Not attending brother's wedding

[Cristiano]

Interesting. So your answer is “it wouldn’t bother me at all and I am happy they are strong in their faith”? That is very impressive to me. I know if parents/siblings had done that at our wedding, I would be very hurt. I guess I find it hard to believe that people would be nonchalant about being abandoned on their wedding day. Do you have any experiences with this at your wedding?

That brings up a second follow on question: To all the people recommending boycotting a close family wedding, has anyone had this happen to them first hand? Meaning, a demonstrated time when they were on the receiving end, so to speak, of this kind of treatment? And it must be a similar situation. Not 3 times divorced/on Meth/Pegan situation. Similar to the OP, two otherwise nice and normal people, just different Christian background. I would love to hear from them.

I have been on the giving line and receiving line. When I was in the giving line I discussed the issue with my spiritual director, once I went to the wedding and the other I did not. I have been on the receiving line too, and it was not pleasant; however I do not care too much either. I thought that the person was wrong but I did not feel wronged, it was not about me or the other, it was only about choices.
The point is that people have to talk with open hearts and be willing to accept the fact that we will not agree on everything even very important stuff. Love must be a constant effort otherwise is it not love. I trust more the love of a person that sometime rejects what I choose, then the feeling good just because someone tries not to upset me. Truth can be upsetting especially when you recognize it and still want to reject it, at least that it is what happens to me.

 

[EasterJoy]

Interesting. So your answer is “it wouldn’t bother me at all and I am happy they are strong in their faith”? That is very impressive to me. I know if parents/siblings had done that at our wedding, I would be very hurt. I guess I find it hard to believe that people would be nonchalant about being abandoned on their wedding day. Do you have any experiences with this at your wedding?

That brings up a second follow on question: To all the people recommending boycotting a close family wedding, has anyone had this happen to them first hand? Meaning, a demonstrated time when they were on the receiving end, so to speak, of this kind of treatment? And it must be a similar situation. Not 3 times divorced/on Meth/Pegan situation. Similar to the OP, two otherwise nice and normal people, just different Christian background. I would love to hear from them.

Not this exact situation, but similar sibling differences of opinion throughout the extended family. You know your siblings, you have a history with them, and that is going to have a lot to do with whether one would sigh and say, “Oh, I know he means well, I wish he would change his mind, but this is just what he has to do, God love him, he’s always been like that, and heaven knows he would try to understand if I did the same thing to him” or “He’s being a bully and a self-important pain in the hind end AGAIN, as if no one in the world but him can tell right from wrong, and I can just imagine what a fit he’d throw if I got all high and mighty and didn’t show for HIS wedding” or “Mom’s upset, but she doesn’t want any fuss, so we have to grin and bear it or she’ll disown us” or “I wish he’d have talked to me before making all these assumptions about me and all these chats with our brothers and sisters behind my back and getting Mom all upset” or…

Well, you get the idea. How we take something our siblings do or say and how they take us depends so much on the history of the relationship and of the family.

By the way, what does the OPs brother have to say about all of this? Parents? Other siblings? Has there been any communication? Is direct communication allowed in this family, is everything indirect and covert, or what’s the family operating system in place? There is a limit to how much control the OP has over what meaning will be placed on his/her going or not going, within the family.

 

[friendship]

Hi, I am a new user in this site :tiphat:

:nun2:

 

[that_name]

I have been on both sides. There were very close members of my family who did not come to my wedding because they did not approve. I have not attended weddings (divorce, not free to re-marry once, another was a Catholic who chose to marry without dispensation outside the Church).

In none of the cases was someone “banished from my life” or any such hystronic nonsense. We respect each other’s beliefs.

We know how to “love the sinner and hate the sin”. Guess I am blessed to have such people in my life.

 

[zab]

Two of our children married outside the church. Neither invited us to their wedding. They were not trying to offend us- they just respected our beliefs by not putting us on the spot to attend a wedding that they knew we would not approve of. But they know that they are welcome in our home.

 

[Apryl]

I guess I should count myself lucky that so many Catholic friends and family attended our Public Formalization of Adultery ceremony my “wife” and I had this past September. We are hoping to have our first Bastard Child sometime next year. I just hope we have enough goats for the sacrificial alter to make it happen.

