Northern Ireland clashes continue

[Matt25]

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4234492.stm

**Youths have blocked a road in east Belfast, following a night of violent clashes sparked by the rerouting of an Orange Order parade…**The Northern Ireland police chief earlier said the Protestant Orange Order bore “substantial responsibility” for Saturday’s outbreak of violence… “The trouble has been as intense as anything seen in Northern Ireland since the late 1990s,” BBC correspondent Denis Murray saidIn a statement, the Orange Order said it would not be speaking to the media until it had evaluated what had happened…BBC Northern Ireland correspondent Kevin Connolly said security forces were the target of a sustained attack of “extraordinary ferocity”…

DUP leader Ian Paisley earlier blamed the Parades Commission for not reviewing the route that barred it from a nationalist area…The parade was re-routed to avoid the mainly nationalist Springfield Road area.

.

NB “Nationalist” means Catholic

 

[juancross]

Theres been quite a debate going on about this, this quote comes from someone who lives amongst it all,
To them: they are the loyal protectors of an outpost of the empire and have been cheated and betrayed by politicians, police and government who have appeased the mass-murdering republican movement.

However, it is fairly obvious that the mass-murdering loyalist movement now contains a decreasing - but still sizable - movement of thugs and their gullible, unread followers who lacked the intelligence and finesse of their mass-murdering republican colleagues to stratgise and spin their way into cushy government/political jobs.

Charging around their wee enclaves like a caged rhino with a sore backside, they can make plenty of noise, bangs and smoke but are a laughing stock elsewhere among those who chose the radical route of actually working for a living.

They are yesterday’s men indeed. Unfortunately I haven’t a clue about what happens to them and their movement now: I’ll leave that to broadsheet journalists writing ‘which way now for loyalism’ pieces which I can never seem to read all the way through.

And as for loyalists being motivated only by drug-dealing, protection and general gangsterism: this has applied to every armed organisation in NI for many years and is an imporant factor in understanding NI (in as much as that is possible).

 

[Fitz]

Clashes often start during these parades from what I remember reading. Have they every considered banning these parades? Just wondering.

 

[walstan]

Fitz:

Clashes often start during these parades from what I remember reading. Have they every considered banning these parades? Just wondering.

Yep,… but it’s a bit like trying to stop Katrina coming ashore over NO.

These parades are lead by small minded men with little bowler hats, orange sashes and rolled umbrellas who, not only can’t think outside the box, they don’t even have the intelligence to recognise the box their in!!!

 

[juancross]

walstan:

Yep,… but it’s a bit like trying to stop Katrina coming ashore over NO.

These parades are lead by small minded men with little bowler hats, orange sashes and rolled umbrellas who, not only can’t think outside the box, they don’t even have the intelligence to recognise the box their in!!!

A round-up of the weekend’s fun and games in NI:

1,000 police deployed
1,000 soldiers deployed
50 police injured
Petrol bombs thrown
Blast bombs thrown
Pipe bombs thrown
Shots fired at police
Seven firearms recovered
Up to 500 plastic bullets fired
Bomb factory found
Water cannon deployed
Cars and buses hijacked
One man shot by Army
Man critical after bomb blast

And the Orange Order’s only comment at the weekend was to condemn Hugh Orde (PSNI) for saying that they had to take some responsibility for the trouble

 

[walstan]

juancross:

A round-up of the weekend’s fun and games in NI:

1,000 police deployed
1,000 soldiers deployed
50 police injured
Petrol bombs thrown
Blast bombs thrown
Pipe bombs thrown
Shots fired at police
Seven firearms recovered
Up to 500 plastic bullets fired
Bomb factory found
Water cannon deployed
Cars and buses hijacked
One man shot by Army
Man critical after bomb blast

And the Orange Order’s only comment at the weekend was to condemn Hugh Orde (PSNI) for saying that they had to take some responsibility for the trouble

As I said, little men with smaller brains.

p.s. Why do the Oranger Order wear Bowler Hats?

A. It stops their feather brains getting blown away in the wind! (Boom Boom.)

 

[Matt25]

Fitz:

Clashes often start during these parades from what I remember reading. Have they every considered banning these parades? Just wondering.

In this instance the rioting began because the Orange Order was barred from marching through a Catholic area. The Order was profiled by the BBC at news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3853277.stm

It regards itself as defending civil and religious liberties of Protestants and seeks to uphold the rule and ascendancy of a Protestant monarch in the United Kingdom.The only membership criteria is that an applicant is Protestant…

The Orange Order has never been simply a religious organisation. When the Home Rule movement emerged in the 19th century, the Orange Order steadily moved towards the unionist position.The organisation opposed Home Rule and partition but concluded that the newly created Northern Ireland would be the defender of its cultural, civil and religious rights…

In 2000, one senior Orange figure said that the order was losing moderate members because it was increasingly dominated by politics, “ignorance and malevolence”. Images of protesters blocking traffic while brandishing Orange regalia with loyalist paramilitary figures in the background were causing a drift away from the order, he said.

