Nostra Aetate

[benjamindt]

I see your point, but truth is not subjective or relative, therefore while they may be worshipping some semblance of God, we know that they are, in fact, not worshipping God as He has further revealed Himself to the world through Christ. The image they have of God is not the truth.

I still don’t understand what point this all has in the long run, does this mean that we should not be proselytizing jews and muslims? Are we just pointing out the fact that they worship an incomplete image of God?

I don’t understand what point this has to play in anything. Mohammed was a false prophet, was he not, so why do we treat Islam any different than Arianism or Mormonism?

 

[Contarini]

I apologize if I don’t understand what you’re getting at, but I don’t see the contradiction in the last bit I wrote. We can know who we believe in only in so far as He reveals Himself to us, and so it’s one thing to worship God the Father when He hasn’t revealed the Trinity and another thing to reject Christ and the Trinity after the Truth has been revealed.

I don’t see the difficulty in understanding that.

It’s morally different. But the content didn’t change.

What did Jews believe about God before the coming of Jesus that they didn’t believe after, or vice versa?

It makes no sense.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I see your point, but truth is not subjective or relative, therefore while they may be worshipping some semblance of God, we know that they are, in fact, not worshipping God as He has further revealed Himself to the world through Christ. The image they have of God is not the truth.

I still don’t understand what point this all has in the long run, does this mean that we should not be proselytizing jews and muslims? Are we just pointing out the fact that they worship an incomplete image of God?

I don’t understand what point this has to play in anything. Mohammed was a false prophet, was he not, so why do we treat Islam any different than Arianism or Mormonism?

Arians worshiped the true God.

Mormons are a more complicated case because they aren’t clearly monotheistic.

The best case against Muslims worshiping the true God would be that they are anthropomorphists. But I don’t think all of them are by any means, and parts of the OT seem pretty anthropomorphic. On the other hand, parts of the OT also seem “henotheistic” rather than monotheistic, so perhaps there’s a case to be made that the Mormons do worship the true God. But their ideas about God are far more confused than those of the Muslims.

Edwin

 

[AmbroseSJ]

benjamindt:

I still don’t understand what point this all has in the long run, does this mean that we should not be proselytizing jews and muslims? Are we just pointing out the fact that they worship an incomplete image of God?

The point is that we need to be sensitive to the viewpoint of others, if we wish to make converts. IOW, not look upon them as having rejected the Truth. If we know how they differ from us, we have a much better chance of meeting them in the middle.

My approach is to vigorously affirm that as a Christian I am a monotheist just like they are. I have to understand that the key is belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. But this will take more than what I can give. It will take Divine Faith. Therefore I have to try and answer their objections in a sympathetic way, so that, as Pope Francis has said, they are not inoculated against the Faith.

 

[mardukm]

THIS is the most sensible post I’ve read on this thread on the actual text. I don’t know why Student123 did not respond to it.

It seems like Student123 was just baiting everyone, and a lot of people got hooked with Student123’s erroneous premise that Nostra Aetate was claiming that we worship the SAME God as Muslims.

Everything Nostra Aetate states is true. The attributes enumerated are recognized by both Muslims and Christians to be the same in the God that we respectively worship.

How that translates to the accusation that Nostra Aetate is teaching “we worship the same God” I cannot logically comprehend.

Seems to be typical of how non-Catholics justify their rejection of the Catholic Faith - attribute a teaching to the Catholic Church she does not actually teach and VIOLA, the Catholic Church is wrong!

Blessings

Blessings,
Marduk

Nostrae aetate #3 never says “Muslims adore the same God as Catholics.” It is speaking about attributes and acts that we and Muslims hold in common to be true about God while at the same time noting major differences.

It also never says they have a theology of Mary identical to ours. Again they are looking for common ground as a starting point for prophetic dialogue, i.e., leading Muslims to a better understanding to the Catholic Faith and perhaps to considering it.

 

[Contarini]

THIS is the most sensible post I’ve read on this thread on the actual text. I don’t know why Student123 did not respond to it.

It seems like Student123 was just baiting everyone, and a lot of people got hooked with Student123’s erroneous premise that Nostra Aetate was claiming that we worship the SAME God as Muslims.

Everything Nostra Aetate states is true. The attributes enumerated are recognized by both Muslims and Christians to be the same in the God that we respectively worship.

How that translates to the accusation that Nostra Aetate is teaching “we worship the same God” I cannot logically comprehend.

Seems to be typical of how non-Catholics justify their rejection of the Catholic Faith - attribute a teaching to the Catholic Church she does not actually teach and VIOLA, the Catholic Church is wrong!