OK, obvious sarcasm aside, I have an honest question to those judging from on high. Would you feel the same if the roles were reversed? Would you smile and welcome with open arms those that condemned your marriage with the same terms you are condemning others? Looking for real responses here. And please don’t respond with something that amounts to “because I am right”.

If you’re married, how could your child be a bastard?

I’m just asking!

 

[EasterJoy]

Two of our children married outside the church. Neither invited us to their wedding. They were not trying to offend us- they just respected our beliefs by not putting us on the spot to attend a wedding that they knew we would not approve of. But they know that they are welcome in our home.

Just curious: Do you know this via direct communication or is it assumed without having ever been said in so many words? If via direct communication, did you talk about it with them before the weddings, or after? Who initiated the conversation? If via indirect communication, how do you know what your relatives were/are thinking, and that they know what you’re thinking?

 

[PassingThru]

If you’re married, how could your child be a bastard?

I’m just asking!

Ha, well, that whole paragraph was a stab at some posts on this board that directly state that any marriage not in their church (in this case it just happened to be Catholic) was a “Public Formalization of Adultery” ceremony. If this is the case, then my “wife” is not really my wife, and any children we have are of course bastards. Just using neck deep sarcasm to point out others incredible ability to be an example of Gods love… See, there is that sarcasm again!

 

[EasterJoy]

Ha, well, that whole paragraph was a stab at some posts on this board that directly state that any marriage not in their church (in this case it just happened to be Catholic) was a “Public Formalization of Adultery” ceremony. If this is the case, then my “wife” is not really my wife, and any children we have are of course bastards. Just using neck deep sarcasm to point out others incredible ability to be an example of Gods love… See, there is that sarcasm again!

I know you’re just joking, but it should be pointed out that the idea of “illegitimate children” has been retired. It is only the parents that can be bastards. Kids are all legitimate, no matter what means their parents found to bring them into the world.

I hope your sarcasm does not imply that no good friend or faithful family member has any right to object to any marriage that the state sees fit to allow. That is a bit over the top in favor of good old American Individualism. Whether we are right to tell people who don’t like our choices to “grow up” depends very much on whether we have been conducting our own lives as grown-ups should. If you had a family member who became a fundamentalist Mormon, would you go to a wedding in which he took his second wife? If your brother decided to drop your sister-in-law (whom he says himself has done him no harm) and their children so he could run off to follow his bliss and marry his 20-year-old secretary, would you begrudge you siblings who didn’t see fit to wish the weasel every happiness in the world? Would you really condemn the Christian minister who dared to refuse to perform the second marriage?

But let’s consider your own situation:

As I said, I was recently married. I am Lutheran, wife is Catholic. If ANY of our 200 or so guests had even mentioned their own internal “issues” with our marriage, my wife and I would have absolutely zero tolerance listening to the kind of drivel being shoveled around here. Grow up. PLEASE NOTE: This has nothing to do with Catholic or Protestant beliefs. Where we were married is not the issue.

Your marriage, since it was presumably contracted between two baptised persons who were both free to marry, while it may or may not have been licit (within canon law, depending on whether your wife obtained permission from the biship for a mixed marriage), is presumably both valid and sacramental. If someone were to stay away from the ceremony because it was not licit (not according to Church law), that does not imply that the marriage is not valid or that your relationship with your wife is adulterous. Licit and valid are not the same thing.

On the other hand, if your wife didn’t get married in a Catholic church and didn’t see fit to get permission to marry outside of it, it might fairly be assumed that she indeed does not think her marriage has anything to do with her Catholic beliefs. If those don’t come up when one marries, it might be fairly asked when it might be expected that they will come up? How is the Sacrament of Marriage none of her church’s business?