 

[juancross]

Matt25:

In this instance the rioting began because the Orange Order was barred from marching through a Catholic area. The Order was profiled by the BBC at news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3853277.stm

It regards itself as defending civil and religious liberties of Protestants and seeks to uphold the rule and ascendancy of a Protestant monarch in the United Kingdom.The only membership criteria is that an applicant is Protestant…

The Orange Order has never been simply a religious organisation. When the Home Rule movement emerged in the 19th century, the Orange Order steadily moved towards the unionist position.The organisation opposed Home Rule and partition but concluded that the newly created Northern Ireland would be the defender of its cultural, civil and religious rights…

In 2000, one senior Orange figure said that the order was losing moderate members because it was increasingly dominated by politics, “ignorance and malevolence”. Images of protesters blocking traffic while brandishing Orange regalia with loyalist paramilitary figures in the background were causing a drift away from the order, he said.

In theory: aye

In reality: nah!

It seems to be more a case of loyalist paras flexing their muscles as they feel they’ve been hard done by recently.

You see, in the eyes of loyalism:

It’s OK to have a Parades Commission as long as all the decisions go loyalist’s way
It’s OK to have a police force as long as the police leave the loyalists alone
It’s Ok to have a democractic process as long as unionists have the upper hand

When any of these things happen you get an epic spitting out of the dummy scenario as seen at the weekend.

 

[Fitz]

So if having the parade causes fights and outbreaks, and even banning the parade causes the same- I guess the people just want to fight. Liberal nonsense. They all belong in jail for terrorist activity.

 

[Matt25]

Fitz:

So if having the parade causes fights and outbreaks, and even banning the parade causes the same- I guess the people just want to fight. Liberal nonsense. They all belong in jail for terrorist activity.

How do you catch them? Besides when the British started jailing Catholics 30 or so years ago recruitment to the IRA soared. The Protestants would likely respond in the same way. Repression is rarely if ever a succesful policy. Its immoral as well of course.

 

[Fitz]

Matt25:

How do you catch them? Besides when the British started jailing Catholics 30 or so years ago recruitment to the IRA soared. The Protestants would likely respond in the same way. Repression is rarely if ever a succesful policy. Its immoral as well of course.

Catch them in the act. Turn the other cheek so that peace will break out? I don’t think so.

 

[Matt25]

Fitz:

Catch them in the act. Turn the other cheek so that peace will break out? I don’t think so.

I was thinking about the facts that a) it was dark and b) they have guns and bombs. You might find it easy to arrest them but the PSNI might find it more tricky.

 

[MikeWM]

Fitz:

So if having the parade causes fights and outbreaks, and even banning the parade causes the same- I guess the people just want to fight. Liberal nonsense. They all belong in jail for terrorist activity.

Liberal nonsense? The so-called-Loyalists are the right-wing parties in Northern Ireland. The UK Conservative Party’s full name is ‘The Conservative and Unionist Party’. The Ulster Unionists have propped up Conservative governments in the past. (admittedly less so the ‘Democratic’ Unionists, led by everyone’s favourite Protestant Ian Paisley

Mike

 

[Fitz]

Mike I know that liberal (politically speaking) does not mean the same here in the US as in UK. I was just calling the nonsense of the parade, liberal nonsense in a more general sense. It was a poor choice of words.

I have thought about the trouble in Northern Ireland for many years and I never will understand how people can continue to hate and fight for decade after decade. I know the origins and I have read many books, but it comes down to hate and a break down in human nature. How is it ever OK to harm another human being?

It is sad and we see it the world over.

 

[MikeWM]

Fitz:

Mike I know that liberal (politically speaking) does not mean the same here in the US as in UK. I was just calling the nonsense of the parade, liberal nonsense in a more general sense. It was a poor choice of words.

That’s ok, no problem

I have thought about the trouble in Northern Ireland for many years and I never will understand how people can continue to hate and fight for decade after decade.

No, this I don’t understand. Why people want to celebrate the ‘great victory’ of King Billy back in 1688 - 1688! - especially when it is known that it rubs other people up the wrong way - well, that’s beyond me too.

I know the origins and I have read many books, but it comes down to hate and a break down in human nature. How is it ever OK to harm another human being?