Blessings

Blessings,
Marduk

It says “together with us they adore the one, merciful God.” That’s not just attributes. That’s clearly a claim that we worship the same God–precisely because Muslims believe in the same fundamental attributes that Christians do.

It’s impossible for two people both to worship "the one, merciful God’ and not be worshiping the same God.

Edwin

 

[mardukm]

Where is that? It is not a line found in the English translation on the Vatican website.

Blessings

It says “together with us they adore the one, merciful God.”

 

[Contarini]

Where is that? It is not a line found in the English translation on the Vatican website.

Blessings

You’re right. It’s not from NA: it’s from Lumen Gentium, paragraph 16, quoted in CCC 841 (which also footnotes NA, implying that they are essentially saying the same thing).

I’m sorry for the imprecision–I forgot that we were talking about NA and not LG or the Catechism. But I think my point stands that this is Church teaching and the proper context for understanding NA.

Edwin

 

[benjamindt]

I still don’t understand why islam is any different than any other heresy. They’re still wrong and they’re still wrong.

Yes it’s wonderful to understand the culture, beliefs, customs and all kinds of other things of those we are called to proselytize but I don’t see why we’re making such a big deal about Islam having some truth in some of its beliefs.

Even an atheist can have some truth in some of their beliefs.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Contarini,

You’re right. It’s not from NA: it’s from Lumen Gentium, paragraph 16, quoted in CCC 841 (which also footnotes NA, implying that they are essentially saying the same thing).

I’m sorry for the imprecision–I forgot that we were talking about NA and not LG or the Catechism. But I think my point stands that this is Church teaching and the proper context for understanding NA.

I’m afraid I disagree. The Muslims believe in God Who is merciful. Christians believe in God Who is merciful. Muslims believe in God Who will judge on the Last Day. We believe in God Who will judge on the Last Day. It’s perfectly logical and fine to say, "We, along with them, believe in God Who is merciful and Who will judge on the Last Day. That does not mean we believe in the same God.

As others have stated, we must start from common ground in order to evangelize properly. That’s just the best way to do it in dialogue. We have that common ground with the Muslims. It does not mean we believe in the same God. For they certainly do not believe God incarnated, nor in God the Holy Spirit who is a distinct Person from the other two Persons of the Trinity – and they don’t profess to. We can acknowledge common ground - fine. But we don’t need to be saying that we believe in the SAME God for that to happen, for they will certainly not admit it. Even while professing common ground, the most irenic Muslims will certainly never admit they believe in the same God we do. So why would anyone assume that the Catholic Church is bending over backwards and teaching that we believe in the same God as the Muslims?

However, I do believe that anyone who has a simple monotheistic faith, and have never heard the Gospel or are invincibly ignorant of Christianity, believes in the same God as Christianity. Such people are in the same boat as the Romans who Paul acknowledged worshipped an unknown God Who was the same God he worshipped. But that rationale does not work so well with those who have heard the Gospel and rejected it. And, frankly, many Muslims are in that situation (certainly not all). In fact, the early Fathers who encountered the Muslims recognized them as heretics.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[benjamindt]

The bold lettering is my doing for emphasis, not the op.

Dear brother Contarini,

I’m afraid I disagree. The Muslims believe in God Who is merciful. Christians believe in God Who is merciful. Muslims believe in God Who will judge on the Last Day. We believe in God Who will judge on the Last Day. It’s perfectly logical and fine to say, "We, along with them, believe in God Who is merciful and Who will judge on the Last Day. That does not mean we believe in the same God.

As others have stated, we must start from common ground in order to evangelize properly. That’s just the best way to do it in dialogue. We have that common ground with the Muslims. It does not mean we believe in the same God. For they certainly do not believe God incarnated, nor in God the Holy Spirit who is a distinct Person from the other two Persons of the Trinity – and they don’t profess to. We can acknowledge common ground - fine. But we don’t need to be saying that we believe in the SAME God for that to happen, for they will certainly not admit it. Even while professing common ground, the most irenic Muslims will certainly never admit they believe in the same God we do. So why would anyone assume that the Catholic Church is bending over backwards and teaching that we believe in the same God as the Muslims?

However, I do believe that anyone who has a simple monotheistic faith, and have never heard the Gospel or are invincibly ignorant of Christianity, believes in the same God as Christianity. Such people are in the same boat as the Romans who Paul acknowledged worshipped an unknown God Who was the same God he worshipped. But that rationale does not work so well with those who have heard the Gospel and rejected it. And, frankly, many Muslims are in that situation (certainly not all). In fact, the** early Fathers who encountered the Muslims recognized them as heretics.**

Blessings,
Marduk

Well said. If I had the ability to clearly put forth my opinions on this subject, this would have been what it looked like.

