Nostra Aetate

[Student123]

To: adf417
The Orthodox Church’s offical dogmas don’t usally go outside herself, I think for the most part, but please if you have the chance reaffirm that with an Chrismated Orthdodx Catholic you should do so.
Becuase not many Orthodox tend to hang around Roman Cathoic websites?

 

[Student123]

What I meant was, are you really rejecting milk, or are you really rejecting pomegranate juice? Outward appearanc.es notwithstanding.

If I’m following you correctly (?); Moslems really do reject the Son of God otherwise they’d be Christians.

 

[adf417]

To: adf417
The Orthodox Church’s offical dogmas don’t usally go outside herself, I think for the most part, but please if you have the chance reaffirm that with an Chrismated Orthdodx Catholic you should do so.
Becuase not many Orthodox tend to hang around Roman Cathoic websites?

No I think you should do so. I really have no interest in knowing what the Orthodox beliefs are on this. You, on the other hand, I would think, should be clear on their beliefs if one is going to make these sort of assertions and at the same time carry their name.

Peace!!!

 

[Student123]

No I think you should do so. I really have no interest in knowing what the Orthodox beliefs are on this. You, on the other hand, I would think, should be clear on their beliefs if one is going to make these sort of assertions and at the same time carry their name.

Peace!!!

I do not carry their name, It should be clear that I am not an Orthodox Catholic. I thought you were interested in what the Orthdox Catholic beliefs are, as you asked me if my position was the very and full true ruling of Orthodox Catholic Church. I responded with it is not typical for the Orthodox Church to rule outside herself (answering that officaly Church has no opioion on the matter- and that I know for certain); but becuase I am not Chrismated I left room for the statment to be opened up and corrected because I am poor and stupid.
I’m sorry if I troubled you.
May God keep you in His peace!

 

[thenobes]

If I’m following you correctly (?); Moslems really do reject the Son of God otherwise they’d be Christians.

That does not follow. They might not be Christians for other reasons.

For instance, when you say they reject the Son of God, do you mean the person, and what He requires, or the very idea of a Son of God?

Because if one doesn’t accept the idea, then one is only rejecting an idea, not a person.

However, if one is doing what the person would require from one with limited knowledge, then one is implicitly following that person.

peace
steve

 

[adf417]

I do not carry their name, It should be clear that I am not an Orthodox Catholic. I thought you were interested in what the Orthdox Catholic beliefs are, as you asked me if my position was the very and full true ruling of Orthodox Catholic Church. I responded with it is not typical for the Orthodox Church to rule outside herself (answering that officaly Church has no opioion on the matter- and that I know for certain); but becuase I am not Chrismated I left room for the statment to be opened up and corrected because I am poor and stupid.
I’m sorry if I troubled you.
May God keep you in His peace!

So this is your opinion…

…it’s because contrary to what I **and others **might think Moslems (among others) do not actually reject the Son of God but are just very ignorant about the whole thing.

an opinion outside of the Orthodox belief, a belief in which you are studying to become a member of, correct?

Peace!!!

 

[TRH1292]

I just saw that the author of that post happens to be a priest, I know priests that would strongly disagree with him. I just want to correct what I said of the author just being a chrismated, regardless though it is just his opinion. And I will state again, my position in my experience is the general stance of the Orthodox Catholic Church…and that is why I have taken it.

There is no actual stance of the orthodox Church on pretty much everything. It’s really just whatever they happen to believe. The Bishops can hardly ever agree with each other and there is a large amount of doctrinal and sacramental ambiguity because there is no living teaching authority. Your position isn’t really a representation of the orthodox Church because such a thing does not exist.

 

[benjamindt]

if you think the Nostra Aetate justifies other religions, you’re absolutely wrong.

The document simply is a statement that other religions attempt to worship the same God, attempt to carry out the will of the One True God and that we who seek God should come together to fight the evil in the world.

Perhaps a muslim or a jew read this and it sparked a turn to Christ (in the long run)

Let’s not become so proud that we think we know better than the Church.

 

[benjamindt]

I know, but the deficiency of manner means they don’t worship the same God.

 

[benjamindt]

Really, the catholic church teaches that the version of God the muslims and jews worship is the EXACT SAME as the one true God?

The only way they can be the same is if God is not One, because both muslims and jews deny the divinity of Christ and therefore worship only “part” of God. God can not be divided, I assumed, and therefore we can’t be worshipping the SAME God.

