story of Job shows just how much a man of God can be put to the test and crushed. My anxious mind often tells me when things are good: what if this or that happens, what if God’s patience with you has come to an end, what if he wants to chastize you, discipline you? Problem is there are loads of stuff in my life that could go south very quickly. We’'ll see.
 
fladreamer said:
Then I thought of just what Jesus said, namely: ‘‘If you don’t eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, you have no life in you’’.
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Would this mean that Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists cannot have any life in them? Even Protestants, since they do not have a valid Eucharist?
 
fladreamer said:
‘‘Therefore Pius XII had condemned an exclusive interpretation of the axiom “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus” already in 1949.’’ First,I think it’s a major problem that the church is incomprehensible to, I would estimate, 90% or more of the laity. The church has grown to monstrous proportions and complexity. Second, to the best of your knowledge, what was the original intended meaning behind the phrase ‘‘extra ecclesiam nulla salus’’. What I suspect is that the original meaning was that unless you’re a baptised Catholic who frequents the sacraments and who dies in a stat of grace you will NOT be saved. The way, the truth and the light, the only way to the Father is thru Christ, thru his bride, the Catholic Church. Third:how many Catholics down the centuries suspect that the expression could have meant anything else but what it specifically stated? Fourth: was it mortal-sin binding for Catholics to say and believe that salvation was not a possibility outside the Catholic Church? Fifth: I suspect that what occurred in 1949 was an out-of-season phenomenon (2 Timothy 4:2): yielding to a spirit of oecumenism and of relativism (i.e. there can’t possibly be but one way of salvation). Back-pedaling has devastating consequences for the church’s credibility, inter alia.
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“Be not afraid to be justified even to death” Sirach 18:22

The teaching has always been that salvation is exclusive of those that die without justification, those are excluded that die without the friendship of God, later expressed as without the state of sanctifying grace.

The thief on the cross and those that were just under the old covenant could be saved, and the Church continues to teach that baptism includes by water, desire, or blood, so there must be the final state of justification to be saved. Anyone that is finally saved is a member of the Communion of Saints so is a member of the Church.
 
Tomdstone said:
Would this mean that Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists cannot have any life in them? Even Protestants, since they do not have a valid Eucharist?
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I would be more concerned with the question, “Do I have life in me?”
 
Tomdstone said:
Would this mean that Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists cannot have any life in them? Even Protestants, since they do not have a valid Eucharist?
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Unless anyone wants to twist Jesus’ words, his words are clear, straightforward, they don’t lend themselves to interpretation: body and blood of Christ=the eucharist=life in me. The eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, in other Churches, communion is a mere memorial, nothing more. So the answer to your question is yes.
 
Vico said:
“Be not afraid to be justified even to death” Sirach 18:22

The teaching has always been that salvation is exclusive of those that die without justification, those are excluded that die without the friendship of God, later expressed as without the state of sanctifying grace.

The thief on the cross and those that were just under the old covenant could be saved, and the Church continues to teach that baptism includes by water, desire, or blood, so there must be the final state of justification to be saved. Anyone that is finally saved is a member of the Communion of Saints so is a member of the Church.
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John 6:53 Is there one thing, just one in the whole Bible that we can take at face value? What did Jesus mean by that? (John 6:53) Was the initial idea that Jesus had was that several councils, countless theologians would be needed to interpret each and every word he ever uttered?
 
fladreamer said:
John 6:53 Is there one thing, just one in the whole Bible that we can take at face value? What did Jesus mean by that? (John 6:53) Was the initial idea that Jesus had was that several councils, countless theologians would be needed to interpret each and every word he ever uttered?
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Jesus said they were hard to teach, so he spoke in parables, so yes, it takes the Church Magisterium.

It must be understood as a whole that for salvation there are:
  • Faith (cf. Rom 1:16), * Baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Mt 28:19; Acts 2:40-41; 16:30-33) * Eucharist (cf. Jn 6:53)
 
fladreamer said:
Unless anyone wants to twist Jesus’ words, his words are clear, straightforward, they don’t lend themselves to interpretation: body and blood of Christ=the eucharist=life in me. The eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, in other Churches, communion is a mere memorial, nothing more. So the answer to your question is yes.
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IMHO, that is terrible if Roman Catholics teach that Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Protestants, Muslims, Sikhs, Bahaists don’t have any life in them. Bahaists are very peaceful people and don’t deserve such a sentence.
 
Rau said:
I’ve not heard that teaching Tom.

Vico - have you?
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I was responding to the following post:
fladreamer said:
Unless anyone wants to twist Jesus’ words, his words are clear, straightforward, they don’t lend themselves to interpretation: body and blood of Christ=the eucharist=life in me. The eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, in other Churches, communion is a mere memorial, nothing more. So the answer to your question is yes.
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How do you interpret John 6:53:
Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
 
Rau said:
I’ve not heard that teaching Tom.

Vico - have you?
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Catechism of the Catholic Church

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337​
 
Vico said:
Catechism of the Catholic Church

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337​
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How do you interpret John 6:53:
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
What do these words mean except what they say?
 
Tomdstone said:
How do you interpret John 6:53:
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
What do these words mean except what they say?
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If we are going to interpret this passage, the first step is not acknowledge this as one passage in the bible, and that it must be read in the context of the whole.
The bible is a collection of books, not a book, or a passage.

Quotes taken in isolation is literalist fundamentalism.

So if we don’t have that common ground, we will go round beating a passage to death.
(happens a lot)

So, how do you read the bible?
 
goout said:
If we are going to interpret this passage, the first step is not acknowledge this as one passage in the bible, and that it must be read in the context of the whole.
The bible is a collection of books, not a book, or a passage.

Quotes taken in isolation is literalist fundamentalism.

So if we don’t have that common ground, we will go round beating a passage to death.
(happens a lot)

So, how do you read the bible?
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Nice deflection! 😃
 
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