Non-Negotiable Issues

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trogiah:
I did not intend to imply such a thing so let me clarify.

As voters in our current system of government we are given two realistic options. Either a Democratic candidate will win or a Republican candidate will win. In my opinion neither one is ideal but God never promised us ideal candidates. There are many issues that matter with regard to what provides hope. I do contend that overall the Democratic party, in spite of its plank that supports the continued legalization of abortion, provides the best chance for long term hope. I do acknowledge that the matter is debatable among serious people.
Yes. This is called sacrificing good to the Moloch of the future. This is of course unknown. What is known is that someone objectively is supporting an intrinsic evil. A person from 1862 might have just as well said, well in spite of the fact that the Confedrates support chattel slavery, I think they provide the best chance for long term hope.
I consider myself a serious mind on this matter and so I think you have at least one incorrect statement there. Please consider this with regard to the national debt.

When you or I borrow money, we have an obligation to pay it. That obligation extends to whatever we may possess when we die. If I still owe money on my house when I die, the bank gets something from the sale of the house before my children do. But that is where it ends.

If what I own is not enough to cover what I owe, my children do not have to pay for my debts from their own paychecks.

That is not true with regard to the national debt.
Future generations will not be able to shrug off the burden placed on them by earlier generations without making substantial sacrifices of some kind.

And the federal government is not simply allowing this, it is causing this.
Much ado about nothing because this in no way establishes that national debt in and of itself is evil. It is completely negotiable unlike the intrinsic evil of abortion which is objectively killing innocent members of the future.
Here is a site that defends national debt and specifically answers the burden-on-children rhetoric. web2.airmail.net/scsr/. Of course one can argue with it and that’s the point–it’s arguable unlike abortion.

Scott
 
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trogiah:
For the record, I do stand in opposition to the choice of abortion. It is the choice of ignorance and/or desperation. However I am no more opposed to legal abortions than I am to illegal ones. So making abortions illegal is not my only concern in that regard.
But you are not in total opposition to it.
You are willing to allow abortion if you believe that will supply people with hope.
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trogiah:
But the problem is, that candidate will make many decisions, some of which may result in widespread loss of hope.
You seem to tie the idea of hope and hopelessness in to the abortion debate. Do you believe hopelessness is the cause of abortion?
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trogiah:
I would suggest that current trends indicate otherwise. Abortion rates are decreasing in spite of the fact that abortion remains legal.
But let’s not forget the ongoing legislation state by state that restricts abortion to a greater and greater degree.
Laws that stay in place because the pro-life federal judges keep them there.
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trogiah:
Please note the other side of that coin. I choose the national debt as a priority when voting for national candidates over the issue of the legalization of abortion because the national candidates can do much more about the national debt than they can about abortion.
But they can appoint judges. And without these judges in place, laws restricting abortion could be overturned.
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trogiah:
Presidents and legislators do not directly cause abortions by keeping them legal.
But keeping them legal does not stop them either.
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trogiah:
They do directly cause great problems for future generations by borrowing enormous amounts of money that they will never pay back.
This has been addressed. The certainty that this debt would be a problem can be debated, there is evidence that it would not cause a problem.
But we do know that abortion is an ongoing problem that puts the future generations at risk.
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trogiah:
I disagree with the assumption that laws outlawing abortions (by themselves) will bring hope to any country. There are countries where abortion is outlawed but the people, especially women, still struggle to find hope.
You are welcome to disagree, but you are also making assumptions concerning what will and will not bring ‘hope’ to any given generation.
I am not as concerned with ‘hope’ for the next generation as I am for the generation itself.
 
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1ke:
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It is not equally legitimate to hold the position that aborton should be legal and the position that abortion should not be legal. There is only one position that a Catholic can hold.**

First, I want to say that it is good for good Catholics to discuss the social teachings of the Church.

I think this is an especially needful dialog.

Regards to above quoted information and similar simplified views regarding the social teachings of the church, I would say that on specific difficult issues regards to the “implementation” of Catholic morality within our or any specific time frame, social framework or governmental framework, that we can reasonably disagree.

We have certain moral agreements in this tread, it seems to me.

Terminating the life of an unborn child is primarily wrong.
We have an obligation to help the poor
We have an obligation to be fiscally responsible
Choosing to end the life of another or ourselves in any circumstances is fraut with moral consequences

I think there can be many others and they can be stated differently.

A couple points I feel I might make here.

Moral choices even within the framework of any particular person in a particular time or circumstance can sometimes be difficult to arrive at
The difficulty of extending the moral teachings of the church for the individual to encompass a specific society can be more difficult
Something being illegal does not make something immoral nor does making something illegal extend the morality of what is illegal

Two such instances of these difficulties arise in regards to abortion and caring for the poor.

If I were to make a choice to perform or aid in the performance of an abortion in a legal environment as we have today, I would not do so.

If a man came to me who had assisted in an abortion or a women who had an abortion and indicated to me that they have no remorse, that the rights to her freedom were inviolate, I would not easily forgive.

If they came to me and the circumstances of the decision were difficult, and there was remorse and sorrow, then I would feel obligated to forgive.

Lets look at this from another perspective - The history of some abortions in this country when it was illegal is not a pretty one, either.

The rich or even moderately well to do, who had abilities and resources could quite easily obtain abortions regardless of the law. They could do these cleanly and medically safely. Often the reasons for such abortions were even more petty than they are today. Something like social acceptance, or todays convenience.

While at the same time a poor child in a disfranchised family, lacking parental support, barely being able to feed herself, could find herself putting a coat hangar up her in a back alley, and bleeding to death.

If abortions become illegal what are we to do about things like “that”?

I have similar misgivings on the abdication of helping the poor from government to unnamed charities. Lets review the history of these so-called charities in helping the poor, or/and review the social responsibilities by individuals, not legally obligated to help the poor and what they really end up doing.

The beginning of this thread was a question concerning the moral responsibility for who was voted for as President of the United States. This vote takes place once every four years. Is one of millions and takes a few minutes.

We need to evaluate what we are doing daily in regards to these social issues. Certainly, not all of us are in public service, but we could ask ourselves what time we are giving to charity? Are our prayers for the poor, the unborn, the theifs on the crosses beside us heartfelt, sincere and many?

And, what is happening on forums, blogs, books, discussions, chats, etc. around the world. We, as lay people, are seeking to discover the right in this world. We are exposing our thoughts, our hearts, our lives and our minds to the world as witnesses seeking Christ and seeking the completion of the promise of the parousia in the world and everlasting life for ALL souls in the world.
 
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