Nostra Aetate

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Hello everyone,
I thought I’d pose this question to everyday Catholics.
The Nostra Aetate says that we all worship the Same God…for simplicity lets just say that ‘all’ is just Christians and Moslems.
Our most glorious God is indivisible, of course, God the Father cannot be divided/separated from God the Son. But the Nostra Aetate says that Moslems worship God the Father, but they clearly reject God the Son; this means that God the Father can be divided from His Son. Seeing as Moslems can worship Him while rejecting Him. But that is ridiculous!
I see this as a massive problem for the ruling of the Vatican, so what explaination does the Vatican have to clear up this problem?

Also in regards to the Nostra Aetate, the Vatican has stated that Moslems venerate (in their own way) the Theotokos. But they obviously don’t (they reject God the Son) and instead venerate an imaginary ‘prophettokos’. But in the Nostra Aetate it clearly says, that Moslems venerate our lady Theotokos, “They also honor Mary…at times they even call on her with devotion.”
Could I get these two questions cleared up please? God bless you all, and may He keep you all in His peace.

Nostrae aetate #3 never says “Muslims adore the same God as Catholics.” It is speaking about attributes and acts that we and Muslims hold in common to be true about God while at the same time noting major differences.

It also never says they have a theology of Mary identical to ours. Again they are looking for common ground as a starting point for prophetic dialogue, i.e., leading Muslims to a better understanding to the Catholic Faith and perhaps to considering it.

 

[Sirach2]

All I am saying is that Moslems do reject God the Son, by replacing Him with a fictional prophet character. If I am not mistaken Moslems believe that only a shadow of Jesus Christ was crucified and that he was brought up to heaven where god asked him if he ever said he was his son, to which the fictional prophet jesus replied, ‘I have said no such thing’.** So in the belief of islam itself there is a rejection of known truth**.

To them, it is not “known.” It was taught to them, and I still maintain they are invincibly ignorant until their minds and hearts are open to receiving the Truth. Just as you are studying “pre-orthodoxy” … your “known” truth is being taught to you. But it is not the fullness of Truth as revealed to us by God through the Church. If you do not accept what you have asked us to share, then I cannot help you any further. It seems your mind is made up and you are only here to challenge our beliefs.

 

[Student123]

. Just as you are studying “pre-orthodoxy” … your “known” truth is being taught to you. But it is not the fullness of Truth as revealed to us by God through the Church. If you do not accept what you have asked us to share, then I cannot help you any further. It seems your mind is made up and you are only here to challenge our beliefs.

I don’t want to get into a discussion on the Schisms. That would be too big a discussion and this thread isn’t the place for it. I’m taking ‘world religions’ next year in my high school, so this is not me trying to challenge your beliefs, but trying to find out why you believe what you believe, and getting to the root of it.
I have failed to explain my position properly in regards to Moslems being ignorant, I am having a hard time following what you are saying (sorry about that). Could you explain differently what you mean by the Roman Church’s classification of ‘invincibly ignorant’?

 

[Student123]

And Sircah2 what I mean by ‘known truth’ is simply that Moslems are aware of the truth, and stand in a position (you would say out of ignorance) against it.

 

[Sirach2]

I don’t want to get into a discussion on the Schisms. That would be too big a discussion and this thread isn’t the place for it. I’m taking ‘world religions’ next year in my high school, so this is not me trying to challenge your beliefs, but trying to find out why you believe what you believe, and getting to the root of it.
I have failed to explain my position properly in regards to Moslems being ignorant, I am having a hard time following what you are saying (sorry about that). Could you explain differently what you mean by the Roman Church’s classification of ‘invincibly ignorant’?

From Romans 2:12-16:

For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles , who have not the law, do by nature what the Law prescribes, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves: They show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, even when conflicting thoughts accouse or defend them. This will take place on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the hidden secrets of men through Jesus Christ.

In other words, if that is how they were taught to believe from their cradle and they do not know or have the fullness of Truth, but try to live according to their conscience as “written in their hearts,” they may attain salvation. As verse 16 states, only God will judge what is secret to the rest of us regarding a man’s true intention.

 

[Sirach2]

And Sircah2 what I mean by ‘known truth’ is simply that Moslems are aware of the truth, and stand in a position (you would say out of ignorance) against it.