Furthermore, if one of you has a former spouse floating around somewhere, you’ll find that a great many people, religious or not, think it is absolutely the business of grown-ups to care about the status of the first marriage before giving credence to the second one. The only difference is what different people think about the circumstances under which a person may leave one putative marriage and feel free to contract a second one. Some people don’t make the state they live in the ultimate authority on marriage. If you do, that’s your business, but is it really fair to insist that fellow Christians tell their church’s to blow off on that matter? Again, might it not be fairly asked what the churchs DO have authority to speak on? Most of us want to hear from our spiritual leaders about matters of more import than what colors of vestments are allowed.

If you enforce no moral standards on your friends and relatives, and treat them the same no matter how they treat anyone else and no matter what they do, then I suppose that is your business. Were I you, though, I would not be so bold as to say that you exceed everyone else in the world in imitating God’s love, for Christ did not tell us that those who would follow him were bound ignore the sins of others in the church. We are to tend to our own first, but nowhere did the Lord say that we are to get so intent on the beams in our own eye that the sliver in our brother’s eye becomes of no consequence to us. Somebody just made that last bit up. Rather, if our brother sins, we are to correct him, and if he repents, then we are to forgive him. (Luke 17:3)

Christ also told us "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come! " (Matt. 18:6-7). This is where all this talk about “giving scandal” comes from. We are conscience-bound to consider whether our actions teach innocent people that something is OK when it is not. Again, that is not contrary to God’s love, but fundamental to it.

I think that maybe you should re-consider what you do and don’t have zero tolerance for. Having zero tolerance for people who only mean to follow their own consciences, when you obviously expect them to let you follow yours…who is it that is being unfair, here?

 

[PassingThru]

Wow EasterJoy, that was one heck of a response!!! Thanks! You make some good points, and I agree with most of what you say. But, I think you have strayed waaaaay off of my point, and drawn some conclusions that I have not said or implied! I think you are disagreeing with things I have not even touched on.

“I know you’re just joking, but it should be pointed out that the idea of “illegitimate children” has been retired. It is only the parents that can be bastards. Kids are all legitimate, no matter what means their parents found to bring them into the world.”

OK, but I think you are reading a bit to literally. That was just me making a smart remark!

“I hope your sarcasm does not imply that no good friend or faithful family member has any right to object to any marriage that the state sees fit to allow. That is a bit over the top in favor of good old American Individualism.”

It does not imply that, and I don’t think anything I said even touched on that. I have said in my posts that I am only talking about a couple with no other areas to object to other than the fact that they are having a wedding in a church that some other person or group does not belong to or agree with. Nothing more. First marriage, no kids, no abuse, no cheating. I have not speculated on anything further, and have specifically said so in my posts, so I will ignore the rest of the scenarios you have laid out. They don’t apply here. Either to me or to the OP.

For you thoughts on my wedding: I only brought it up originally as we had a marriage where many of the guest were of a different Christian background, just as the OP. We also had none of the above issues, just as I assume the OP’s wedding has. First marriage, no kids, etc, etc.

So, in my situation, which is similar to the OPs wedding, if anyone had come to us expressing any of their issues with our marriage (ie invalid, adulterous, non-sacramental, etc.) it would NOT be something we would tolerate. They are free not to attend, but I don’t have any interest in what they think of the marriage of me to my bride. Period. Any more that you invite someone to tell you your marriage is somehow false leading up to your marriage. I feel it would be their issue, not mine. And I am not interested in which terms are being properly used and which aren’t according church teaching. It is the act of expressing these to others that bothers me. Wrong time, wrong place. Again, this is my opinion. If others are of the opinion they are somehow obliged to say these things, OK. They would be free to walk up and tell me and my bride their opinions. In turn, I would be free to tell them where they can put those opinions. Thats just how I see it.

“If you enforce no moral standards on your friends and relatives, and treat them the same no matter how they treat anyone else and no matter what they do, then I suppose that is your business.”

Again, I have made NO such claims. Where did you get this from? To repeat, it is my opinion that if your only objection to someones wedding is that it is in a different denomination that your own, not attending on that fact **alone **is not very compassionate. As a non-Catholic, reading some of the responses here indicates that the Church has NO objection to attending a wedding based only on its denomination. It does appear that you are free to avoid the wedding if you feel it is somehow objectionable, to be determined by each individual on their own. So, if you are NOT attending, it is because YOU have an objection. I don’t think that is very nice thing to do, but you are free to do it. Thats my opinion. Me having no tolerance is for the inappropriate expression of these before someones wedding, not simply a lack of attendance.