I don’t see any reason to say anything else but, well said.

 

[Contarini]

I still don’t understand why islam is any different than any other heresy.

Who is saying that they are? I don’t understand what you’re objecting to.

Yes it’s wonderful to understand the culture, beliefs, customs and all kinds of other things of those we are called to proselytize but I don’t see why we’re making such a big deal about Islam having some truth in some of its beliefs.

Because of the excessive and indeed unorthodox things some people say in their hatred of Islam, and because this has particular consequences given the size of Islam, the reality of Islamic terrorism, the phenomenon of large-scale Islamic immigration in Europe and to a lesser extent in the U.S., and the heavy political and military involvement of the U.S. and to a lesser extent Europe in the Middle East.

Even an atheist can have some truth in some of their beliefs.

Indeed. In fact, some atheists have more truth on some points than some Muslims. But since Muslims “adore the one merciful God together with us,” they have a lot more in common with us, on the whole, than atheists or even “non-Abrahamic” religions do.

Edwin

 

[benjamindt]

if some atheists have more truth in what they believe than the muslims, then we in fact have more in common with those atheists.

Regardless, this seems like we’re pointing out the similarities for no other reason than the fact that Islam is spreading quicker than any other heresy out there.

It’s like this: There are several bullies in a school and we decide to make a big effort in telling the biggest bully how closely related we are to them and that’s somehow going to make him less of a bully.

 

[Contarini]

Dear brother Contarini,

I’m afraid I disagree. The Muslims believe in God Who is merciful. Christians believe in God Who is merciful. Muslims believe in God Who will judge on the Last Day. We believe in God Who will judge on the Last Day. It’s perfectly logical and fine to say, "We, along with them, believe in God Who is merciful and Who will judge on the Last Day. That does not mean we believe in the same God.

Well, the English translation says “the one,” implying identity, as does “together with us.”

And logically there’s no way there can be two “one, merciful Gods,” as it were.

As others have stated, we must start from common ground in order to evangelize properly. That’s just the best way to do it in dialogue. We have that common ground with the Muslims. It does not mean we believe in the same God. For they certainly do not believe God incarnated, nor in God the Holy Spirit who is a distinct Person from the other two Persons of the Trinity – and they don’t profess to. We can acknowledge common ground - fine. But we don’t need to be saying that we believe in the SAME God for that to happen, for they will certainly not admit it. Even while professing common ground, the most irenic Muslims will certainly never admit they believe in the same God we do.

You are definitely wrong here. I have yet to meet a Muslim who doesn’t think, as a matter of course, that we worship the same God, and isn’t baffled by the fact that some Christians think otherwise. And I’m not talking about particularly irenic Muslims. I took my students to a mosque in Fort Wayne where the imam deliberately preached an anti-Christian sermon because he knew we were there, denouncing our belief in the divinity of Jesus and warning that those who believe such things go to hell. But that didn’t cause him or the other Muslim leaders in that mosque to say that we worship a different God. In the conversation afterwards, they said explicitly that they thought we do, and they were cheered to find that I agreed. (Granted, their understanding is that we worship Allah as “the Father” and add two “associates” to Him, which is a complete misunderstanding of the Trinity in my opinion.) As far as I can see, this is the standard view among not-particularly-irenic Muslims

I’m certainly willing to believe that your experience is different, and that Muslims in different parts of the world are more likely to take a harsher view. But your sweeping statement was factually erroneous–that I know for certain.

So why would anyone assume that the Catholic Church is bending over backwards and teaching that we believe in the same God as the Muslims?

Apart from the fact that you’re wrong about Muslims, Christians should not calibrate our attitude to other religions by theirs to us.

However, I do believe that anyone who has a simple monotheistic faith, and have never heard the Gospel or are invincibly ignorant of Christianity, believes in the same God as Christianity.

That doesn’t make sense. If the content of the belief is the same, then the intellectual object must be the same. If simple monotheists believe in the true God, then they believe in the true God no matter whether they have heard of Jesus or not. Their moral and spiritual accountability will vary, but not the content of their belief.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

if some atheists have more truth in what they believe than the muslims, then we in fact have more in common with those atheists.

In certain limited, specific respects. And no atheists have more truth than all Muslims. There is no truth that atheists, as atheists, confess and Muslims, as Muslims, reject.

Regardless, this seems like we’re pointing out the similarities for no other reason than the fact that Islam is spreading quicker than any other heresy out there.