You do not know that to be certain bona-fide truth. You have been taught that. Yes, some may be evil, but many are innocently living their beliefs as taught to them. No different in any other faith, where evil exists despite people knowing the truth as taught to them.

 

[Student123]

Well this has become more or less a discussion on justification.
But I at least now know why Catholics believe that we all worship Him, it’s because contrary to what I and others might think Moslems (among others) do not actually reject the Son of God but are just very ignorant about the whole thing. I came to get an answer, I got one. Thank you all very much. May God keep you all in His peace.

 

[fhansen]

All I am saying is that Moslems do reject God the Son, by replacing Him with a fictional prophet character. If I am not mistaken Moslems believe that only a shadow of Jesus Christ was crucified and that he was brought up to heaven where god asked him if he ever said he was his son, to which the fictional prophet jesus replied, ‘I have said no such thing’. So in the belief of islam itself there is a rejection of known truth.

Yes, the perception of God by Jews, and to a greater degree, by Moslems, is compromised or stifled but not therefore totally wrong or closed/opposed to faith.

 

[adf417]

Well this has become more or less a discussion on justification.
But I at least now know why Catholics believe that we all worship Him, it’s because contrary to what I and others might think Moslems (among others) do not actually reject the Son of God but are just very ignorant about the whole thing. I came to get an answer, I got one. Thank you all very much. May God keep you all in His peace.

Student123, would it not also follow, based on what you say you have learned here, that Orthodox and Catholics do not worship the same God?

Peace!!!

 

[christofirst]

Hello everyone,
I thought I’d pose this question to everyday Catholics.
The Nostra Aetate says that we all worship the Same God…for simplicity lets just say that ‘all’ is just Christians and Moslems.
Our most glorious God is indivisible, of course, God the Father cannot be divided/separated from God the Son. But the Nostra Aetate says that Moslems worship God the Father, but they clearly reject God the Son; this means that God the Father can be divided from His Son. Seeing as Moslems can worship Him while rejecting Him. But that is ridiculous!
I see this as a massive problem for the ruling of the Vatican, so what explaination does the Vatican have to clear up this problem?

Also in regards to the Nostra Aetate, the Vatican has stated that Moslems venerate (in their own way) the Theotokos. But they obviously don’t (they reject God the Son) and instead venerate an imaginary ‘prophettokos’. But in the Nostra Aetate it clearly says, that Moslems venerate our lady Theotokos, “They also honor Mary…at times they even call on her with devotion.”
Could I get these two questions cleared up please? God bless you all, and may He keep you all in His peace.

From an Orthodox point of view, very similar to Nostra Aetate:

incommunion.org/2008/08/02/a-brief-guide-for-Christian-Muslim-dialogue/

“The understanding of God: Muslims and Christians worship the same God (Allah, the Arabic word for God, is also used by Arab Christians). The basic testimony of Islam states “There is no God but God,” a statement Christians can also affirm. But how Christians and Muslims conceptualize God in their respective theologies is quite different… Both Islam and Christianity say that God is totally other and beyond human comprehension, completely beyond the ability of humans to grasp, yet Christians add something completely different: that God so loved the world that he was willing ‘to come down off his throne’ and became part of it, all the while remaining God 'on his throne”… Yet, although we are Trinitarian, we affirm that there is only one God. In fact, the Orthodox Christians in the Middle East always say in Arabic, ‘In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, the One God’."

This article then goes on to discuss the very real differences between Islam and Christianity, which Catholics also readily admit.

And from Nostra Aetate:

“The Church also has high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has also spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his virgin mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke.”

Our views are not so different as you would like to believe, but of course there are also plenty of Catholics and Orthodox who prefer a less charitable way of seeing things.

 

[Student123]

Student123, would it not also follow, based on what you say you have learned here, that Orthodox and Catholics do not worship the same God?

Peace!!!

No I would not say that, simply because you friendly Latins do not reject the Son of God.

 

[Student123]

From an Orthodox point of view, very similar to Nostra Aetate:

incommunion.org/2008/08/02/a-brief-guide-for-Christian-Muslim-dialogue/

"

I would not call that necessarily Orthodox, it is just the opinion of someone who happens to be Chrismated. In my experience the general view of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (The Orthodox Church) is where I am trying to come from.