“Were I you, though, I would not be so bold as to say that you exceed everyone else in the world in imitating God’s love, for Christ did not tell us that those who would follow him were bound ignore the sins of others in the church.”

??? Where are you getting this from? My comment about Gods love (made sarcastically, I must note) was in response to a post that pretty plainly labeled all weddings outside his faith as “Public Formalization of Adultery” ceremonys using weddings in quotes. If you don’t see any problems with this type of statement, please feel free to add to it. Where are you getting lines like “exceed anyone else in the world” from?

I see some of your points, but I think you have unfairly put a LOT of words in my mouth that weren’t there to begin with!

So, to circle back to the OP: If you can go and smile, go! If you can’t smile, stay home. Thats as simple as I think I can make it! But if you don’t go, don’t make it your brothers problem! Its his (more realistically, his wifes!) day!

 

[Norseman82]

??? Where are you getting this from? My comment about Gods love (made sarcastically, I must note) was in response to a post that pretty plainly labeled all weddings outside his faith as “Public Formalization of Adultery” ceremonys using weddings in quotes. If you don’t see any problems with this type of statement, please feel free to add to it. Where are you getting lines like “exceed anyone else in the world” from?

Did you see the post that I had responded to and see the part that stated that the family member in question was divorced and did not obtain an annulment? According to the Bible, that is adultery.

 

[PassingThru]

Ahhhhhh, I see that now. My bad! Consider my direction toward you retracted!!

 

[sharmin]

I attended my sister’s “wedding” in a cheesy Las Vegas chapel about 2 years ago. If I could go back in time, I would not have attended. As a baptized catholic, she married a twice divorced non-believer. Perhaps if someone made a small stance against the marriage, she could of decided to look into her faith. To this day, she still does not attend Mass and to the best of my knowledge, she still does not realize the grave situation she has put herself in.

Then if she doesn’t realize it, it is not a mortal sin. One must understand the sin is mortal before he/she commits it or it is not mortal. Simply being told something is grave doesn’t mean someone completely understands it t obe so.

 

[johnnykins]

It is precisely these sorts of specific knotty issues where a truly pastoral - loving - decision is called for. The purpose of any such decision - whether to go or not - is to best effect and contribute to the salvation of all concerned: the brother, his fiancee, your family, her family, society in general. It’s a decision without a clear answer without knowing the individuals and the entire situation.

Without knowing the individuals and the dynamics at work, NO ONE on a mere forum can give you authoritative advice. It may be NOT GOING to the wedding is the best thing to do. Maybe explaining your decision and maybe not. It may be GOING is the best thing to do. Maybe explaining your decision and maybe not. Timing in any explanation may itself be an issue: explain later?

Often the final resolution of such things is years down the road.

I would consult your priest, consider what you believe is best and, after prayer, make what you believe to be the best decision you can. Then trust in God.

Honestly, I don’t know how anyone can advise you to do anything else.

 

[EasterJoy]

Wow EasterJoy, that was one heck of a response!!! Thanks! You make some good points, and I agree with most of what you say. But, I think you have strayed waaaaay off of my point, and drawn some conclusions that I have not said or implied! I think you are disagreeing with things I have not even touched on…

I see some of your points, but I think you have unfairly put a LOT of words in my mouth that weren’t there to begin with!

So, to circle back to the OP: If you can go and smile, go! If you can’t smile, stay home. Thats as simple as I think I can make it! But if you don’t go, don’t make it your brothers problem! Its his (more realistically, his wifes!) day!

I have this problem of responding to an entire question as if the person I was replying to held all the beliefs I cover. Sorry about that. Yes, the post does read as if I knew you had those attitudes, and you never went so far as to say any of that, and that is my fault. You do deserve apologies.