It isn’t - and how dressing up in orange and carrying around banners while banging large drums is supposed to show how British these people are has always really confused me. The rest of us British don’t do this

Mike

 

[Fitz]

MikeWM:

No, this I don’t understand. Why people want to celebrate the ‘great victory’ of King Billy back in 1688 - 1688! - especially when it is known that it rubs other people up the wrong way - well, that’s beyond me too.

I actually think this would be considered a hate crime of sorts here in the US.

MikeWM:

It isn’t - and how dressing up in orange and carrying around banners while banging large drums is supposed to show how British these people are has always really confused me. The rest of us British don’t do this
Mike

That is probably because you are not in a divided country. Anywhere a country has been divided for any reason into North and South or East and West, there is life long trouble. It should never ever be allowed.

 

[Matt25]

MikeWM:

No, this I don’t understand. Why people want to celebrate the ‘great victory’ of King Billy back in 1688 - 1688! - especially when it is known that it rubs other people up the wrong way - well, that’s beyond me too.
Mike

It is a fact that Orangemen like to ignore that after King Billy’s victory in 1690 (1688 was the “Glorious Revolution”) Pope Innocent XI ordered a Te Deum to be sung in every major Church in Rome since the Vatican was backing Billy against James. Thats politics for you.

Anyways it was a long time ago. The history is less important than the fact that in effect you have two different tribes inhabiting the same land. Until they see their common humanity as beeing more important than their trivial tribal totems then there will be war without end in that lovely island.

Mary Queen of the Gael pray for them

 

[walstan]

It’s unfortunate that the problems in NI can be attributed to a much later period than “King Billy’s”" little war.

It has to be remembered that “Unionism” under some form or other has been the ruling elite in NI since partition the 1920’s. The cracks began to appear in the late 1980’s with the civil rights movement and the Unionist reactions at such places as Burntollet. All the “Troubles” as they are reffered to, are a result of the Unionist resistance to a form of civil rights common in the rest of the UK. The past system in NI was so ludicrous that my wife, living on the mainland had the vote before her father living in NI.

All the times of the troubles, Unionism was having a fairly easy ride, it was seen as upholding the original intention of partition, keeping NI within the British influence. All the time the IRA was trying to pull NI away from that position Unionism was in the ascendancy.

With the new situation and the peace process being seen to work, despite all the press “fortune telling” and the doom and gloom expressed by some, the current situation is a million times better than it was but, it has allowed police and the general population to focus on the actions of some on the fringes of Unionism. It is this focusing and the percieved loss of authority of the Orange Order that has resulted in the riots of recent days. Unionist have always been able to rely on their support by demonising the opposition, but, now the opposition has been “legitimised” and people; even some Unionists, are beginning to question the basis of this demonisation. The enevitable result is a loss of authority and, heaven forbid, the eventual possibility that somebody else may some day exercise rule over NI instead of them!

Overall you are witnessing the death throws of an anachranistic dynasty struggling to hold onto whatever degree of dwindling power it may have. The hold that Mr. (I refuse to call him reverend because that’s the one thing he isn’t) Paisley has will die with him. His is an organisation built on his own personal prejudice and, like many of its type will wither on the vine after his death. The Orange Order itself has outlived its time, similar to the KKK in America it will eventually become nothing more than a hiding place for the few idiots who still beleive in one sector of society being superior to another but it will be viewed by the vast majority of the public as a joke. The remainder, those that at present have a vested interest in territorial gains in the inner city will melt into the background to control the criminal activities, the drugs trade and other illegal money making schemes. They will simply become the gangsters of the modern day.

Eventually Ireland will return to the peaceful and wonderful island it really is and its people will live their lives as they should and as THEY want, either still as part of the UK or as part of Eire or even as an independant country in its own right.

 

[STIOFAN]

Matt25:

target of a sustained attack of “extraordinary ferocity”…

DUP leader Ian Paisley earlier blamed the Parades Commission for not reviewing the route that barred it from a nationalist area…The parade was re-routed to avoid the mainly nationalist Springfield Road area.

The parades commission was set up by the Government to monitor parades and their ruling is final, the police can and have allowed them through where public order is under threat.
This parade was banned by the parades commission, so those that went against them broke the law.
Oh ! juancross and not all republician’s are murders, I have republician views, my aspiration is for a unified Ireland, I haven’t murdered anyone much less thrown a stone.
This link is sickening, so innocent, I’m ashamed of this country. irishnews.com/images/13092005/frontpage.pdf

 

[MikeWM]

Matt25:

It is a fact that Orangemen like to ignore that after King Billy’s victory in 1690 (1688 was the “Glorious Revolution”)

Oops, yes. Thanks

Mike