 

[benjamindt]

Exactly my point, you can’t reject part of the trinity and somehow still be accepting the WHOLE.

** and together with us they adore the one, merciful God**, mankind’s judge on the last day."

Obviously not, they adore God the Father and the Holy Spirit, but they reject the Second Person of the Trinity and therefore reject all of God.

If you reject part of an indivisible, you logically reject the WHOLE as it cannot be separated.

 

[benjamindt]

You think because I disagree with one word of a statement that is not infallible means I must disagree with the whole Catechism? That’s laughable.

I disagree with the idea that Muslims worship the one, true, Trinity that is God. I think the catechism intends something different when it says the muslims worship the “true God”. I think the catechism is referring to God the Father and is recognizing that they don’t worship Zeus.

I agree with the catechism that God is a Trinity, and that God is ONE, therefore I say, logically, that if you deny one part of the Trinity, you deny the WHOLE and therefore you deny God.

Do muslims worship the Abrahamic understanding of God, yes, but Abraham did not know who Christ was. We know who Christ is now, and Muhammed knew what people were saying about Christ, but he denied it in order to propel himself to power, wealth and authority.

Read the catechism, paragraph 253, in which it states we do not worship three gods, but ONE God.

Do you disagree with the dogma of The Holy Trinity?

 

[benjamindt]

lol, ignore list comrade? I guess we’re taking apologetics out of the apologetics section of the forum.

Instead of ignoring all those who don’t fall in line with your views, why don’t you offer your reasons?

Telling someone you’re putting them on an ignore list doesn’t seem like a charitable thing to do.

 

[TRH1292]

Feel free to point out how that is a caricature. It’s abundantly clear from reading Orthodox material, such as something by Timothy Ware. The Church as a whole does not have a stance on most subjects because there is no way for the Orthodox Church to authoritatively speak outside of an Ecumenical Council, which they no longer have, and if they did there would be no sure way to have it even recognized as an ecumenical council.

The Orthodox normally rely on there bishop, for the most part, but bishops can very often go astray, as what happened during the Communist Era. Then it just becomes My Bishop V.s Your Bishop.

 

[Contarini]

Hello everyone,
I thought I’d pose this question to everyday Catholics.
The Nostra Aetate says that we all worship the Same God…for simplicity lets just say that ‘all’ is just Christians and Moslems.
Our most glorious God is indivisible, of course, God the Father cannot be divided/separated from God the Son. But the Nostra Aetate says that Moslems worship God the Father, but they clearly reject God the Son; this means that God the Father can be divided from His Son. Seeing as Moslems can worship Him while rejecting Him. But that is ridiculous!
I see this as a massive problem for the ruling of the Vatican, so what explaination does the Vatican have to clear up this problem?

I agree that speaking of Muslims worshiping “God the Father” may be misleading–it actually feeds into Muslim misunderstandings of how we think about the Trinity (Muslims think that we “add” two other gods to God the Father). It would have been better, perhaps, to say that Muslims worship in a confused and indistinct manner the God whom we know more clearly as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But on the other hand, as the Eastern Church keeps reminding us, the Father is the “arche” of the Godhead, so I think it’s probably not really a bad way of speaking. I am certainly willing to trust the Church on this over my own judgment!

If Muslims don’t worship the true God, then Jews don’t either. And not just modern Jews, but pre-Christian Jews as well, unless (like some Orthodox) you’re actually willing to argue that pre-Christian Jews did somehow worship the Trinity.

So I think the best solution is simply to say that one can worship the true God even though one understands God imperfectly.

After all, the Church teaches that people can know God by reason, but that knowledge of the Trinity comes through revelation. It thus follows necessarily that one can have some genuine knowledge of the true God without acknowledging the Trinity.

Bear in mind that St. Paul quoted pagan poets speaking of God as if they were speaking of the true God. It follows a fortiori that if pagans knew the true God in some sense, Muslims do too.