I mistakenly thought the “Public Formalization of Adultery” quote was referring to somebody who was taking of second wife in a marriage outside the Church without the benefit of annulment from the first marriage. Obviously, the Church teaches that marriages between baptized persons who are free to marry, even if illict from the point of view of Catholic parties not having their paperwork straight, are still valid. In other words, the kids of that kind of marriage were legitimate even back in the days when kids got that sort of nonsense laid on them. So, I missed the train there, too.

As far as the bastard comment, I thought our family was the only one that used Poor Bastard Child to mean the kid in the family (immediate or extended) who consistently misses out on favoritism for no explicable reason. Who knew?

As to the issue of what I’d do about someone in the family thinking my marriage was false…well, I am so sick of family systems where nobody can say what they think that I’d probably find the directness refreshing, as long as it was not abusive. If they couldn’t allow themselves to come because they thought we had the form wrong, or they thought a real annulment was bogus, that would be sad, but that’s the way it goes. If they thought I was going to be abused, again, you know, at least they care, even if their judgement is lousy. If they thought we were both going to hell and took a bit of relish at telling me so, or made it their business to sway others in the family who never asked their opinion, that is a horse of another color. That is itself abusive and controlling, and a good reason to give them a VERY wide berth until they repented of that attitude.

I think we’re on the same page, then: If the OP has to stay home, stay home, but be as decent about it as humanly possible. And do be ready for your decision to be taken as a rejection of the persons, and not of the arrangements. You may not have said any such thing, but what meaning someone chooses to put on what you say and do is their decision, not yours. Just be aware of that.

 

[that_name]

EasterJoy - when a baptized Catholic marries outside of the Church without dispensation, it is an invalid wedding. Illicit is a term that does not apply, it is valid or not - and Catholics are required to marry in the Church or to get a dispensation. Read the Canon law.

 

[Michael_Wood]

I believe it may benefit you and your relationship with your brother by re-considering a reversal of your position. Here’s why:
If you have expressed your views strongly enough,(which I’m sure you have), then he knows you do not condone what he is doing, However,if your brother still insists on his beliefs then as a loving sibling, I think you should attend the wedding anyway to show your support for your brother, Even though you disagree with his position.
Inflexibility and Intolerance have lost more temporarily straying Christians, permanently, than you know!
If you truly love your brother, you will see that the author of this Love is God through His Son, Jesus Christ, and you MUST do what our Lord would have done, that is to go to your brother’s wedding and be a beacon of God’s Love and Light to him during the ceremony.
Being more flexible in this matter will also ‘heap coals upon the head of the wayfarer’ and show that you can be both FIRM AND NEARBY!
When he finally DOES come back around,(as my Faith tells me he will), you will have been a loving sibling who never abandoned their brother, just as the Lord never abandons US in our time of need. On the contrary, it is at these times when He draws even closer to us so as not to lose us permanently from the fold. Please, for the sake of your brother’s soul, do likewise. You will never regret it, and your brother will remember your kindness for the rest of his life. Who knows, you may be able to gently, with patience, help guide him back and catch his new bride up into the fold as well. Proving the old adage that
“A Parishioner saved IS a Parishioner earned”!

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

I guess I should count myself lucky that so many Catholic friends and family attended our Public Formalization of Adultery ceremony my “wife” and I had this past September. We are hoping to have our first Bastard Child sometime next year. I just hope we have enough goats for the sacrificial alter to make it happen.

OK, obvious sarcasm aside, I have an honest question to those judging from on high. Would you feel the same if the roles were reversed? Would you smile and welcome with open arms those that condemned your marriage with the same terms you are condemning others? Looking for real responses here. And please don’t respond with something that amounts to “because I am right”.

Please don’t take these comments as The Catholic Authority, these are opinions. Most importantly apply them to your situation. Each circumstance is different which is why we, gratefully, have a marriage Tribunal to assess each situation with the attention it deserves and applying the Church’s assessment of God’s laws. All of which sounds authoritarian, I know, but I am so grateful that we have these Tribunals and have seen wonderful miracles come about during the process.

May your marriage and your children be ever blessed by God.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Ha, well, that whole paragraph was a stab at some posts on this board that directly state that any marriage not in their church (in this case it just happened to be Catholic) was a “Public Formalization of Adultery” ceremony. If this is the case, then my “wife” is not really my wife, and any children we have are of course bastards. Just using neck deep sarcasm to point out others incredible ability to be an example of Gods love… See, there is that sarcasm again!