 

[Student123]

I would not call that necessarily Orthodox, it is just the opinion of someone who happens to be Chrismated. In my experience the general view of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (The Orthodox Church) is where I am trying to come from.

I just saw that the author of that post happens to be a priest, I know priests that would strongly disagree with him. I just want to correct what I said of the author just being a chrismated, regardless though it is just his opinion. And I will state again, my position in my experience is the general stance of the Orthodox Catholic Church…and that is why I have taken it.

 

[Sirach2]

IAnd I will state again, my position in my experience is the general stance of the Orthodox Catholic Church…and that is why I have taken it.

In my experience the general view of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (The Orthodox Church) is where I am trying to come from.

Ah, I got it now. In addition to your bolded sentences, your OP comment was that, "I see this as a massive problem for the ruling of the Vatican, so what explanation does the Vatican have to clear up this problem? "

So you are pitting your Orthodox Church against the Catholic Church and the Vatican, who really needs to clear up their “massive problem” with one of its official documents. And our explanations to your pseudo questions fell on deaf ears, as I suspected they would. There’s a name for this type of posting …

 

[Student123]

I’m sorry Sirach2 I don’t understand what you are trying to say.
My question was grounded on the thought that there is fundamentally shaky ground for the Nostra Aetate, and my question was how the Vatican explained how that ground wasn’t shaky. I got my answer, thank you all for your help. I never meant to pit my future Church against yours, I simply said I’m here because I understand Holy Orthodoxy to be there. And I ask forgiveness from all of you, because your precious time did fall onto my deaf ears (As you know to point out Sirach2). But not only deaf ears but the most prideful, wicked, evil, rotten and perverted ears that there ever was or will be.
So please pray for me everyone, that my hard heart repents and that God will have mercy on Wretched Sinful me!!

 

[Student123]

Did you miss the part where I mentioned that they have not come to a true faith with regard to Jesus? They are ignorant, whether invincibly or vincibly, only God knows.

And you mentioned how their ignorance on our Lord does not affect their salvation…this is where thing got off topic…but does not their ignorance also mean they do not worship the one true God?
Because it is not so much ignorance as the Greeks had, the ones St. Paul came across, but ignorance in the lesser degree because they do reject; rather then just stay open to everything. They reject Jesus Christ, the Son if God, and replace Him with jesus the prophet.
I guess…how is rejecting Jesus Christ for a fictional prophet, even if it is out of ignorance, still not a rejection?

 

[thenobes]

And you mentioned how their ignorance on our Lord does not affect their salvation…this is where thing got off topic…but does not their ignorance also mean they do not worship the one true God?
Because it is not so much ignorance as the Greeks had, the ones St. Paul came across, but ignorance in the lesser degree because they do reject; rather then just stay open to everything. They reject Jesus Christ, the Son if God, and replace Him with jesus the prophet.
I guess…how is rejecting Jesus Christ for a fictional prophet, even if it is out of ignorance, still not a rejection?

Invincible ignorance.

If someone has always told you that pomegranate juice is milk, then later you are offered milk on occasion, to what extent are you at fault for rejecting these offers?

peace
steve

 

[Student123]

Invincible ignorance.

If someone has always told you that pomegranate juice is milk, then later you are offered milk on occasion, to what extent are you at fault for rejecting these offers?

peace
steve

But my question (how is rejecting Jesus Christ for a fictional profit, even if it is out of ignorance, still not rejection) isn’t about whether or not a Moslem is at fault or not, it’s about whether or not they worship God the Father.
May God keep you in His peace.

 

[adf417]

No I would not say that, simply because you friendly Latins do not reject the Son of God.

Fair enough. May I ask if all of this you are asserting is of official Orthodox theology or doctrine or is this just of your own accord? It does make a huge difference, at lease to those searching for the truth. I have noticed there are no other Orthodox on this thread reaffirming your position, why is that?

Peace!!!

 

[thenobes]

But my question (how is rejecting Jesus Christ for a fictional profit, even if it is out of ignorance, still not rejection) isn’t about whether or not a Moslem is at fault or not, it’s about whether or not they worship God the Father.
May God keep you in His peace.

What I meant was, are you really rejecting milk, or are you really rejecting pomegranate juice? Outward appearanc.es notwithstanding.