It’s like this: There are several bullies in a school and we decide to make a big effort in telling the biggest bully how closely related we are to them and that’s somehow going to make him less of a bully.

No. Quite the reverse. We are trying to be less of a bully ourselves.

We are simply trying to tell the truth. Why turn everything into a power contest?

The truth needs to be told with particular urgency when the opposing error risks inflaming violence and causing a “clash of civilizations,” true. That’s why this is an issue of particular concern (whereas the question whether we worship the same God as Sikhs isn’t of as uch importance–which I think is regrettable, since it’s in some ways a more interesting and fruitful dialogue).

Edwin

 

[benjamindt]

In fact, some atheists have more truth on some points than some Muslims.
Edwin

And no atheists have more truth than all Muslims. There is no truth that atheists, as atheists, confess and Muslims, as Muslims, reject.

No. Quite the reverse. We are trying to be less of a bully ourselves.

We’re being bullies by trying to bring Christ to those who don’t know Him?

 

[Contarini]

We’re being bullies by trying to bring Christ to those who don’t know Him?

No, not at all. We’re being bullies when we try to stop the construction of mosques, beat up or even kill people who look Muslim (who often turn out to be Sikh or Christian anyway, not that it wouldn’t still be wrong if they were Muslims), drop bombs on remote villages because we think that some of the people there just might have something to do with fighting our invading armies in a neighboring country, and so on. When American soldiers painted “Jesus killed Muhammad” on an armored vehicle before going on patrol in an Iraqi city, they were being bullies (as well as being utterly clueless). When Christians protest at positive portrayals of Muslims in the media (like the fuss over the “American Muslim” TV program), they are being bullies.

My point was that a hostile attitude to Islam fosters this kind of bullying. You were suggesting that Muslims have the upper hand and are always the “bullies,” so that taking a conciliatory stance toward Muslims is an act of appeasement. I’m putting the shoe on the other foot: I’m saying that the U.S., which is majority Christian, is by far the most powerful nation in the world right now and that how the U.S. uses its immense military power is affected by how Christians in the U.S. think about Islam. That’s the kind of concern that makes a discussion of our relationship to Islam particularly relevant. We are supporting Israel in part because many Americans think that “Arabs,” whom they identify with Muslims (ignoring Palestinian Christianity), are just automatically the bad guys. And so on. Only in a fantasy world are Muslims the ones with all the power and the rest of us are cowering in fear. Terrorism is vile and horrific, but it is the act of the underdog.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Well, I’ve read a supposedly eyewitness account. Admittedly, it’s from Jeff Sharlet, a journalist who certainly has an agenda. According to Sharlet, the commanding officer of that unit (who had also been in Kosovo, etc.) was pretty shocked by his soldiers’ behavior, but apparently didn’t do much about it. Sharlet’s argument is that right-wing Christians in the military are subverting the professionalism of the military your father knew with an agenda of using U.S. political and military power to spread their version of Christianity. I find Sharlet overly “conspiracy-theoryish,” but I am slow to accuse him of outright lying. (I’ve actually interacted with him directly on Facebook several years ago–I made some derogatory comments about his work and he contacted me directly. I got the impression that he was honest and sincere, just as my right-wing friends are–but perhaps I’m naive)

It’s a shocking story, if true.

Edwin

 

[benjamindt]

No, not at all. We’re being bullies when we try to stop the construction of mosques, beat up or even kill people who look Muslim (who often turn out to be Sikh or Christian anyway, not that it wouldn’t still be wrong if they were Muslims), drop bombs on remote villages because we think that some of the people there just might have something to do with fighting our invading armies in a neighboring country, and so on. When American soldiers painted “Jesus killed Muhammad” on an armored vehicle before going on patrol in an Iraqi city, they were being bullies (as well as being utterly clueless). When Christians protest at positive portrayals of Muslims in the media (like the fuss over the “American Muslim” TV program), they are being bullies.

My point was that a hostile attitude to Islam fosters this kind of bullying. You were suggesting that Muslims have the upper hand and are always the “bullies,” so that taking a conciliatory stance toward Muslims is an act of appeasement. I’m putting the shoe on the other foot: I’m saying that the U.S., which is majority Christian, is by far the most powerful nation in the world right now and that how the U.S. uses its immense military power is affected by how Christians in the U.S. think about Islam. That’s the kind of concern that makes a discussion of our relationship to Islam particularly relevant. We are supporting Israel in part because many Americans think that “Arabs,” whom they identify with Muslims (ignoring Palestinian Christianity), are just automatically the bad guys. And so on. Only in a fantasy world are Muslims the ones with all the power and the rest of us are cowering in fear. Terrorism is vile and horrific, but it is the act of the underdog.