So, is it fun living in Sin? : ok bad joke, couldn’t resist. Even the Church acknowledges that a Lutheran marriage is a valid marriage, if both parties are baptized. Here a baptized Catholic is held to a different level of accountability then someone who is not in full communion with the Catholic Church, but that’s a legal issue for the Magisterium to decide, not for me.

Mind you I was once a heathen married by a justice of the peace, before my heartfelt return to the Catholic Church and I married in the Church to a wonderful kind man who is agnostic. He offered to become Catholic, attended RCIA and supports my faith. I’m sure some here will say that he should have become Catholic, but that’s not how it works. God calls us to be what He chooses, in His time, and we get to listen and respond. It’s not for me to decide.

Mark’s first marriage in a Episcopalian would have been valid, except his first wife was already married twice before (no annulment), so Their marriage wasn’t vaild, meaning ours could be. and no, his kids are not bastards. Mark was baptized in a Baptist Church and the Catholic Church said the marriage is valid, therefore were free to marry. My first marriage wasn’t valid because I was Catholic married by a JofP. If I was not baptized Catholic, it would have been very different, but I was held accountable to the same level as this gentleman is. Yes, it was an invalid marriage. Perhaps this was part of God’s plan. I don’t pretend to know. So, perhaps I’m not the best Catholic to listen to. The choices we make can leave such a quagmire for the Church to sort out. It took a while to sort out the mess from our earlier bad choices. We owe so much to the Tribunals,often volunteers who do so much with so little!

Honestly, it all sounds to me like a bunch of Pharisee’s adhering to the Law. I can still hear Jesus saying that the greatest commandment is to Love one another. I will gladly leave marriage issues to the Magisterium and the Marriage Tribunals. When in doubt, always talk to your priest. Deference to the Magisterium, always. I’m not saying we ever deny the law, but perhaps we need to recognize that others don’t have the same awareness that we do.

I would definitely go to the wedding, but then Everyone knows my beliefs. I was honored when playing ImagineIff this Christmas with extended family and the question was “ImagineIff Maggie could invite any famous person over to her home, who would it be” Everyone slapped down the #1 card before they even read #2. Who was it?

Mother Theresa :getholy:

I’m no saint, but I’m humbled to know that others see my faith at work and that my grown up nieces and nephews know me by my love, not because I condemn them for not walking my path in life. When they need to talk, guess who they call? and they know I will always give them the Truth, with kindness. That is when I can share God’s Truth most effectively. I can say, “I don’t know, but I DO know that the closer I am to God, the happier my life is, the further I am, the more turmoil there is.”

anyway, it works for me. Just one humble opinion among many.

Many would tell me to be involved with my nephew and his girlfriend, who are expecting at 18yrs of age.Then again, they aren’t baptized Catholic so maybe it’s ok. These are such confusing times, I just believe that if we abuse people with the letter of the law we’ll lose them and they’ll lose out. I’m just grateful that they are not ending the life because people are telling them their lives will be ruined if they have the baby. Perhaps I should demand they get baptized in my faith and married before the baby comes or not be there for them?
What ever happened to, “yes, they’ll know we are Christians by our love”?

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy - when a baptized Catholic marries outside of the Church without dispensation, it is an invalid wedding. Illicit is a term that does not apply, it is valid or not - and Catholics are required to marry in the Church or to get a dispensation. Read the Canon law.

Yes, Catholics are required to get a dispensation. I didn’t say they weren’t. Still, it is my understanding that a Catholic who contracts a marriage with a baptised person in a church that does have valid baptism but is not in communion with Rome enters into a marriage that is illicit (prohibited) but valid.

Canon 1086.1 A marriage is invalid when one of the two persons was baptised in the catholic Church or received into it and has not by a formal act defected from it, and the other was not baptised.

Canon 1124 Without the express permission of the competent authority, marriage is prohibited between two baptised persons, one of whom was baptised in the catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act, the other of whom belongs to a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the catholic Church.