I think that the same logic follows with regard to Jesus and Mary. Muslims don’t venerate the Theotokos as the Theotokos, but they venerate Mary the mother of Jesus, and this veneration of a historical person, even if they’re both historically and theologically muddled about her, is not to be discounted.
Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Yes.
It is important to note that Judaism before the incarnation of our Lord was legitimate Judaism…’salvation is from the Jews’ . However, since the Jews today reject Jesus Christ they are not Jews in the true sense. I will put it like this, if I accept God the Father then I’ve already accepted Jesus Christ (as He said something like, ‘I am the only way to the Father’) and in the same way if I reject Jesus Christ then I also completely reject the Godhead. The Jews know what they don’t worship; God the Son and by result we must conclude the entire Godhead.

But there’s no evidence that Jews, in rejecting Jesus, changed any of their ideas about God.

It thus boggles the mind to say that they were worshiping the true God one minute, and not the next, because they rejected a claim that contradicted what they already believed.

Edwin

 

[benjamindt]

the difference you make is “pre-Christian”.

It’s one thing to worship God while God hasn’t been made flesh and the idea of the Trinity has not been revealed and another thing to have Christ already come, to have His message spread throughout the world and to reject Him or deny His true nature(s).

I don’t discount that some in this world haven’t a clue who Christ is as of yet, but clearly Mohammed knew who Christ was, or at least who people were claiming He is and he denied who Christ is. Mohammed (the founder of Islam) didn’t worship God without the understanding of the Trinity but rather rejected Christ (for personal gain in my opinion) and in doing so, rejected God. (if we’re to believe what Christ said in the scriptures…)

So whereas pre-Christian jews rightly worshipped the one true God, when God further revealed Himself through the sending of His Son, the acceptance of God the Father now necessitates the acceptance of His Son. The opposite being also true, if you reject Christ, you reject the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Contarini]

the difference you make is “pre-Christian”.

It’s one thing to worship God while God hasn’t been made flesh and the idea of the Trinity has not been revealed and another thing to have Christ already come, to have His message spread throughout the world and to reject Him or deny His true nature(s).

I don’t discount that some in this world haven’t a clue who Christ is as of yet, but clearly Mohammed knew who Christ was, or at least who people were claiming He is and he denied who Christ is. Mohammed (the founder of Islam) didn’t worship God without the understanding of the Trinity but rather rejected Christ (for personal gain in my opinion) and in doing so, rejected God. (if we’re to believe what Christ said in the scriptures…)

So whereas pre-Christian jews rightly worshipped the one true God, when God further revealed Himself through the sending of His Son, the acceptance of God the Father now necessitates the acceptance of His Son. The opposite being also true, if you reject Christ, you reject the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I get how this works in terms of moral accountability. I don’t get how it works in terms of the content of your belief. If the content of your belief is exactly the same in the two instances, then your belief can’t, it seems to me, have a true object in the one case and a false one in the other.

Edwin

 

[benjamindt]

I get how this works in terms of moral accountability. I don’t get how it works in terms of the content of your belief. If the content of your belief is exactly the same in the two instances, then your belief can’t, it seems to me, have a true object in the one case and a false one in the other.

Edwin

I apologize if I don’t understand what you’re getting at, but I don’t see the contradiction in the last bit I wrote. We can know who we believe in only in so far as He reveals Himself to us, and so it’s one thing to worship God the Father when He hasn’t revealed the Trinity and another thing to reject Christ and the Trinity after the Truth has been revealed.

I don’t see the difficulty in understanding that.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I apologize if I don’t understand what you’re getting at, but I don’t see the contradiction in the last bit I wrote. We can know who we believe in only in so far as He reveals Himself to us, and so it’s one thing to worship God the Father when He hasn’t revealed the Trinity and another thing to reject Christ and the Trinity after the Truth has been revealed.

I don’t see the difficulty in understanding that.

The difficulty is when you ascribe to a person the supposed rejection that to you is absolute and without reason, but to the person is reasonable and even pious.

You fail to recognize that everyone approaches religion (and everything in life for that matter) with a set of first principles (unquestioned yet unprovable). If a person’s first principle is that there is (and can only be) ONE God, then the idea of a Trinity as revealed by Jesus Christ, can only be seen as True if we Believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. This Faith in Jesus Christ comes from God, not from logical arguments. Matt 16:17 It is divine Faith.

Therefore, the Jews (and Muslims) almost invariably consider Chrisitans as polytheists! We can yell back that there are 3 persons in ONE God, but that sounds dissembling and rationalizing to them. IOW, they maintain their rejection of the Trinity in reverence to the ONE God.

You can not therefore say they are worshiping a different God, just a less accurate God, if I can use that expression.