Edwin

I didn’t realize the catholic church was killing people who look like muslims, stopping construction of mosques, and otherwise being completely violent towards muslims.

I’m distraught at your warped view of how people treat muslims, as though they are all victims of some false image that they had nothing to do with. Show me the islamic state that doesn’t stone christians, doesn’t want to destroy israel, doesn’t treat women like property and animals, etc.

Before you begin applying these “supposed eyewitness accounts” I suggest you take a deep breath and take a step back and stop pretending that somehow the balance of hate is falling against Islam.

There is no hate in condemning Islam as heresy, it is simply the truth.

I can’t believe you are justifying terrorism by calling it the act of the underdog. That is completely sick.

When islamic terrorists taped the mouths of children shut, bound their arms behind them, and attached bombs to them to attack the US troops who were waiting outside baghdad, do you think that was the act of an underdog?

You really ought to open your eyes, because while there is hatred against the islamic community, I am sure for every instance of that you can find 1000 other instances of hatred being spun out against Christians or non muslims alike.

I have no problem understanding the foundations of people we try to evangelize, but to go off on this agenda that somehow the only reason islam is violent in many areas is because of aggressive outside forces and if only we’d leave them alone they’d live in peace with everyone else is not only underhanded, it is wrong.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Contarini,

I accept everything that Nostra Aetate or Lumen Gentium teaches. But unless you can show a specific statement from those or any other Magisterial document that:
(1) “We believe in the same God as the Muslims”; or
(2) “We do not believe God incarnated”; or
(3) “We do not believe God the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity,”
I seriously fail to see the logic of your claims. I can in good conscience confess with any Muslim, “We believe God is merciful…we believe God will judge on the last day…etc.” Beyond this, I cannot in good conscience make any other statement about God in common ground with a Muslim.

You are definitely wrong here. I have yet to meet a Muslim who doesn’t think, as a matter of course, that we worship the same God

It doesn’t matter how many Muslims claim that we believe in the same God as them. My point is that there are Muslims (from my own experience) who do not claim it, but can still maintain friendly relations with Christians. So I do not comprehend the doctrinal nor practical necessity of trying to claim “We believe in the same God as the Muslims,” particularly since the Church formally teaches no such thing. The type of Muslims who will do violence to Christians and other non-Muslims are not the type who will care about these doctrinal nuances. We can maintain friendly relations with Muslims who are willing by admitting our common ground - and that should be enough. We can admit common ground without straying into doctrinal excess.

I’m certainly willing to believe that your experience is different, and that Muslims in different parts of the world are more likely to take a harsher view. But your sweeping statement was factually erroneous–that I know for certain.

It’s not a sweeping statement, but an objective fact. Muslims do not believe or worship God incarnated.

Apart from the fact that you’re wrong about Muslims

Muslims do not worship God incarnate and they all admit that. Show me a Muslim who professes otherwise and I’ll admit I’m wrong.

That doesn’t make sense. If the content of the belief is the same, then the intellectual object must be the same. If simple monotheists believe in the true God, then they believe in the true God no matter whether they have heard of Jesus or not. Their moral and spiritual accountability will vary, but not the content of their belief.

Incorrect. God is the same now and forever. But we are not talking about the ontological reality of God Who is beyond mere human conception - we are talking about BELIEF. Belief is not equivalent to ontological reality. My belief about God as a Christian is NOT the same as the belief of a Muslim about God beyond what Nostra Aetate or Lumen Gentium teach about the matter - and no amount of interpretative wishful thinking will change that objective fact. So it is inappropriate (to say the least) to go around proclaiming “we BELIEVE in the same God as the Muslims.” The uttermost a Catholic can confess is exactly what Nostra Aetate or Lumen Gentium teaches. But nowhere do those documents state “we believe in the same God as the Muslims.”

The epistemological analogy to worship is identical because we only worship according to what we believe - the uttermost we can confess with Muslims is,“we worship together God Who is merciful, and Who will come to judge on the Last Day.” But it is utterly inappropriate (to say the least) to claim without qualification, “we worship together the SAME God” - because we DON’T. Muslims do NOT worship God Who incarnated, while we do. And no Muslim will admit that they worship God Who incarnated. So it is illogical to claim we are worshipping the same God.

To repeat, it is well that we recognize common ground, but let us not stray to doctrinal excesses. If Catholics want to profess something in common with Muslims, they should profess exactly what Nostra Aetate or Lumen Gentium asserts, and nothing more.

Blessings,
Marduk